Mopar stage 6 heads

Hey there guys !!! I'm looking at a set of Mopar stage 6 heads to buy part # p4532796
They are brand new in the box ....just had a couple questions about them ...

Cc for for comp ?
Flow?
Bolt on a normal intake without spacers ?
Angle or straight plug ?
I heard that there were casting with cracking issues also ?

They would be going on a street driven car that will see a decent amount of milage !!

Any help would be awesome !! Thanks

All I can remember on em is the intake ports are higher so for a B you would need an RB intake (evidently the height increase is exactly the difference in heights) & as you know head/block milling and OE heights/head gasket thicknesses will require slight adjustments from that when mocking up to check. EDIT If you need spacers for a B intake get ahold of Jerry at SD Concepts a board sponsor here. He made some for me for a SB & they were works of art (dead on perfect), for reasonable money too

what RR said.... and the exhaust port is raised some so it will make header fitment a treat. "IF" you are using an RB block, there were some RB specific intakes made in 4150 and 4500 configuration, but they have been discontinued for years. Prior to that RB guys had to use the spacers and a regular big block intake. Dwayne Porter (Porter Racing Heads) has a lot of experience with these heads.... and probably won't recommend them if you haven't already made the purchase. I'm thinking for a street driven piece, there's better tools for the job.

Leave 'em in the box. The don't flow any better OOTB than a iron 906 or 452. Straight plug. 440 Manifold on 383 or 400. Spacers on a 440 to use a 440 manifold. Spring pockets flood the seal with oil unless you machine an outlet. Pain in the butt head.

Info;

QC on the Stage 6's suck at best, if they are still new in the box and are not FREE then I would pass on them.

Trick flows are the BEST bang for your buck.

LOL, yep...unless they're free I'd pass on them. Pretty much anything other than a factory iron head is better than a Stage VI. You'd be better off buying used ones that have already had the issues corrected. Plus, I wouldn't buy any used ones that didn't already have port work done by a good shop. New ones will need a ton of work to make them useable.

They are worth considering if the following applies.....

-they are really cheap

-all the qc issues have already been addressed by a shop that is very familiar with them

-they are really really cheap

Are these worth porting?

?

Like others have said, stock they are pathetic but ported is another story. The issues come if you can do it yourself or if you have to pay someone. If you have to pay someone 1000.00 to port them there are way better options out there.

They appear to be the same vintage as the new-in-box set I had Dwayne prep for me in 2000. In addition to the porting, they also required new valve guides, and some significant chamber work & milling to equalize & reduce the chamber volumes. In addition, the rocker arm pedestal / valve stem geometry was jacked up until I found a brand of rockers & shaft pedestal shim stack / lash cap combination that corrected the geometry.

The end product performed very well, but the cost in money & time to get to that point was way past what I'd expected when I purchased the bare castings.

That's why Dwayne emphasized "really cheap" in his caveats for them.

By the looks of those exhaust ports, someone has already done some porting.

If you had an untouched virgin pair of castings....... By the time you buy all the parts, take care of the "usual" things that are typically wrong with those heads, do a valve job, bowl blend, flat mill and assembly........ It can very quickly add up to over $1000-1200.
That's if they don't have any of the more serious issues they sometimes have, and you don't have to replace the guides, and don't need severe duty parts installed.

The only "cost effective" way to have those heads done, and have the issues taken care of is to do much of it yourself.

It's hard to give an actual price on those things because without having them on hand to inspect, there's no way of knowing how good or bad a particular set is.
Some aren't too bad....... Others are a real mess.

Here's some numbers from a std stage vi with the CNC'd chambers option.
Ferrea 5000 series 2.14/1.81 valves. This is what you got ootb:

Lift--------in/ex
.100---67.4/52.3
.200--126.3/108.5
.300--181.3/137.7
.400--215.0/144.8
.500--235.0/149.1
.550--236.9/149.1
.600--238.8/149.1
.650--240.8/149.1
.700--242.7/149.1

Valve job, back cut, blend bowls:

Lift-------in/ex
.100---66.6/53.0
.200--151.2/123.6
.300--201.7/166.8
.400--242.6/178.5
.500--263.8/183.2
.550--260.0/187.0
.600--261.1/194.2
.650--261.1/197.7
.700--261.1/199.6

This is about what you can expect for mild prep work.
If you want to get into the 290+cfm range on the intakes, you'll have to do some real porting.

The head these numbers came from is one of the versions that had the really huge guide bosses. Some of the later versions had much smaller guide bosses, and those took less work to get the numbers up around 290.

