Can I achieve 400hp with a late 70's 440 on a $2000 budget

I can get my hands multiple complete non running stock 440's for cheap. Some from c-bodies, others from motor homes. I think they all have 452 heads.

My car is a 71 B, and it has a PTC 3000 stall, 1 7/8" headers, and 4.10 gears. 727 auto.

If I disassemble and take the parts to the machine shop, is it possible to achieve 400+ hp and similar torque though block machining, mild head work and different cam on a $2000 budget? I would also be paying for the short block assembly

I know the flat top stocker pistons are limiting factor on cam lift, so if the block is zero decked, whats the most lift I can use?

All I can contribute is I was so impressed with Dulcichs 452 porting article that I am going to duplicate it (as best I can/no flowbench) as I have a set of bare 452's. It does take new 2.14/1.81 valves/new guides & checking/milling them flat (intake side also). I have a valve grinder. pushing me in that direction is I have some plateau pistons already, oh & you need to mill the open chambers flat/equal. I will (likely) sell my 915's (2.08/1.74 with new valves/guides, I need to finish the valve job) to recoup some money. Stealths might be the way to go, the alum saves weight, iirc there was an extensive thread on alum vs iron & the concensus was that there is no magic in alum but it does wick away heat faster & that lets you run a higher SCR/DCR tho heat is power so I'm wondering does the power bennie from the higher psi get negated from the heat loss ??? and is alum just a way to deal with a too high of psi that iron heads cant handle. reportedly stealths need the retainers/locks replaced and the guide clearance checked. maybe the big bennie of the stealths is a better bowl/port shape & I have no doubt it is significantly better, how much I dont know but I do have a set of bare super stealths on the shelf (plus their valves/required offsett (intake) rocker assys with the dreaded needle roller rockers. Just thinking out loud here and a BTT for ya since you werent getting any love on this Q

You won't get near zero deck with stock pistons. Stock rebuild with an approximately .500 lift hydraulic cam, your headers, decent ignition, and a swap meet intake and carb should easily get you past your target. If you already have a decent Holley or thermoquad then just buy a used Holley SD intake. With your converter and gear it will work great and still fit under your hood.

People are going to tell you how to build an engine that you can't afford. Remember, you don't need to build a 500hp engine if your target is 400hp.

400hp from a 440, thats kid stuff, BUT doing it for $2K is a biscuit...

Figure it this way..
$600 for a set of heads http://www.indyheads.com/images/laxmaxtaprice.pdf

then the block work, I pay $650 for cleaned, magged, bored, honed, cam bearings and brass freeze plugs installed, and they mount my pistons on the rods...

Cam and lifters are going to be $190ish (voodoo 2 or 3)

Call Falcon for the rest of the parts, tell them you are ordering a kit and want their best pricing, make it sound like you are shopping around...

Sealed power / speed pro pistons should be close to the weight of your stocks and with rings they will be around $350-$390

next is main and rod bearings $120

timing set $45

gasket set with valley pan $58

oil pump $70

now, you need to try and make sure you can reuse all of your bolts, your push rods, dizzy drive, fuel pump rod, etc because to replace that stuff can add a good amount to the build, I would at minimum replace the rod bolts for $45...

So that will total around $2150ish and you havent actually assembled the motor yet!!! PLUS if your crank needs to be turned, or or your dizzy drive is trashed, fuel pump rod is mushroomed, etc etc etc it is all going to add up, not to mention, if you cant find pistons to "about" match the ones that come out its costs $250-350 to balance a rotating assembly...


I don't think it is possible to build a fresh 440 for $2000, MAYBE if you get the machine work done SUPER cheap, score some parts, and have some good luck its possible, but you would be much better equipped if you saved another $1000-1500, I know its almost doubling the budget, but its probably not going to happen any other way...


PS: If you are interested my father has a machined 440 block, all ready to go for $700, but since we are on opposite sides of the country, it would probably not make much sense for you...

2K after you buy the engine? Put Stealths, Edelbrocks, or Trick Flows on it and a 240ish@.050 hydraulic that works with stock rockers, Eddy RPM intake, headers. It'll make 400 horse. 3000 stall and decent gears and it will haul.

If you can find stock pistons out of an early engine cheap just swing them in and go. They pop up from time to time.

There is a 400 with a 440 crank in it in the classifieds here for $1200 bucks, looks like a good motor, seller advises going through it. Check it out.

