Automatic Transmission questions for the experienced

Have two transmissions to get rebuilt, a 47 RE 2001 diesel and a 69 727A small block

First question is how much better are the AlTO Red clutches and Kolene plates from the stock Mopar (Borg warner) Any reason to spend the extra money?

What shift kit do you like the best? B&M transgo ??

Both vehicles are street or drivers.

Thanks

Definitely Transgo shift kit. PM 70aarcuda, because he has rebuilt a bunch of transmissions He knows trans.

You leave out the most important part of deciding what to use when rebuilding your transmission.

power levels thru the trans.

Stock 2bbl 318, build it stock with minor durability tweaks.

Twin turbo 408 pushing 750hp, better upgrade.

Correct - knowing the expected power level and what it will be used for is the first thing to grasp. The diesel trans - used for towing - standard production material and steels is more than enough IF the trans is out together correctly. Same for the 727 if used for a street racer or cruiser. So much hype on these aftermarket clutches -

The trans-go shift kits are very common. The B&M Trans Pack is nearly the same as the TF-2 kit, but I think it costs more.

As mentioned power level and use, along with other mods may determine what materials to use. When I rebuilt the 727 for my near stock 318 (when I was working at a trans shop), I actually used some stock type frictions and steels (used) that were in near new condition that came out of another trans we were updating with the Alto frictions/kolene steels that was going into a drag race car.

The Raybestoes tan clutch frictions are very good. I've used (4) to 700 hp, 700 passes. You could still read the ink stamp. My current ride uses Alto's (5) in the high gear clutch, stock frictions in the directs. Excellent wear at 900hp. Red hard bands in both.
Doug

What are the dark grey/green frictions? I think the High Energy version from borg warner?
Bulk Part messed up an order and sent me them insted of the Alto Red clutches and I have never used them. How good are those?

I built my 727 in my 63 with all stock Mopar clutches and plates. And I use the Mopar seal kit also. Since I worked at a Dodge dealer for 24 years and did trans work I have some 727 clutches around and I use them. The only parts in my 727 that are not stock Mopar parts are the rear sprag (overrunning clutch) , the valve body as I use a Turbo Action reverse manual valve body and the converter which is a 9.5 Dynamic unit. Its a street car I race once or twice a year and its been holding up great since 2006. About the only other mod is I blocked the accumulator. Runs in the 10's and has not given me any trouble. Ron

Usually the frictions with waffle grid or multiple "cuts" are for the front clutch/high clutch. Those with only a few or no cuts are for the rear/forward clutch. There are exceptions of course but generally that's how they roll.

Thanks for the replies everyone, The 47RE is going in a stock Cummins truck with a tuner, the 727 in a near stock 360 for street driving.
My young gun son in his cummins truck likes to test the limits of most things, including the transmission.

Yikes!! Then install a bolt in overrunning clutch, install a Sonnax l/r servo piston and he should be good for off-roading. If he is going to tow near or past the GVWR then consider adding a 5th disc to the front clutch, install a cast aluminum or billet accumulator piston, and add a good cooler. The converter is usually ok but we had issues from time to time with the stator overrunning clutch failing some times. If it does the best converter out there for the money is the Mopar Reman 12.2" diesel converter -'it has an improved stator ORC that has had no failures since we went to that design several years ago. Plus now they have the high dollar Sonnax front cover on theM. Tell your son to keep the shiny side up on the Jeep (and the truck).

Thanks transman, the Jeep has a 5.2 Magnum swap with a stock 727 from his 80 ramcharger.
The 727 build is for my stock 1979 360 Warlock..I cant stand the lockup trans in it and I am swapping the engine to a rebuilt 360 from a 74. Gonna do another non lock up trans for it at the same time.

Nice. Have any pictures of the Warlock? I haven't seen one in 30 years.
If you lived closer, I'd give you a 4-wheel drive 727. I have two just sitting around missing the transfer cases.

By the mid to late 70's we started to make the transmissions shift smoother and smoother without trying to sacrifice durability. The lock up versus non-l/u units really only differ from the earlier units by reducing the front clutch friction count down to clean up the 2/3 shift and smooth out reverse engagement. Some valve body orifice and ball changes to slow the rear clutch apply and some other tweaks. If you are changing the trans just to make it shift better you can avoid that by a good shift kit, 4 disc front clutch, lose the wavy snap ring in the front clutch and go flat, block the accumulator and block the lockup module spring to prevent lockup ( if you don't want lockup ). Better yet - if you want to drive in lockup and have control of it - install a late model electric lockup valve body. Drill the case like you would do for a trans brake for the bulkhead connector and run a wire to the dash for a switch. You can spend some time to make that automatic if you wish - depends on your inclination on auto versus manual control.

