EFI for stock 440 ????

Posts: 144







I would like to hear from anyone that has used, or is using, an EFI system on a stock 440 B body. I am taking a cross country trip in my superbird and would like to see if this 2 - 3 thousand dollar complete kit is worth the change. Holley, EZ, Edelbrock, and others have kits. Please just let me know if they work. CARB GUYS... No offense but I don't want to hear about your carb tuning skills.....My carb works fine but would like to see the benefits of modern tech.... Please respond if you have changed from carb to EFI throttle body. this is also posted on Dodge Charger . com see who answers correctly first. ha ha THANKS GUYS.

FiTech is pretty darn affordable. I know a couple of autocrosser's who run with it.

If it's a stock/stock cam 440, any efi system will have no problem. Tuning issues only start getting more difficult with high duration, large overlap cams.

While I have an efi system for my car, for a cross country trip, you're not going to see a whole lot of gains out of it. The best gains with the EFI is cold start/warm-up and city driving. For real gains you should be looking at port EFI systems, not throttle body. Steady speed driving, with engine up to temp on the open road, I wouldn't expect to see any measurable MPG improvement over a well tuned carb for this application.

Forget the big name EFI systems. Go FiTech. You can find them at http://fitechefi.com/

You can get a plug and play 400 hp system for $795. Their most popular system is $995 and supports 600 hp.

If you need a fuel system, you can grab their Fuel Command for $395. That's an excellent solution for fuel. You simply take the fuel line off your carb and run it into the Fuel Command. The high pressure line runs from the Fuel Command to the throttle body. No return line is needed.
They include a touch screen control pad and an O2 sensor with a clamp on mount and gasket.

Clean, tidy, effective, and pretty cheap.

While digging through many forums and doing tons of online research, it seems to be the most trouble-free system available. It is also very effective.

We are installing one on a friend's Dart and I will likely be installing one on the Imperial.






If you find a Summit discount code you can save some money and there's a $100 rebate form floating around too.

I don't see this 400HP system on the website ?

Maybe for a throttle body, but for MPFI it's a huge difference.

Check out Summit Racing. They 400 horsepower version is selling for $720.00 after rebate.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fif-30003/overview/


The 600 horsepower units have $100 rebate on them, so $895.00
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fif-30001/overview/

You can expect to see a difference over a well tuned carb. Maybe not right now. It will likely be when atmospheric conditions change and the carb needs to be retuned for perfection. It will certainly happen if you go through big elevation changes.

If you keep your car close to home you might not notice a big difference but the subtle stuff alone is worth it.

He's looking at a throttle body system, not a MPFI system. Carbs perform their best at steady state operation, like on the highway with the engine up to temp. How much extra mpg on the highway would he get with the throttle body EFI versus a properly tuned carb? I can't see more than 3mpg difference in that situation. A difference of 3mpg would at best save you 50 gallons of fuel on a 5000 mile road trip. Spend $1000 or more to save $100-200 in fuel? I'm a big proponent of aftermarket EFI systems, and in the right application I think they're great. For a car you're building as a daily driver where you have lots of cold starts and warm-ups, they're great (well port injection systems are, TBI is still mediocre).

Throttle body systems suffer many of the same problems as carbs. poor fuel distribution, fuel puddling in intake, etc. All the problem with wet flow. If you cant get a port injection system I'd skip it....

TBI injection systems still have the same fuel distribution problems with poorly designed intakes.

That being said, they will outperform carbs on cold and hot starts, elevation change, and any time the temperature changes.

A fine example is the road trip I have planned for this summer. It will have me crossing the mountains twice and dropping below sea level. A TBI system will handle that better than a carb.

Are they as good as port systems?

Not quite.

Is that a reason to avoid them?

No.

There are plenty of benefits to the TBI systems and the largest percentile of owners would never see the benefit of added cost and complexity of port injection systems.

I've played with port injection and have a good mind to sell my EFI intake on Ebay. It would help pay for the Imperial's future throttle body injection.