I'd go with that engine that ran 12.16 for 2K. Really, you're not going to build a fresh engine that will run anywhere near that fast for less than 4K if you include purchase of a core (unless you get a lot of good deals on used parts).

If you're not too used to tricked out big blocks that 12.16 will really impress you IMO.

Home port the heads. Simple and doesn't cost anything except time and a grinder. Someone posted the old porting templates recently, maybe in the tech section. Mill them if you can with a good valve job.

Old school 284/484 108 LSA cam installed at 100-102 with a new timing chain using the stock low comp piston. Get an cam you like cut on a tighter LSA and install it a bunch advanced, isky 230/480 would be another. The 284/484 can use stock style rockers, bonus!

Find a torker/street dominator/rpm intake and a 750-850dp.

Curve a stock electronic distributor and give it a lot of initial timing, total in the 36-42 range.

Hone the cylinders, new rings and oil pump.

Go beat the snot out of it!

Buy a running 440, a nitrous kit, and a helmet. Done! next question...

just kidding, lol... or am I?

Of course you can.. Anybody that says you cant....is....well...

The caveat is you will need to take ur time and buy good used parts when you have the chance...

Buying all new (off the shelf) stuff, no. Prob not gonna happen, but might.

My old racecar (in 1986) with a JY .030 440 with 6 pack rods & pistons (factory balance) stock port & valve 906 heads, .557 solid cam, Torker with Holley 850, 727 with a 340 converter, Dana 60 with 4.88s ran 12.0s NA and with a 125 NO2 shot 11.50s. The car weighed 3,800# with driver. I will do better with the new ride

Thanks for replies. I know there are tons of aftermarket and stock rods, pistons and cranks that are better than a stock 70's 440, my main question is can I re-use my stock rotating assembled and get my hp from machine work, head porting and cam. I don't want to buy parts that are more expensive than reusing my own.

YES
Come to a meeting of Mopars Unlimited Tacoma Chapter and ask a few questions.

Decent thread here

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/113561/1.html

Yep.

It's not going to have perfect ring seal, valve seal, or last lots of miles. but you just build for a little more HP to account for the little losses.

I ran a 9.82 in my Duster (440) with a .030 over TRW pistons, 906 heads, stock reworked rods, and a stock forged crank so YES 400 horsepower on a 2000 dollar budget is possible. And this was around 35 years ago.

I got it done for $2500 with what you have, BUT, my heads were already done and just needed a good cleaning, mag, cc and reassembly. I bought my carb and intake (RPM) used. I did mine with LY rods and stock forged crank and damper. H-Beams are overkill so I was told. I used KB pistons @ 9.5:1 and the Comp Cams XE274HD cam. Be careful on the intake choice. The RPM has clearance issues on most B bodies. I really had to work at getting it to fit, including losing the choke horn on my Holley. From what I have read, you can get there if you port your heads at home using the MP porting templates and have them machined for bigger valves and hardened seats. I've done the porting before. It's time consuming but not that bad.

A late 70's 440 is going to have pistons almost .150 , or maybe .170 , in the hole , you do not want to zero deck those pistons , it's going to cost more in machining the block that much , then heads and of intake to make it all fit together after hacking that much off the block , than it would to buy a set of 6pk pistons that are only .020 in the hole and have valve reliefs.

I'd look for something used that needs to be freshened maybe .

You could do it as Von suggests , buy used parts when you can ... but it sounds like you don't want to take a year to do this build , or do you ?

Plus it's a crap shoot buying someone else's used up junk ... and there is a lot of that out there .... being passed off as good and ready to go ...

Some good points here. I'll look for some pistons that are inexpensive. What piston height do I want to avoid milling too much off the block?

I've gotten 520 hp from a 9.5 late 440, if you use the templates the heads work good untill .560 lift.

I should have clarified....not necessarily used, but new, never used parts, at usually half of new.

I just saw a set of std 6pak pistons on either the BB parts for sale or the race parts For $100 + the ride. Not sure if used pistons are worth the risk (wait for guys to chime in on that) or what kind of shape thse are in but I wanted to toss it out there. iirc those pistons are very heavy but you can trim the pad on the rod small end (HF has a gram scale for less than ten dollars & it is just as accurate as my buddy's high dollar scale) & you need to get the rod C to C holes horizontally level for a legitimate reading and BB pins can be safely shortened 1/4" off each end with no issues (ex for lathe time) as the pins are bigger than needed even for a racing app so you might be able to get away WO rebalancing. Not sure if any of this is helpfull. Holler how it turns out for you/what plan you decide to go with/how it performs.

