B/RB serpentine belt conversion

If I recall correctly, there was someone who had worked out a serpentine belt conversion for a B/RB engine without spending stupid amount of money for an aftermarket kit.

The long unsupported run of the twin belts from the A/C compressor on the left to the alternator on the right has me thinking of going down this path. There are no matched pair belts to be found these days and I haven't had any luck finding two belts that will track the same.

Jerry is the guy that has that stuff. There's another guy on the board who worked for a belt company that got me matched belts a couple times. I can't find his contact info at the moment...

SD Concepts. I have his system, have not run it yet, but really like the use of readily available service parts.

I have this setup on a few cars both serpentine and normal, was still not cheap but far more affordable then the several thousand dollar systems.

http://www.cvfracing.com/

I have the serpentine setup and their PS pump on a truck - all their stuff I have bought looks and fits perfect.

feets check out sdconcepts.com all of our big block kits are posted.

Will a Sanden 508 move the same volume as the old RV2?
Keep in mind that I have twin evaporators and run 72 ounces of R12 in the system.

that's a good question. I don't know. it will eventually get cold, ultimately the new compressor will circulate all the refrigerant but maybe at a slightly slower rate? everyone that runs the 508s runs them on single evaporator systems that I know of.

This is a BIG black car in Texas.

The RV2 pump keeps it cool. I'm concerned about the little 508 being big enough to do the job.

Are your pulleys set to overdrive, underdrive, or 1:1 the compressor?

they are whatever the factory ratio was on the dodge magnum truck engines. we make a full size crank pulley at just about 7.25 in dia and the 508 compressor pulley is just about 5.25 in dia

Maybe go with a 709 ? From memory, the 508 is a 5 piston design and the 709 is a 7 piston (bit higher volume)

And if all else fails...

http://www.sanden.com/contact.html

U.S. Headquarters
Sanden International (USA), Inc.
601 S. Sanden Blvd.
Wylie, TX 75098


They should know Texas heat at least.

The compressor only runs about 25% maybe 30% of the time in a Dakota. It may just end up running a higher duty cycle. On a daily driver this may mean wearing our more quickly, so instead of lasting over 100k miles it may only last 50k. How long will it take you to rack up 50k miles?

Wylie is only 15 miles from work but it might as well be on another planet when you consider that I live 23 miles the other way and I'm not going to fight that traffic.

I tried looking at their site but didn't get much info.

Do you know if the 120 amp denso alternator is able to be fit into the kit? I would buy this if there is a way to fit the alternator in the andyf kit to this serpentine setup.

Believe it or not, the compressor runs all the time on these systems.

http://imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/295/page07.htm

I do have the Unwired Tools A/C servo replacement for Mercedes cars. My car has the AutoTemp II system that Chrysler sold to Mercedes in 1975. I'm not sure if it'll stop the full time compressor or not.

we run a nippendenso alternator in our kit. so the one andy has in his kit should work. there are a few variations of the nippendenso alternator but we have adapters for most if needed.

on the ac the 508 will circulate all the refrigerant, it just might take a little longer than the RV2 and by that I mean its going to 30 seconds to a minute longer at idle. obviously cool down will take as long as it does based on how much flow you have going through the condenser in front of the radiator.

I don't think running it all the time will be a problem. these are meant to run in production cars. there probably is some peak duty cycle you don't want to exceed but don't forget these are used on minivans these days that have rear seat ac as well and they work just fine there.

I have a Sanden on my 68 BLACK Charger with the original evap, I am in Katy Texas & when it is 106 outside it will still freeze you out, I put an adjustable thermostatic cycling switch on it so it wont freeze up the evap. I have done 2 Chargers this way.
I also did intall a r134 condenser on them.

I run (and like) a 508 type compressor on my "single" system. From memory, the 508 moves somewhat less refrigerant vs the RV2. For full performance with a double system you may be better off with the higher capacity Sanden.

Bouchillon and Classic Auto Air in Florida seem to be pretty knowledgeable about these systems. Maybe call and get their recommendation.