I went port EFI on a 505" stroked 440.
Originally the biggest issue was the fuel supply.
The remote sump as shown earlier in this thread is a decent solution if you have the under hood space.
For my '69 Coronet, I currently have the Spectra Performance CR9CFI Fuel tank that comes with a Walbro GSS342, 255 lph internal pump. Bought it from Amazon ($366.02.) Just check the terminals on the inside of the sending unit to make sure they are not shorted. This seems to be an assembly issue as I am not the only one who had this problem.

One of the nice functions of the EFI is full control of the ignition timing. This is where you might find increased fuel mileage, and better idle quality. At idle/no load you can advance the ignition for a nice idle, then under load it backs down to prevent pinging. At speed, it will also advance/retard the timing based on load and RPM to what ever you program.

Use a system that uses a wide-band O2 sensor. These are usually self tuning too.

Other functions you should look for is A/C clutch input so the computer know to compensate the idle for when the A/C kicks on, and if you plan to use electric fans for cooling, an output for the fan control so the EFI computer can switch the fans on/off.

I emailed the company and it's not ready to go out to the public yet. ... Summit has it listed with a 4/29 ship date...

The biggest plus is the problems many run into with the crap gas that boils in the carb, eliminating that headache alone makes the change to a unit like this worth looking into .

That FiTech looks pretty nice, has the Ignition control, A/C control, Fan control, Nitrous, and the self tuning Wideband O2.

I think the OP has to ask himself if he thinks the benefits outweigh the additional cost and complexity of the EFI system. The altitude and temperature correction of the TBI is nice, but that's not going to be any kind of return on investment for the application it sounds like this car is going to be used in.

Another thing to consider is that most modern EFI systems, even TBI, can control timing also.

For 7-800 thats not bad for the benefits. It wont pay off dollar wise on one trip, but it will continue to pay dividends so unless you want a full bogey port setup, i say go for it.

The solution to 'percolation' is a helluva lot less costly than 3k for EFI...


A properly dialed-in fuel system is gonna make a 'Bird with a Carter make it cross-country no problem...


These cars in OEM config have withstood the test of time...

And on the road, if there's 'issues', I'd much rather have to deal with the factory fuel delivery system...


'Modern' EFI in a 'vintage' ride has zero appeal to me...

I want to hear, feel, and smell the 'vintage' experience...


And know it's the result of my tuning, not an onbored computer...


Been doing it for many years...

No issues...

Just my 2C but when you start driving through the mountains you'll love the fuel injection over a carb which will go super rich very fast, whereas FI will compensate. You don't want to be chuggin up the Rockies spewing smoke all over the place from a rich carb. The FITech looks like a great alternative and you can easily convert back when you get home.

The benefits are not measured by fuel savings. They include the hassle free driving and constant self tuning functions. Improved drivability makes itself notable by a driver who pays attention to his engine.

That remote sump can be mounted anywhere in the vehicle but it is too tall to hang under a frame rail of a car.

Feets is pretty much bang on with what he said. And for me, EFI all the way. My next 340 will be procharger, MPFI & Coil packs. My procharger in my 00 4.8L Silverado with a 100% stock engine running 6.5lbs makes 369 whp. Could never do the same with a old-school carb & stock(ish) 283 for example.

I made more than 369 whp with 8 psi blowing through an old school carburetor. You can do that.

However, the engine and I were both FAR happier with EFI.


BTW, the FITech throttle bodies can easily handle a common blow through setup on a 340.

I'll have to keep this in mind. Good info.

Even TBI can be told to shut off the fuel when coasting or engine brakeing, that will help fuel miledge also because a carb tends to get real rich in those conditions and that is why NASCAR used to see flames spewing from the exhaust on decell, if there was a way to stop it those guys would have figured it out. Now with EFI they are not wasting all that fuel when they are off the gas.

I'll add to what others have said. The benefit of EFI is adaptability to changing conditions. Going cross country, you are likely to see altitudes >7'000 ft as well as sea level. Hot and freezing. Sometimes 10% ethanol, sometimes straight gas and sometimes in between. EFI can handle it all and keep the engine happy.