Unless its wounded i would just run the short block as is. Spend your money on the heads and any other odds and ends you need, like ignition, carb, etc. save your coins and next teardown you will have all the goods to hang on a well done short block. Otherwise you'll just end up with crap shoot used, mismatched, machine work not ideal for later, or stuff you wont want when you do it right at some point.

Agreed, get up & running within a reasonable length of time & you can build a better spot on eng in your liesure. easy to let a project drag on & that robs you of actual seat enjoyment time. I'd rather have a mediocre running car eng/build with a killer (stroker!) eng coming together on the stand

There is no way that you will be able to get into and back out of the short block, and do heads for your budget. The power is in the heads. Buy the smallest combustion chamber aluminum head (75 cc?) and a nice hydraulic cam and timing set. If there is money left over, put that into the heads too.

Do you need any of this stuff, and is this in your $2,000 budget?

Oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter, fuel line, fuel clamps, anti freeze, radiator hoses, clamps, belts, fasteners, gaskets (timing, water pump, head, exhaust, intake, carb, valve cover…), gasket sealants, cleaners, paint, spark plugs, plug wires, oil pump, oil pump drive shaft.,,,,,,

$2000 is not alot of money to do a 440 the way theyre typically done nowadays. If you had a pre 1971 440 that runs good you could do the old fashioned rings gaskets bearings cam lifters and springs. Good carb and good factory intake or used aftermarket and some $140 headers. If you will be paying a shop to do the assemlby that will take a chunk of your 2k budget right there.

You need to confirm exactly what the core engines you have to choose from are.

In a perfect world one of those cores is from a 67 New Yorker with 915 heads and 40,000 miles on it. That one you could hit your goal by accident for $2K. Dingle ball hone it, good valve job, re-ring it, add camshaft to taste and done, stock intake and all. The only problem might be lack of longevity because the heads won't have hardened seats. Might be a problem might not.

Anything with 452 heads is going to have pistons .120"+ in the hole so the compression sux. 8:1ish advertised and closer to 7.5:1 when measured. Motorhome engine will be the same. They will also be externally balanced with cast cranks if that is a concern for you. Camshaft selection will be critical to make this package work and still make bottom end torque, but is doable.

906 heads were on 68 to 71 and all those engines had 10:1ish advertised compression and forged cranks so if you have an unmolested core with 906's, that's the one you should start with. (if you don't live in a perfect world) Same longevity issues apply to the 906's as the 915's, non hardened seats.

All that being said I think the only way you get out the door for $2K or less is a down and dirty no machine shop dingle ball hone re-ring of the short block using the best core of the ones you have to choose from. No fancy rings that require perfect cylinders either. Cheaper the better.

Summit has a rings, bearings and gasket kit for $300.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/fem-205632m-000/overview/make/dodge

I would then shop for a set of aluminum heads.

As was posted earlier, this is where all the power is and to rebuild a set of iron heads PROPERLY you are at or close to the price of several entry level aluminum offerings that will be as good OOTB as ported iron ones.

You will also have room to grow when you become bored with 400HP.

Kevin

At what power levels do stock rocker arms become risky?

Cam lift is the issue for rockers. Most of the stock style stamped rockers don't like lifts in excess of about .510-.520. Spring rates are greater and you end up with pushrods punching through the rockers.

I'd home port the iron heads, lap the valve on the cheap or do a vavle job, mill and run them. Stock iron will get you easily to 400 with the right other items. Step up later to an aluminum head if you want with another engine. For what you drop on a set of aluminums, you can get the iron done and a juice unit!

It's not so much a power level as valve lift and spring pressure that does in the stock rockers altho the 2 can go hand in hand.
I'm running an MP509 with OOTB Edelbrock RPM springs on a set of replacement stamped rockers with no problems. Yet...

From what I've seen from people that post here, they are good for hyd cams with valve lifts in the low-mid .500's and mid 300's for open spring pressure.

If you are considering a hydraulic MP purple cam like a .484 or a .509, you should be good. YMMV.