I just looked through my notes......
I have some numbers from a set that had a date of 03/2005 on the box.
These had the much smaller guide bosses compared to the head the numbers above came from. It also had some rough carbide work done in the bowls.
I got 270/190 from that head ootb.......so they are definitely not all created equal.
Of course, I also see it was over 90cc chamber volume.

I bought these when I got my 575 crate engine way back when. They have not been touched by me. I have not touched a thing on the heads that are being run now. I would like to see how far I can go with these heads since I already have them.

Looking closer at the exhaust ports in the pics, it looks like they're CNC ported.

You should see if you can get a couple pics of the chambers, bowls, and intake port openings.

This is what I have handy at the moment.

Just one of the intake.

That head is already CNC ported.
Probably wouldn't take much at all to get those into race ready condition.

I've never had a set of those in my shop. I wonder who they had do the CNC work.

What's that part number and date on the box?


When you get a chance, see if you can get a close up chamber shot......like this:

Ok, I will dig em out in the morning.

Close up of the intake and casting date 8-15-96

Exhaust pic

Chamber shot

Next

Worth spending the dough?

I guess that depends on how much you're willing to spend to get them ready to run, and what your expectations are from them.

If you're trying to make 700hp+, I'd say use something else.
Depending on exactly what it would take to make those a ready to bolt on pair of heads, and you were looking to make under 700hp...... Then they might be worth it.

At a minimum they need $500-600 worth of parts, someone to measure everything up, check the valve job, more than likely need surfacing, etc...... It's an easy $1000 bill if there are no major issues.
Without being able to evaluate the short turn work, I'd say those would probably flow in the 285-300cfm range as they are..... If the short turn is decent.
You could easily spend another $200-300 detailing the port work a bit.

The chambers look kinda deep........ Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were in the 90cc range.
Might want to grab a head gasket and set it on there and see if there is an overhang issue.

Sounds reasonable. I'll send you a pm.

Dwayne is giving you good advice , I'll add one thing I learned ...

Put them BOTH on a block before you do anything , make sure they drop on the dowel pins AND that you can get ALL the head bolts in. I had a set of the 383/440 street castings ... Stage 6 core based ... one head was ok , the other head dropped on the dowel pins and only 2 head bolts would go in, the dowel pin holes were drilled at an angle.

Those heads would have maximum value on a 600hp engine built on a 400 block. The chambers do appear deep so let's assume they are indeed 90cc. They would give a comp ratio between 10.0 and 10.5:1 using a zero deck flattop piston and 0.039" gasket. Probably run on midgrade. The combustion chamber general shape isn't bad.
Putting them on a 400 block lets you use a 440 intake and that opens up more choices, and I believe better choices.

Oil collecting in the extra-deep valve spring pockets could be drained off with a hand drill or a die grinder with a cutoff wheel. Slots just have to work, they don't have to be precise.

That's my

R.

I have an interesting set I got from 440Jim.

Dwayne may remember them as they were a joint effort by Dwayne, Dan Costello, and Ryan J.

Real Cool Epoxied heart shaped runners and relocated ports to MW/Indy.
Maybe Dwayne recalls the flow #'s. I havent used them yet.

These will be going on a Mopar 575 hp, stage 6 head crate engine, that has been untouched, sans a set of Harlan sharp 1.6 rockers. It should be a bolt on application when done. Just looking to better my flow.

I love it when guys say stage 6 heads will only put out 600 horsepower. I'll have to tell my Friend that run 9's in his street legal Duster. LOL Trust me, in the right hands they will surpass that number.

I had them on my 70 440-6 charger. They did have some work and they were milled to 78cc.... They ran great for me and they don't look like big blocks of metal like some aftermarket heads.

Same here. I was trying to recall if MP ever listed a CNC-ported Stage VI prior to the Chapman offerings, but I simply don't know.

CNC'd or not, they still look like they could benefit from a good bit of in the ports. Lots of drop-outs where the cutter isn't even close to the casting, so it must have been a pretty conservative program, too.

You're not planning on running that crate engine w/o tearing it down & inspecting everything, are you? Some of the MP crate engines were real P's of S that need significant fixing before they should have ever been started. Very scary...

I have run this engine straight out of the crate with no significant inspection since the day I got it back in 1997. I have had no issues other than slow et's

Dwayne that set of heads you did for me are still on the same 498 short block running 10.2's in SoDak. I sold the car to a friend of mine noting that it was a "roller that runs".... it was tired and needed a new short block and the heads freshened. It ran a string of 9.93 passes at Famoso prior to the sale. He ran it for two years and sold it... it's still getting beat on the last I heard. That was the most docile engine I've ever had. Shift light set at 5600, trapped at 6200. Low rpm, easy on parts (most of them stock.... LY rods, factory main caps, stock welded stroker crank). Great running mill in a 3380 big car.