I drove my EFI wedge from IL to CA and back in a week. Last day on the way out I fired up in Flagstaff (~7,700 ft) on the first freezing morning of the season and later the same day was driving along the Mexican border at 90 F and sea level. The car ran great all the way.

Also the fuel supply matters a lot... in tank pump with baffles or remote sump fed by a low pressure pump works great. In line high pressure pump alone does not work well.

Again, I'm a big proponent of EFI systems, but for a car that's driven once a week and is getting ready for one cross country trip, this is not necessarily the best investment for the OP. For a daily driver, absolutely. For a car that's only started once or twice a week to go for a cruise or take the missus out for ice cream, I could take it or leave it. These old cars were driven in stock configuration as daily drivers for many, mnay years, surely an unmodified engine can handle a cross country trip.

Yes, carbed engines have run cross country for years. Before that, a horse and buggy were all you needed. However, man wanted something better.

In my case, I bought the car to make cross country drives so it's getting EFI.

Did you even look at anything before you started running off at the mouth like you always do? You have nothing to offer to this discussion, as usual....

Where is this $3000 system?

The gas of today is different than the gas of 40 years ago, it's not designed to be run in a vented to atmosphere, low pressure, fuel system.

^^^ not to mention summer and winter blends in some areas of the country. In my parts, everything also has a 10% ethanol mix. Thank you EFI lol.

Your redundant trashing of all things Mopar that you obviously cannot comprehend is always good for


Nothing...


Here lies another example...


Brought to you by 'if it doesn't work in my world, it obviously has no value'...


Look in the Jeg's catalog, genius...



'Fuel is different today'...

What a revelation...

Guys. Thanks for the information. I will be going with FI Tech and the fuel sump with my original pump. Just to clear up some reasons why I am:
1) Ethanol in the gas in my area Pittsburgh area is 10%.
2) Percolation (restarts after sitting make me look like I don't know how to time/tune a car)
3) Fuel mileage ( I drive the car if it is not raining or snowing.
4)Altitude and temp changes during my cross country trip.
5)Quicker throttle response
6)Just cause I want it!

Again thanks for all your suggestions, Very Helpful Boys!

Here's a 600 hp carb setup:

Holley 750 cfm 4150 is $740.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/0-80528-1K/10002/-1?parentProductId=

Holley red pump is $117.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-801-1/10002/-1

Holley tuning kit is $110.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/36-182/10002/-1

Total is $967. Then, you spend all day jetting and making passes then jetting again to get it all dialed in. When the weather changes you do it all over again.


Here's a more common setup:

Holley 770 Street Avenger is $538.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/0-83770K/10002/-1?parentProductId=1118144

Holley mechanical fuel pump is $131.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/12-440-11/10002/-1

Holley tuning kit is $110.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/36-182/10002/-1

Total is $779. Then, you spend all day jetting and making passes then jetting again to get it all dialed in (or just drive around in circles instead of making passes). When the weather changes you do it all over again.


FiTech 600 hp EFI system is $995.

http://www.jegs.com/i/FITech+Fuel+Injection/546/30001/10002/-1

FiTech Fuel Command is $395.

http://www.jegs.com/i/FITech+Fuel+Injection/546/40003/10002/-1

Total is $1390. You spend the afternoon installing it then go drive the car. It tunes itself. No more smelling like fuel and bending over a hot engine while trying to not scratch the fenders.

Another system is due out 4/1/16 that will run a 400 hp engine and save you $200.


Yes, carbs are cheaper but the prices are getting pretty close. The time spent tuning a carb turns into cruising down to the local watering hole.

Good luck man! FWIW, before I changed my stuff to EFI, I found having a carb with an electric fuel pump mounted back by the tank solved 99% of my fuel issues, especially the fuel percolation/evaporation problems. Mine's a spring-fall daily driver, rain or shine so I went with the port EFI. Once you dive in, you'll love it!

Can't go wrong with EFI. No issues with a carb either, I doubt there will be any relative fuel savings on a long road trip. There have been some tests done with the Fitech and it actually utilizes more fuel than a carb..