Feets if you do want the larger compressor, I can mod our bracket for your application

I have 2 cars with the Sandens and they run all the time. I've got the cycle switch on the Fury but it never turns it off. I didn't not have the evap apart (had replaced that a few years prior) so I wrapped the sensor around the pipe and put the goo over it as Bouchillon suggests. It gets pretty cold, but if the car has sat out in the sun or I encounter a lot of stop and go traffic it fades. Keep in mind that's with all the heat of a twin turbo set up under the hood.

Classic air on my Charger and for whatever reason that system blows COLD! Also a triple black car, but only Chicago. It works better than the Fury for whatever reason. Both cars had all new parts.

I've just ordered a 709 compressor to mock up with our kit. will be here at the end of January. will know if there are any fitment issues then.

also what is the part number of the nippendenso alternator that andyf recommends? I can get one of those as well and mock it up so we know what fits and what mods are needed.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but the serpentine systems on the front of B and RB motors look like an awful lot of "stuff" hanging off the front of the motor. Is there an advantage other than bling?

I think you have to recognize there are 2 different types of conversion.
The one pictured just uses serpentine belts. But is a multi belt conversion.
Jerry's uses a single belt like the modern motors do.

The main reason for either is the dual belt a/c systems have issues today, finding 2 belts the same size, where one doesn't flap around while the other is already tight. Less slip etc..

Jerry's has the advantage of a single belt running it all. Not having to pull 2 belts to get to the one you want to change etc..

Of course the standard argument applys. isn't more belts better because even if you lose one, you could still be running with 1 belt etc..

I have always prefered the 1 belt and 1 spare from the last change anyway. now instead of a pile of them in the trunk I only need 1.

our kit also uses a spring loaded tensioner and modern more compact and lighter weight components. we have a 120 amp alternator option comes off a dodge magnum truck engine. zf style power steering pump that just about all modern cars are using. sanden ac compressor mounted mounted in various locations to fit your application.

Yes, there is a FUNCTION to it. My Imperial is being built for reliability, looks be damned.

In years past it was possible to find drive belts in matched pairs. That was necessary for AC and alternator function. Matched belts are now a thing of the past. Most parts stores and employees have never heard of such a thing. In fact, our OReilly's commercial sales rep stopped by on Monday and I mentioned the belts. He was completely lost and had no knowledge of them at all.

I showed him the matched pair I ordered from Mercedes for the 79 450SL we have in the shop and had to explain the problem.

The factory belt routing on the Imperial has a twin belt unsupported run of about two feet between the compressor and alternator. I was unable to find matched belts during the build and did the best I could with what was available.
I threw those belts twice on the Power Tour.

This car WILL be reliable. It will have readily available components where possible. I want to have a worry free trip anywhere I go on the North American continent.


Unlike the vast majority of people here, my car is intended to be driven. Anywhere. Anytime. Any weather. I'll drive it in my heavy commute to work and I'll drive it across the country. In fact, one of my planned trips has rubber on the road in Nova Scotia despite the fact that I live in Dallas, Texas.

Jerry,

I run a Nippondenso (round plug) alternator for the last 15 years on a low deck. This is what Andy first suggested. The alternator was from the early Toyota 4 Runners.

I'm interested in putting my AC back on however, my car is also non-power steering. Do you offer a low deck configuration that doesn't include power steering?

yes we do.

if pulley diameter ratio remains the same, can smaller diameter pulleys be used ?

you could overdrive the compressor, but then you limit its life expectancy. and your over driving the other accessories too. may or may not be a big deal but it may at 6000+ rpm, eventually the bearings will reach a critical speed.

That was my concern. I wanted to know if the ratio was the same as factory.

our ratio is the same as factory. we didn't under drive or overdrive the accessories. that way all the countless hours of durability testing done by the oems are what we repackage and sell for the classic car market.

I looked at my alternator last night, it appears it will work with your setup. I will be calling you in a few weeks to order up a kit. I also have an aftermarket a/c kit, so I have to research to see what compressor I have. I would need to get your power steering pump, I have a trw now.

all of our parts come off stock cars. the power steering pump we use comes from a mid to late nineties jeep Cherokee or grand Cherokee. a lot of newer cars use the zf pump as well. there are lots of different reservoir options.