Kevin

I ran 12.60's with a 77 low compression 440 with stock 906 heads, TM7 intake, .509 DC juice cam, 2" headers in a 3800 lb car with slicks. If it had an auto it would have ET'd better.

For your budget, there are a variety of appropriately sized Vortech and Paxton centrifugal superchargers available on ebay. I would take a late 70's smogger 440, clean it up, fresh gaskets, summit k6401 cam with a new timing set. If you're crafty with fabrication, a bracket and pulleys could be setup with junkyard parts for cheap enough. 500hp would not be difficult to attain.

Plus good rings, bearings, oil pump and fresh heads.

X2 or 3..

440 compression was rated 8.2 the last 5 or 6 years of production. Any pre '70 pistons are an improvement. I did that swap to a '71 440, quick hone job and select fit pistons that were higher in the bore. 6pac's are the way to go

71 pistons still weren't low in the bore like the 72+ were. If you had any kind of a ridge in your cylinder on a 72+ 440, I'd be worried about the rings on the new pistons catching on it.

Compression of at least 9.5:1 and airflow will get you there.

906 heads flow a little better stock than most of the others if you have a choice. Use the thin .020 steel shim gaskets and mill them to keep compression up. 915's are nice too but harder to find.

An aftermarket intake, headers, cam and a Holley 3310 will also help.

Look for deals as $2k doesn't go very far. Lots of guys upgrading to aftermarket aluminum heads so good cast iron ones are pretty cheap right now.

I'm aware of that. I just wanted more. As far as a ridge goes, a ridge reamer used carefully will take of that.

Ive been looking for 68 to 70 motors so I can start off with higher compression, but most guys want $1000 for used short blocks.

Ive found a guy with a couple 440's from 73 Imperials. They are complete from pan to pulleys to carb, but they are out of the car. Not sure how to compression test these or if the compression test would do me any good without the engine warmed up. He says they all turn over. He wants $400 for a complete engine plus the tranny. As long as there is no internal water damage, spun bearings or bent valves I think this could be a good deal even if they need a rebuild.

Were 440s that went into imperials assembled any different than 440s that went into cheaper cars like furys or trucks? What compression ration and heads should I expect from this motor?

$400 sounds very reasonable for complete + trans.



Same, barring some hd applications.

8.2 was advertised, real life is 7.8:1.

452 or 346 heads.

Don't look for PRETTY look for CHEAP. Craigslist and Moparts sale ads are your Friend. Can't find it, post a wanted ad. Match your parts carefully. I'm betting I could make 400 HP on a 1000 dollar budget but I do my own work and buy deals whether I need them or not.

Sounds cheap.

There's a guy here selling a 440/727 for $1K. They're out of the car, he claims the motor is "good running," & needs a freeze plug.

Getting 400hp out of even a later model low compression 440 isn't that hard.

Production line engines were not built for a specific car, they were built to a spec and shipped from engine plant to assembly plant where they are pulled from stock as needed.

Definitely not looking for pretty over cheap. Id like to keep the bottom end stock, hopefully it will be in good enough shape that I can just run the bottom end without needing a rebuild, and focus my funds elsewhere

Just for conversation sake, we had a '74 440 in our '64 Savoy back in the early 90's that we called the $200 440. (We paid $200 for both the motor/trans out of an Imperial or equivalent barge.)

I took it apart, dingle berry honed it, put in some cheap rings/bearings, and added a used .509 MP cam/lifters, Doug Herbert springs, swap meet Team G and 750 Holley DP. (Not even new rod bolts. )

With a 10" Street Fighter converter and 4.56 gears, the '64 ran 12.80's. With a fresh valve job and a factory Max Wedge intake/600 Carters, it ran 12.40's @ 108mph every time we raced it. The thing would never skip a beat and it ran fine when it was pulled in 2001 for the 'good' motor. It was plenty streetable, but highway drives were a little short with the 4.56s. The 285/70 BFGs calmed that down a bit at least.

We joked that it did not have enough power to blow itself up.

NICE, nice and simple. I had a block once that was so worn out and I had to finish the season with it. I dingle honed the block and put double cast rings in it. (cast top and 2nd). That sucker ran like you wouldn't believe and sealed up great.

Grab the 400 dollar deal offered.

Does a cast crank motor have counter weights on both the damper and flexplate? Or is there also a weight on the torque converter?