I would say 99% of carbs run poorly because the owner doesn't install an AFR gauge, as it's stupidly easy to generally tune with one. A programmable ignition would solve nearly all the other problems most owners experience, which once again, only takes a few minutes to modify and upload to the ignition box. Fitech for sure if you want a plug and play setup, but lets be realistic, these systems are still a ways off from being perfect.

To some, it's just another complex electronic to fail with no support on the road. My carb (CSU 750 blow-through) cranks on the first turnover (faster than my 15' SRT!!!) and idles, within 5-10 seconds you can drive it. On factory timing however, it's a joke, it takes twenty seconds to crank @ 18-20* while at 30-32* it cranks instantly. Ignition box retards it right back to 18* and it cruises like stock after.

Let us know how it goes. The only thing I would add is a phenolic spacer between the intake and throttle body to help keep heat away from the computer on the throttle body. I think these units use the fuel to help cool the computer, but I would still want to prevent heat soak of the computer after shutting off the engine.

Great discussion about this. I like the FiTech system. I just emailed them to see if it is compatible with E85.

You're fussing about complexity and still running a blow through carb?

I ditched the carb and built a port injection EFI intake for my TT440 more than 10 years ago.

It started on the first revolution of the motor in most cases. The drivability was MUCH better. Carbs can be made to work under boost but you're crutching it here or there. Go EFI and don't look back.

Let me know what they say. I have a FAST XFI 2.0 and it supports use of a flex-fuel sensor that tells the computer the amount of alcohol in the fuel.

No, not at all. Was stating 'most people' consider aftermarket EFI too complex. Its very simple, if fitech was around a few years back then it would have been a no brainer for me. My carb runs great, and I actually drive my car (just drove 300 miles last weekend). I would love to test out the MPFI setup from them, I may in the future.

I have a first Gen Edelbrock ProFlo system in my 72 Roadrunner. It's not exactly stock, 505 stroker with a decent cam. I love the way it runs. The ProFlo 2 kit is very similar, but offers more tuning capability. The EFI makes the car very reliable, easy to star in any weather, and idles well in all temperature conditions, even with the AC on. I saw a slight increase in mpg, but not much. After I installed an overdrive tranny, I saw a great improvement in fuel economy. With the EFI and the overdrive tranny, the car is a pleasure to drive anywhere.

After the run from Dallas to Green Bay I'd had enough of the blow through carb and bad manners. The EFI went on shortly afterwards.

I used an old Electromotive TEC II system and a port injection intake of my own design. The distributorless ignition was kinda nice but the system operated backwards from everything else out there.
You had to set the absolute maximum amount of fuel then it was divided by all the other factors to get the proper fueling. While effective, it was mind boggling for most people (even those with efi experience). I was largely on my own. Electromotive offered to dyno tune for a fee but their Virginia office is a bit distant for me.

This time around I want a system that is as hands free as possible. While I can figure out an EFI system I don't care to do that again. Too many things compete for my time.

I find it incredible that people are bad mouthing TBI systems when there is millions upon millions of them on the road being driven seamlessly by people every day and there is another group defending carburetors as "all you need".

TBI systems atomize and control fuel much finer than any antique fuel mixer could ever hope to do.

While a PFI system is ideal I doubt few people on this board know much about designing a PFI intake manifold that takes maximum advantage of runner length and plenum volume for a given engine displacement and operating range.

Myself included.

why design when you can buy.

Thanks for proving my point.

A carb intake with fuel injection bungs does not maximize PFI use.

And what point would that be? We're talking adapting a 50 year old design for MPI use. So choices would be limited. But infinitely better then running a carb. Cheers.

Which isn't much better than TBI in that configuration.



Only if your choices are limited to what you can buy over the counter.

A proper PFI intake has the runners and plenum sized for a specific engine displacement, expected RPM range, torque peak(s) etc that take advantage of several well known tuning principles.

I remember one Chrysler study and seminar discussion of an aftermarket intake for the Viper engines. The engineers were laughing as pretty as the intake was the secondary tuning peak of the intake occurred long after the engines internals would have been scattered on the ground.