I'm sure many a Mopar 575hp crate motor owner would be happy with an 11.27 @ 118 time slip(unless it was in a 2200lb car).
Depending on the overall combo and where you're racing, that doesn't seem that bad at all to me.

Jay..... Sounds like everyone has gotten their money's worth out of that thing!!

440Pursuit....... The credit for that intake port layout goes to Mike Doty. He's the one that came up with that.
From memory, I think those heads flowed around 340. The best non-Chapman stage 6's I've seen. About 700hp from a 470 with a flat tappet cam on pump gas.

In my 2001 catalog I show a few different options for ported stage 6's.
P4876186- assy with 2.14/1.81 valves
P4876187- assy with 2.18/1.81 valves

They show 2 different CNC ported heads "machined for 2.18 intake and 1.81 exhaust" valves, but then the two different part numbers are listed as either:
P4876382- flat tappet cam(lifts up to .650)
P4876383- roller tappet cam(lifts over .600)
With a foot note stating that MW heads require offset pushrods.

If I had to guess....... I'd say the description of those two part numbers is incorrect.
I think they are bare heads and that one was std port and the other MW port.
(I realize these two numbers at one point were used for the Chapman heads, but I didn't think had arrived on the scene yet in 2001)

There is also number P4876991, which is listed as a service replacement assy for the 575hp crate motor.......90cc chamber.

And P5007484- "hi ratio assy, 78cc chamber"

Blofish, what part number is on the box for the heads you have?

Right; They were released in 2003... just in time for Steve Dulcich to get a set for that year's Engine Masters event (after the Moparts.com team had been told they wouldn't be legal, IIRC).

Oh, I had (have?) the flow #s for the Moparts EMC Stage VI heads... somewhere. Best as I can recall, they peaked about 345 on the intakes, pretty much what you said.

The 469" enginemasters entry made over 700hp, those heads had some interesting work done to them. If I remember right they flowed about 330cfm before Dwayne tweaked them after I sold them to Jim.

I don't think Cummins Recon was building them in 97 so you are probably safe.

Are the heads posted above the heads that were on that engine?

Dwayne beat me to it ... Brianwo LOANED the heads for the build , I bought them from him after the contest was over and Sold them to Jim along with the modified intake and the Erson rockers that were set up on them.

Mike Doty did an outstanding job designing the port on that head within the constraints of the rules, which Parkhurst was nice enough to change mid contest after the spring pockets were raised so a longer valve could be used ... the way they should have been originally ... who is the rocket scientist at MP that thought it was a great idea to use stock length iron head valves in that head ???

The boxes are all ready packed up and on there way to UPS. I did send the boxes with the heads.

aah, the glorious stage 6. the mothership wanted stock length valves, and stock rockers, hence the ridiculously deep valve spring pockets and push rod intrusions. i was on a back order list for a set of those when they first came out, but the two years i was on the list gave me ample opportunity to investigate their foibles. i would (and did) pass.

What intake manifold? I suspect I know the answer already, though.

Yeah, right after he bought the bare heads from me. They were an oddball deal, too, since they had nice CNC'd chambers, but otherwise stock as-cast ports.

M1 single plane.

No, they were ordered shortly after getting the engine. I put them on a shelf and never touched them.

Slightly off topic, but has anyone ever seen an independant dyno test of a unmolested 575hp crate engine?
Depending on how the heads were prepped.... It seems like that could be a stretch.
I would think "some" amount of bowl work would have had to be done to get that combo to that power level.

The Stage VI-specific full-width (no valley cover required) 4150 flange version? If so, just a "heads up" -- no pun intended -- that is not a very good intake as cast from what I've seen.

Not that I recall, only the iron-head version that was rated quite a bit lower.

Here something I find interesting about the specs for the 505hp and 575hp motors.
The 505 motor is listed as 9:1 with flat tops, the 575 as 11.25:1 with flat tops.
The service replacement head for the 575 motor is listed as 90cc's.
At zero deck with a .040 head gasket and a 5cc piston, add 1cc for the area above the rings...... I get 10.66:1.

How much bigger does the stage v iron head have to be, and how far down the bore are the pistons to get that down to 9:1?
I guess I'm kinda surprised that they would have had different pistons being used in those two packages.