Weights are on the converter, not the flexplate. See 440 source's page on stock dampers:

http://www.440source.com/dampers.htm

How am I going to use my PTC converter with an external balance engine?

B&M makes a line of flexplates that are designed for that.

Thanks Polarapete, good to know

Yep, they sell balanced flex plates. Alternatively you can weld weights onto the converter ring gear.

Do not use a 509 cam in a low comp engine you will make the car a pig I would concentrate as stated on heads and engine dist running all the total I could get the car to run/ start with in normal fashion Run a hyd cam of around 480-490 lift keep the centerline at around 112 Good intake and exhaust If you can try a 350 horse from late 60 early 70s still around and cheap if still in a car. Do not pay any attention to the Mopar bible for total timing limits of 36 or so Give the engine all it can take and back off when she barks. Run a 650-750 dbl pumper 650 for throttle response 750 if you can for overall power and drag racing.

Have fun and just do it !

You dont think 509 cam even with 4.10 gears and 3000 stall?

I went out to the guys property today, and the 73 is complete as advertised and turns over. I didnt buy it yet because there is a 71 still in a car that hes trying to sell today, and if he doesnt sell it, I can take the engine for same price.

I noticed a few posts about the 71 440 in this thread, that it has higher stock compression than the 72+ but less than 70-, is that true? Thats why Im holding out for it

If you have the 509 that's one thing.

If you have to buy, then get the 108LSA 484 if you want to run a mopar hydraulic cam.

The 509 might make more power in the last 500 rpm and it's not going to be by much. The 484 will pull the midrange better. Especially if you advance it a bunch as mentioned earlier.

I'd run a Lunati Voodoo 60303 or 60304 cam before the Mopar cams.

ADVERTISED(OEM)CR is 9.7 for '70 and '71 440-4...


Drops to 8.2 in '72...



509;4:10;3000....Yes, you need some compression...



(484;3:91;2800-stall on a 10.0 440 works...)

If you have the 292 use it you can always advance it ,the 484 will be faster in 1/8

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/archive/index.php/t-58687.html

You get a 71 for 400 bucks you will be rockin

Damn he sold the 71.

There is one option left besides the 73. A 67 440 that needs a rebuild. He'll sell the complete motor for 650 ( I believe it has the 915 heads with small exhaust ports) or the short block plus all the pulleys, water pump, brackets for 350. Has a bit of surface rust in some of the cylinders from having one of the heads removed a long time ago (covered in garage) so it may need a bore job. If it needs to be bored then Id have to get new pistons and then my cost is going up at least $300 to $400 just in pistons.

Think Ill be better off with the 73

is the '73 the one with the heavy rods etc or a std forged crank 440?

Standard cast.

iirc 73 or 74 was the changeover year (supposedly could be either way). I bought a hiway patrol orange 440 from a '73 fury & it had the heavy rods/dampener (6 pak?). Adam you've gotten alot of love on this Q (over 2K hits!), good luck with the build & holler how it turns out

The 67 will have a forged crank to the 73's cast if that matters to you, not that it will at your hp level. If you're looking for an engine to clean up and drop in, take the 73.

(If yer gonna pound it, go as strong as you can...


Better to have it than wish you did...)

I ran a low compression 440 with a 509.

Don't do it.

The car was an absolute pig down low and only mediocre in the mid range and above.
We dropped a 484 cam in a low compression 400 and that Road Runner was much quicker than mine.

Adam, I don't know if this helps you any, but here goes. I put a rebuilt 440 in my Fury last year to replace the 318 poly. Guy sold the motor to build a twin turbo 440. I bought it for 1500 bucks complete. I don't know actual compression, but i was told it is 9 to 1, has 452 heads, manifolds, and the old grind 484(cant remember the lsa). Car has a 2100 to 2400 rebuilt converter from Transgo, and 2.94 open rear end. I have the initial timing at 16, total at 36. Even with the big C body behind it, it pulls pretty durn good, especially when you wind it up. If I had 3.91 gears and a bigger stall like you, I believe it would run like a raped ape. Good luck on the build, and the thread has some good info on it for others looking to get some go on a budget.

Picked up the engine today.

Casting code is 3698830-44-10
Date code 10-28-72
Stamp in pad J440 11 13 2

The thermoquad is gone, it had a Carter with an adapter plate

I Guess Im not going to be able to reuse alot of these brackets and pulleys when I ditch the smog pump and A/C, and Im pretty sure my B body uses a rear sump pan.