I'll have to disagree with you friend. PFi is vastly superior no matter what engine designed is used. Even 70 years ago when those German DB series V-12 aircraft engines were using DFI vs the British Merlin's using pressure carburetors.

Except for the wet flow problems like fuel puddling and poor fuel distribution that occur with TBI, albeit these problems are mostly noted during warm-up and cold starting. Either system is an upgrade over carb, but come on, even in the 50's chrysler engineers saw the superiority of an electronic port fuel injection system, ie the 1958 electrojector system.

Apples to Oranges.

Talking the difference of a 33 liter engine vs a 27 liter. The fuel injected engine had a handling advantage as it didn't lean out under certain maneuvers.

One was also supercharged.

Ironically the carburated unit made more power per liter due to being supercharged.

How much wet puddling are you going to get moving the injector 5-6" up the intake tract? Not a hell of a lot.

Again, TBI and PFI are lightyears better than carbs.

Modified carb intakes with fuel injector bungs are far from an ideal PFI solution and ignore the fact that dry and wet intakes have different runner and volume requirements.

Look it up, there are several excellent online resources that discuss optimal intake designs.

Another reason I prefer the FiTech throttle body over the other TBI systems is the fact that they use annular discharge. That will help keep the fuel in suspension better than injectors firing directly at the floor of the plenum.


Intake manifolds have a big impact on port injected systems. That's why the factory manifolds are so complicated. Tumble flaps, multiple port routings, and all that stuff they use helps the efficiency of the engines.

I did what I could when laying out my intake. The runner length was a toss up but I dug into plenum theories and came up with a 390 cubic inch design.

It worked for me. The hot rod was a torque monster. I'm sure someone who had access to all the fluid dynamics software would laugh at my work.

Some people have been discussing an eddy efi kit with intake that is designed for port injection over in the race section. Not sure the cost, but certain it's more than the fitech tbi.

That's what I'm talking about. Very nice adaptation! I have a friend fabricating something similar with a Ford flathead, he'll be using the coil packs, wiring, fuel pump , other odds and ends & PCM from a 11 Camaro. All going into a deuce. Again very nice.

From their FAQ's:

Q: Are these systems E85 compatible?

A: Yes, but please reduce the output claims of the system by 25-30%.

The Edelbrock XT PFI intake is a nice intake, only avaliable for RB engines with standard port size. The XT computer that comes in the kit is quite lacking (no wideband O2, no self tuning, no A/C idle compensation, no cooling fan outputs. The kit is also expensive, around $4,000. They do have an upgrade for the stock computer, but I think it is an additional cost, I think around $500?

If you have a 440 and want to use this intake, don't buy the kit, just the intake, TB, fuel rails/hardware, and maybe the injectors (depending on cost and injector size needed.) The EFI sensors, MAP, Air Temp, coolant temp, are all common GM sourced stuff.

Then you can get a computer and wiring harness from Holley, FAST, or Megasquart. All these can handle a variety of ignition/trigger position sources.

On the FiTech E85 question above, The answer needs more information.
I think they are they saying the peak advertised HP level will be 25-30% lower because the injectors size? Not that the engine will make less power on E-85 (upto the injector size limitation?)

Forgot to mention, the fuel tank mounted fuel pump is a better design than feeding the remote sump with the stock low pressure engine mounted pump. The low pressure pump is still susceptible to vapor lock because the suction side of the pump can lower the pressure the fuel is under lowering the temperature the fuel will start to turn to vapor. The Vapor20-Liquid temperature (20 parts vapor to 1 part liquid) at standard atmosphere temp varies around 95 degrees to 140 degrees depending on winter/summer blends of gas according to this Chevron Tech review:
https://www.chevron.com/~/media/chevron/operations/documents/MotorGasTechReview

Interesting article because gasoline is many hydrocarbons mixed, different parts of it vaporize at different temperatures.