Needs to be pointed out here that Mopar transmissiions were built to9 the original engine's torque output. So a 318 trans is the weakest of all transmissions that would be built in that case. Transman should enlighten us how to get that trans to a higher torque level.
It's similar with 904s with the 318 getting the 998 and the 360 getting the 999.

I became aware of this when I bought a "bulletproof" rebuilt motorhome transmission only to find out it was a 2-barrel 383 tranny dressed as the MH transmission. I didn't know about the ID numbers until later, to my chagrin.

R

There is nothing weaker in a 2bbl trans than a 4bbl trans for the same model year. The main difference between them is to accomplish shift quality and shift timing. Between years there were changes - we made improvements for high horsepower and torque and durability, but a properly built 383 2bbl trans behind a 440 drag motor making north of 500 hp is a piece of cake.

Think about this for a second. No one used billet parts - none - back in the 70's and 80's and those drag cars were going low tens and high to mid 9's. Race converter and a TA Cheetah was the "soup for the day" and no one was failing units. And 99.9% didn't have bolt in overrunning clutches either. Everything was relatively new back then - parts wise in the transmissions being used.

The point i am trying to make - most guys can successfully use a "standard" 727 if it is properly built. The biggest obstacle is understanding what hard parts to throw in the garbage versus reuse.

The best core to start with is one that came from a car that was crashed and before it was crashed came from Ma or Pa kettles car - never got beat on and probably never saw overheat conditions. Sorry for the verbose reply - but you asked.

Probably the vast majority of street racers, cruisers, bracket cars can use a 4 disc front drum, 3 or 4 planetary pinion carriers, flexible front band, non- billet servo parts IT YOU USE GOOD PARTS.

As for the 904, 998, 999 - number of clutches and band widths - the main unit's differences.

Then again there are guys (and gals) that can ruin an anvil in a sandbox with a rubber hammer.

The lockup trans is the original and untouched in my truck. Never liked the shudder or vibration it creates in lock up mode. It would need a freshen anyway. Just going with the 1969 727 A .

Here is a pic of the truck.

Understood sthemi - next time i'm that way i'll stop by and pick it up if you want to sell it. ( i can't seem to get the smiling face to post here ). My freind had a Lil Red and towed his 64 Plymouth drag car with it - those pipes sure did roar when he got on it from a light. Another friend has it now and it sets around not getting much use - i told him to sell it so someone else could enjoy it.

Or maybe overbuilt.

Easy to swap the lock-up into nonlock-up. Swap the input shaft, reaction support, valve body.
Doug

And torque converter

There really is not much difference in a 318 transmission and a 440 transmission. Most of the major changes were year specific.
A few pieces that may be different are the 3 pinion or 4 pinion planetary, and a 3 or 4 or 5 clutch front drum and the number of springs in the drum. There may also be a different governor weight for different shift points, but the rest is pretty much the same. Some of the year changes would be if it has a rear pump, cable shift, cable park, early (pre-67) converter spline count, narrow or wide front drum bushing which also caused a change to the pump support. That just some of the '60-mid '70 changes before lockup converter, and the change in the spline pressure angles.

Those are what I used in the hi torque Diesel builds when I was a DTT installer in the early 2000's

Thanks all for contributing,
one more question, the rebuild kits are 62-70 and 71 and on, what is the difference?
Only the filter?

Filter, metal seal ring diameter for the input, speedo adapter seals, tail shaft gasket (62-65). 71 and up stator support rings are usually plated. I have to put a shout out to Transman. He started me on my trans journey over 35 years ago.
Doug

Doug captured most of it for the gasket and seal kit. If you buy the master kit with frictions and steel separator plates there are thickness differences from the early to later MY units - I forgot where the break was. If I recall correctly the early were thin then we went to thick on both the steels and frictions. The later design had greater heat capacity so they were less likely to potato chip from overheating. There were some design changes along the way regarding seals - primarily for wear resistance and cold weather operation and to prevent heat aging - the better kits, maybe all at this point have those improvements.

If you are positive no one has taken the trans apart and updated it or made a lockup out of a non or vice versa - then order the kit for your MY application. The later style feeds the rear clutch though the rear seal on the input shaft and a seal on the rear clutch piston support where the early units fed the rear clutch through the two seals on the input shaft. Many guys forget that large seal on the rear clutch piston support - you get a no drive condition and sometimes a drive/creep in neutral condition. All I can say for guys doing one is go slow - take pictures, match seal in the kit against where it lives in the trans before

throwing out the old ones. Nothing more disturbing than getting the trans done and find a seal left over without explanation. The correct year service manual is usually helpfulll too.

Doug - i think we are working on 40 years -

Thanks Much Transman.