Gonna take it apart and see what condition the bores and rotating assembly are in, and find out which heads I have.

Apparently this engine came from a large auction of C body cars in Bend Oregon a little while ago. The guy I bought it from bought 8 imperials from this auction

440 source has the brackets and pulleys to delete the A/C for very reasonable prices! Cars usually use the center sump whereas trucks use the rear sump pan.

That looks like it has a #699 pan. That and the #187 are the ones the BB A body swap guys use. If it's not all beat up it's worth about $100.

Also appears to have a thin balancer, so you have a steel crank.

I didnt know a thin balancer indicated steel crank, cool! Got most of the exterior disassembled and the engine is now on a stand. Gotta clean it before I take it any further so I dont get dirt on the valve train and internals.

Ive bought the 440 source brackets for the engine I had to sell, they are reasonably priced but it will eat into my budget. The full kit is 399.

On the bright side I will be able to recover all of that possibly more when I clean and sell the pulleys, brackets and other things I wont be re-using. The throttle linkage and kickdown will be perfect for a C-body guy, and I removed the RV2 compressor complete with all brackets and bolts so Ill be able to sell that pretty easy as well.

vdriver, thanks for the tip on the pan.

Havent found any heads for sale yet (here, ebay or craigslist) that are a better value than a new set of 440 source stealths. I will most likely be buying those, and re-use the rockers and shafts from my heads.

Will wait till I pull the heads to make any firm decisions.

Stealth's are awesome for the money.

I ran a standard port set on a '76 440 and it was a fun street ride.

A few years down the road, you can rip them off and send them to Modern Cylinder Head to have them CNC ported to REALLY wake up the motor.

I just meant alternator bracket and pulleys to clean up the front of the engine?! Not sure what you spent $399 on?!

I have power steering. Not sure if can make it work with the ps bracket I have, or if the ps pump is any good. 399 buys the whole front engine kit, which is 150 cheaper than if you buy all the pieces individually. Gotta take a close look at what I have 1st, then decide best way to go. I may only need a few brackets and pulleys

I would not sweat that as you will be cleaning EVERYTHING clean from head to toe & on the valve train slide hammering a core plug out on one end of the shaft then driving out the other one. keep the rockers in order (if reusing em). You mentioned someone in Bend Oregon purcasing a lot of Imperials, I'm wondering if it is the Cab character? I would put it past him

That water pump housing is heavy, you going aluminum, or just an earlier one that exits on the other side with less iron?

I'm O.C.D. Robert I have to at least get the block clean. The guy I bought the block from is in Port Orchard Washington. He was a buyer at the auction in Bend. If I'm going with a new hydraulic flat tappet cam can I reuse my lifters?

It all boils down to cost. Aluminum water pump is low on my priority list but I will switch if I have enough money left over

Nope. New flat tappet cams needs new lifters.

Kevin

Why are you spending 400 bucks on a front engine kit? All you need is a used standard alternator bracket and ps pump bracket. Neither of which are costly.

I'm not spending it yet, need to mock up with the pulleys I have and see if it will work. I'm pretty sure my water pump and pulley are specifically for an a/c car. And I need a power steering

A NO-BRAINER! Build it like a 67'-70' spec 440 Magnum, paying particular
attention to cylinder pressure. Unless you have a set of "good" 906 heads
laying around, stick with the stock heads save for a bowl cleanup and multi-angle valve job. You can raise compression by milling the cylinder heads, replacing the "stock" cam with the 440 Magnum spec. or a "fast acting cam" (moderate duration) that "pumps up"
cylinder pressure, boring the cylinders and also installing pre-71' 440 Magnum/6 pack spec pistons. 440's can and will exceed the 400 hp mark with stock parts (66-70 HP's and Magnums, even the 325-350 horse versions too) and a few smart tuning tricks. Yours is a 180-220 horse version and it needs a bit more - compression and/or modern cam technology to reach the 400 bar. With ignition and carb tuning added
in the mix and keeping the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) intact,
the 2 grand would get you there. Check out some of the other posts concerning low-buck 440 builds and particularly pay close attention to
some the articles in Mopar Muscle, Mopar Action and Engine Masters (past issues) on 440's written by Rick Ehrenberg and Steve Dulchich. They both are on Moparts, as well as Andy Finkheimer (Andy F). Between
all three writers and the Moparts Archives, there is a WEALTH of info!
Use the info wisely and good luck with the build!!