On the alternators, you may have to remove a little material on the two lower screw bosses in the unit so that it clears the mount. Too many variances for Jerry to compensate for especially if you get a chinese unit like I did from RockAuto. If you get a legit Nippondenso oe unit it will probably be a non issue, but still check just to make sure. I really like how his looks and that replacement service units are readily available. Well worth the money and less blingy than the others out there. Anybody read a Hot Rod magazine from a few months ago showing a 66-7 b-body with a hemi that Rad Rides by Troy did? They used a Billet Specialties unit that had a part fail on a photo shoot road trip and could only source it from BS. Not cool. My neighbor has run BS stuff in the past on his rods and said thats a known failure issue with the idlers and can only be had through the company. Not helpful or fun on sunday if you are cruising where there are no BS distributors around.

The sanden's are rated at 8.4 & 9.5 cubic inches displacement per rpm respectively and the rv2 is rated at 10 to 12 ci (varying reports), barely better on the cooling front but i have no doubt is no where as efficient hp wise as the newer design of the sanden units

Take this for what it's worth, I have an engineer friend that works for Gates. He told me that as a result of modern manufacturing techniques and process controls virtually all belts of the same part number are "matched". With the exception of an alternator locking up I've never actually had a belt fail.

while that maybe true about the gates belts. i'm sure there are some tolerances that belts fall within. now i'm not a belt engineer but I would think the rubber may have different shrink rates etc. last time I ran v belts was almost 20 years ago and maybe the tolerances are better now.

on another note, if v belts were great, the oems would still run them. you can transmit more power with a serpentine belt with less tension and less load on your bearings, less parasitic loss due to friction, and ultimately I think the serpentine belt will last longer.

these new style belts have undergone lots of hours of durability testing thanks to the oems and their search for efficiency.

I just got the 700 series compressor in and will get a comparison put up later this afternoon after I had a chance to measure it and compare it the 508 series.

The amount of cars still on the road today, that require matched belts, have decreased considerably. With this taken into account, there is less demand for matched sets of belts which translates to parts stock which has low to no turnover which can mean no more matched sets. Parts being stocked are like having employees. If the employee makes you money you keep them around, if they don't make you money they get booted.Unless you are talking about certain federal employees then its the other way around. There may be some companies around that have matched sets, you will just need to hunt them down. Gates had a coding system which if you could decipher it would let you know if the belts were from the same run/drum so you could get a matched set without having them taped together. I've been away from them for too long so I don't remember how to decipher the code. Also its beneficial to make sure all the accessories line up in the same plane when running v-belts. If you look at them from the side, you will see that various units are skewed which contributes to belt squeal, belts being tossed etc.

Get together with your buddy and smack him upside the head for buying into engineered arrogance.

I threw a pair of Gates belts on the Power Tour.
I threw a SECOND pair of Gates belts on the Power Tour.

My pulleys are in alignment. Tension is set properly. Engine accessories are not angled.
I put the belts on and you can watch one flop more than the other.

Both times I threw the belts it came after releasing the throttle at high rpm.

The belts are not a perfect equal length. Either the width or the length is varying by just enough to prevent equal loading.

Feets, you are correct in questioning the "engineering techniques". Most likely that since serp belts are more prevalent than v's, v's are taking a backseat and they don't want to spend the time to mate up the matched pairs. Too much corporate koolaid being swigged. Belts that run accessories have to be matched when they are on the same pulleys, no ifs and or buts about it.

Will they allow you to look at the code on the belts to match them up? I know that to match them you should match up the lot number and date to get an exact match. I haven't tried this in auto zone, only through our warehouse for fans we run here.

your best bet at finding matched belts is to try something like motion industries. they are an industrial supply and could get you matched belts, but they won't be at auto store pricing. these guys make 1000s and 1000s of v belts, the odds that one autozone or where ever would have a dated and matched belt is probably slim to none.

just got done looking at the 709 and it will fit our brackets for our low mount ac kit. these are a little more expesive than the 508 series but if it gives you the volume you need its doable.