Heard back from FiTech about E85, here is the response:

Hi Mark
yes you can run E 85 with our system, just deduct 30% from the
advertised horsepower on our throttlebody's.
Anything else let me know

E-85 carries fewer BTU's per gallon so it takes more of it to support the same amount of HP. For E-85 applications its always recommended to upsize injectors at least 30% for this reason.

This is true for any system.

FYI not all injection systems are E-85 compatible as it is corrosive to some degree. Chrysler use to sell Flex Fuel Spirits and everything in the fuel system was stainless steel for this reason. Even the valve guide seals were unique as the fuel would attack the regular seals.

Anyone know what the conversion to compare Gasoline to E-85 per unit of air?
I think E-85 has about the same BTU / gallon as propane 84250, and gasoline is 116090 btu/gallon, but Gasoline (ideal) Air Fuel ratio is 14.7:1 where E-85 is 9.7:1, so you can burn more E-85 fuel with less air to make up the difference in BTU, but I don't know how to compare the two.

Just trying to see which has the greatest BTU for a given amount of air, even though you will still be using more E-85 fuel.

E85's advantage is it has much higher octane rating, but your motor needs to be built to take advantage of that fact.

@ 451Mopar The fuel's specific energy (SE) value, which is derived by dividing the heat value by the air/fuel ratio (Btu/lb ÷ A/F), telling us how much heat energy is delivered per pound of air into the motor. E85 SE is 9825 and E0 gasoline SE is 7891.

that per pound of air, no scale for per pound of fuel, and you have to burn more e85 to get to the same power level, which is why they derate the efi systems to support e85.

so at 600 hp for gas your at about 450 hp for e85. to reach the same power level with e85 you need larger injectors

So, is this burning more fuel per unit of air why (one reason) E-85 is supposed to make more power than Gasoline (even equal octane race gas)?

I know you need to have larger injectors/fuel pump to fed the extra fuel. Just trying to see how the same engine can more power on E-85 compared to an equal octane gasoline?
I also know the extra fuel has cooling effects on the A/F and engine temps, but I was not sure the total BTU per unit of air was higher than gasoline?

You gain the power because you're burning a more powerful fuel.
To burn that fuel you need a specific amount of air. That value changes based on the fuel.

You aren't gaining power by burning more air.


If you burn race fuel with a similar octane rating as E85 then you will need to adjust the air volume but will make similar power.

You select parts to burn the fuel you have in mind.

Sorry, went off topic with the E-85 stuff.

Started new topic:

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2042764.html#Post2042764

Sure you can. It's around .10lbs of E85 for every pound of air. 150hp loss? I don't think so lol.

You're thinking of it the wrong way.

The system will flow about 150 hp less E85 when compared to gasoline.

It's all about injector capacity. If you need a fire hose to supply the fuel but only have a garden hose then you are kinda held back a bit.

Haha my bad. Thanks for the correction and apologies to Jerry. Yes, without larger injectors you get a power loss. Thank said, I specifically seen a wheel dyno test using E85 on a modern truck. Horsepower was down an average of 6%. I'm assuming the computer compensated via increased timing and such?

The engine was not built with the compression and injectors to run E85. The programming is also likely too generic to make the best of the fuel.

Optimizing the engine for that stuff would make it almost impossible to run on pump swill. Not too many 13:1 engines survive on 91 octane.

no worries, if you can build an engine dedicated to run solely on e85 and forget gas you will make more power, however you run into its share of headaches and costs as well. everything on the efi side will need to be "bigger" for e85

Looks like if I wanted to go E-85 on my Port EFI, I'd need 60# injectors and the 400+ LPH pump to support around 600 HP?
Currently have the 44# injectors and 225 lph pump.

Another advantage of an EFI system is on some of them can you can tune a lean burn fuel and timing curve into the map for cruise, based on throttle position and MAP. There's a few MPG there.

Keeping fuel in suspension is a bit of a myth based on any research and videos I've seen. Most of the fuel hits the floor and stays there. Something to do with gravity I think...

If you have fuel puddling in a manifold I would speculate that there is a dead spot in the airflow maybe something similar to a windshear condition like what can crash an aircraft?

Kevin