What kind of numbers did you see from the 505 test?

I just noticed a little footnote at the bottom of the specs for the 575hp motor.

"First quarter 2001 availability" and
"Requires a minimum of 110 octane racing fuel"

What I remember is the article was in either Hot Rod or Car Craft and that it was done at Dick Landy's shop. I don't recall it making much different than advertised, and considering DLI's connection w/ Mopar Performance, wouldn't expect it to for the purpose of a magazine article.

Anybody else recall that there were two (2) different versions of the MP 500 crate engines offered w/ Stage VI heads? The first one was rated at 545 HP, then IIRC they switched from 1.5 to 1.6 rockers and re-rated it to 575 HP. The rumor I heard years ago was that one of these "575 HP" engines was dynoed OOB at Ray Barton's shop... and wasn't even close to the advertised #.

If the heads used on the crate motors were similar to the ones you could buy over the counter, without some reworking, I don't see how they could have been making 575hp out of that combo.

Would have been "fun" to test one right ootb......eer.....oot-crate.

That's the one. Is there something better?

I went from an RB M1 4150 with spacers and an ootb Holley 850, to this 4500 M1 RB specific intake and a 1050.

The 4500 version of that intake is way better than the 4150. It has to do with how MP basically "stuck" a 4150 carb pad on an intake designed for a MW 4500 application.

Somewhere there are some pics of the Stage VI 4150 intake that the late Roger Helgeson reworked for me that shows how much he changed the transition from the carb pad to the runner entrances.

The only other choice is to use the RB intake spacers to enable running a standard RB intake with Stage VIs.

Sorry, I misunderstood, read the question. That is the intake that came with the engine.

my ports were no where close to MW, nor was this intake. Slightly larger than what they were born with. we only ground opened up the intake windows slightly on the intake and blended them back about 4-5 inches. I know all combos like different things, but changing to this intake and a 1050 picked us up .5 and 4-5mph over the RB M1 and spacers topped with a 850. I was choking the poor thing pretty good apparently. My combo was running the "go to" cam of the day Ultradyne NF69 .640.

never noted that Brad.... they pretty much did just stick a 4150 top on it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Chrysler-Mop...=item25c880f302

....and Summit actually shows both the 4150 and the 4500 intake for $249. Bet if they don't happen to have it on shelf, you can't get them.

Blo---By the looks of the front end of that car...... I'm gonna say you were expecting more than 11.20's.

Any idea what it weighs?

Brad, didn't those intakes basically have MW sized port runners that were necked down to std port openings at the flange? Or am I remembering that wrong?

I think I only tested two motors on the dyno with one of those...... Yours and one other.
As I recall yours had some work done to it, but I don't recall how it compared power-wise to the others.
The other motor that I tried one on the intake was ootb, and it was down on power in the lower and mid-range, and had a narrower band up top where the big numbers were.

I would think the spacers(mounted and blended) and a new TF intake would probably be better, but how much better would be the question.
I would think in a "race" application, the heads opened to MW size, with MW spacers would be in order and either an Indy or Super Victor manifold.

It weighs 3,150 with driver.

Correct, which goes to my comment that the Stage VI intake was really intended for a MW 4500 build.


My Helgeson-ported intake made more peak HP, although only by a couple, than every other intake we tested that time. However, it also had a big dip in the torque curve under 4K RPM that the other intakes didn't have. I think it was too big in the plenum and had too much runner taper for a standard-port 440" engine; modified like mine and used with another 50 cubes and it might work OK for this 500 crate combination.

I was hoping for mid 10's

Found a couple of pics of the RH-modified Stage VI 4150 intake. Compare these to an unmodified intake and you'll see where Helgesen did a lot of radiusing of the transition into the runners because of major turbulence issues he found "as cast".

Race weight? Or 3150 + driver?




Obviously it's not that hard to go mid-10's with a 500" motor in an A body.....although at the same time I'm not so sure that just replacing the heads on the motor with those CNC ported ones will be enough to get you from 11.20's to 10.50's without a few ofher changes too.

Yeah, that's with me in it. I'm sure with some knowledgeable suspension tuning and this head work, 10.50's are easily obtainable.

Dwayne,

If a worked set were to be found on the cheap, is there a substantial gain to running an RB intake on a B block? Or just skip these and run any of the other good choices out there?

Thanks

IMO, they would have to be priced extremely wallet friendly, and be basically "done" by a reputable shop before I would even consider them.

They only make any sense if you already have them, and/or can do the work yourself.

There are just too many other options out there now to make stage 6's an "attractive" choice these days.