Jerry, Does your kit price include compressor ps pump and alt with all hardware?

no, we use mostly factory parts so you would have to source those yourself. plus that way you can get them at your favorite autoparts store and get the warranties. or we've had guys go junkyard shopping for their mud bogging trucks and get all the accessories dirt cheap at the pick and pull

This was misleading to me then

the color at the top is for anodized color options. its basically $100 per color. we can get all the parts in for $100 for a complete kit. some guys have had the brackets one color and the pulleys a different color, that's $200.00

the kit features the modern accessories we designed into. the kit doesn't include the accessories. some guys want brand new parts, some guys want used parts. we designed in the most factory parts of any after market kit to get you as close to a production setup as possible. if you want we can supply all the parts, we do for a lot of international customers.

ideally we wanted to highlight the important features of our kits. for the price of our kit, your getting all the billet brackets, spacers and hardware and our engineering effort to make sure it all works together.

Another option would be convert your accessories to multi groove pulleys and use multi groove belts with the OEM location and tensioners.

You will want to ditch the stock alt for a Denso unit anyway and most of them come with that style pulley so you need a water pump and crank pulley and for the PS pump either a new pulley or make a late model pump fit.

You might have to go with a Sanden compressor to do this unless there is a multi groove clutch that will fit the RV2.

March and 440Source have pulleys.

http://marchperformance.com/chrysler/chr...ne-pulleys.html

http://store.440source.com/Billet-Aluminum-Pulleys/products/136/

Kevin

Jerry, I'm a bit disappointed now, too.

When your kit features something that means those items are not only noteworthy and desirable but they're also included with the kit.

fea·ture

/ˈfēCHər/

noun: feature; plural noun: features

a distinctive attribute or aspect of something.
"safety features like dual air bags"

synonyms: characteristic, attribute, quality, property, trait, hallmark, trademark;



So, your kit ACCOMODATES the compressor, alternator, and pump. It does not FEATURE those items.

I'd be plenty upset if I paid $650 for a kit that didn't have the costly stuff I expected to see in it.

Feets if I sold the kits for $650 including all these parts, then i'd be working for free and wouldn't make any kits. a lot of these serpentine kits are selling for $2500+ we are brining out an "affordable" kit. I know to most mopar guys even if something is free its not affordable enough so it is what it is.

the only way I sell the "expensive" components is brand new

alternator is $150.00
power steering pump is $135 with reservoir
tensioner is $70.00
ac compressor is $150-200
water pump is 80-120 depending on which one you want

you can spend 650-700 in accessories. I've had guys buy the $350 flaming rive alternator, because it was powder coated black. some guys wanted to run a mechanical fan on their setup, there's some extra cost there too.

I try and provide a kit that at least allows the entry level guy to get into one of the serpentine belt kits. I know not everyone is made of money. you can always buy accessories a piece at a time. I've had guys buy my pulleys one each when their funds would allow.

sorry you guys are disappointed. i'll look into the wording and see if it makes sense to change it. maybe we should offer the all inclusive kit as well on the website so there is no confusion.

Being in the auto industry makes me very aware of the cost of these components. That's what made your kit look so attractive.

If something is featured, it is a highlighted included item. You don't include the parts so there is no way they can be featured items.

You need to change your verbiage.

it does say that the kits start at $xxx.xx so a complete kit can be put together but your looking at more around $1400 for a complete setup with new parts. maybe that will push you to buy the billet kit at $2500 I don't know, again we are trying to get more and more people to use these kits, so we offer them at low entry level pricing. I don't know if you can do that with any other kit on the market.

I do appreciate your feed back

Please state clearly what the customer is getting for their money.

The B/RB high mount kit shows:
A/C bracket (likely a second one in the back)
alternator bracket
tensioner
crank pulley
water pump pulley
120 amp alternator
508 compressor
steering pump

The buyer needs to supply their own belt.

For $650 that's a good buy but odd that the belt isn't included.

If I'm paying $650 for three brackets I think I'll put my mill to work and build my own.


I went back and read the serpentine belt page. It's full of grammatical errors.
Please tell me what comes standard in the kits. I will rewrite the text at the top of the page (making only necessary content and grammatical changes) and shoot it back to you. That way your web developer can cut and paste the text for a quick fix.

I realize this thread is WAY old... but after letting my car sit forever, I finally got to hear it run with Jerry's kit on it. No more squeakies!!

440 serp belts

Sadly I went to the SDConcepts web site and it appears to be gone.