With standard alternator and ps pump brackets you just won't use the outer groove on the pulleys. Also, if needed, shimming the pulleys fore and aft is not difficult.

Daytona, I may need a new PS pump as well, plus bracket, alternator bracket, alt bracket hardware, correct water pump and non a/c water pump pulley (as far as I know the wp pulley is different size on a/c cars). Ive got some shims too. Ill get it all figured out when I get there

Took covers off. No obvious problems in valve train that I can see. The heads are 346.

Heads off. #1 has a white ashy residue, not sure why its only in #1. Head gaskets looked ok, no leaks.

The cylinders have some powdery surface rust, it wipes off mostly with a rag and lacquer thinner. The tops of the bores are smooth and flat but have have a sharp lip where the top ring stops. Is that a ridge? I seem to remember ridges having more of a hill shape.

Do I need to hone and use new rings, or can I get by with just a hone? Or will it be fine the way it is?

FlexHone and file fit plasma moly rings are an option. yes it is a ridge & needs to be removed (rent a ridge reamer & carefull use of it, more on that if/when you get ready to use it) for new rings to be installed on a rering (no rebore). You could take one of your old compression rings & square up the ends & use it to measure taper and out of round amt to a fair degree. iirc way back a Mopar mag mentioned that 346 heads may or may not be induction hardened (someone will clarify) as it was a transition period.

There were pieces of plastic in the oil pan, as well a nut. Verified it is not a rod nut, maybe I dropped it through the valley during disassembly. No visible damage to cylinders or piston that I can see.

What are these pieces of plastic?? They have a very distinct shape

Rod bearing

#2 main bearing

5th picture down at the 2 o'clock position it kind of looks like there's a couple of chunks missing from the piston crown?

I didn't see those when I was looking at that piston, could be a camera trick. I'll look again tomorrow.

Is it normal for bearings to have lines like this? I didn't feel any groove when inspected them, just see visible lines

The plastic stuff is your cam gear self destructing. Nylon teeth can only take so much heat and abuse. Very common.

Time for a new double roller replacement.

Kevin

Cam timing gear teeth. It may have been replaced once already.

Those are original from the manufacturer. They are for piston orientation. Probably face the front of the block.

Old school performance adder - if you reuse those pistons, turn them around so they face the back of the block, less friction due to the pin not being in the center of the piston, but you might get a little piston slap noise.

I would hone that and install new rings, the ridge doesn't look like its too big but hard to tell in pics.

The one piston probably looks crusty because it sat with the exhaust valve open, no big deal.

Timing gear chunks. Original timing gears were nylon coated. When you buy your cam buy a new timing set.

Typical for man bearings to have those grooves. If you're just doing a hone'n're-ring, I would replace main and rod bearings. If you desire, you can bring the crank to have a machine shop to have the journals inspected/polished. Add a high-volume oil pump too.

Yes, sounds like you have a ridge. I wouldn't worry about it. I would hone the cylinders with a ball hone then I'd give it a set of new cast rings, I prefer Hastings for this job. Cast rings are more forgiving to hone grit and bore taper than moly rings.

Thanks for the tips everybody.

Its been 12 or so years since Ive honed, What type of honing tool do I need if Im using iron rings?

If there is any ridge at all you can and probably will do damage to the rings. Imagine a brand new ring slamming against it. And why does everyone think they need a "high volume" oil pump.

I have no idea why the high volume pump idea wont die. With new bearings recommended at the same time no less.

Im seeing that 240 grit is the recommended grit for honing for iron rings, is is that what you guys would use?

Reuse the bearings....no dice on the hv pump. Not fun w a stock pan and hv pump to look down bout half way through 2nd and not have any OP. YRMV

Ridge ream it, hone, rings and hammer down...

Definitely get the ridge out of the bores or you may end up having to tear it back down to replace pistons that have broken ring lands. My 77 440 idles in gear, hot, at 65lbs of oil pressure with a stock pump and the original factory bearings. No need for a high volume oil pump. A hone with 240 grit should be fine for cast iron rings. I've seen 180 grit hones used for cast before.

What are the ring groove sizes for my pistons? 5/64" 5/64" 3/16"?

Because he's slapping new bearings on worn out journals. This is the application hv pumps were intended for.

I thought about that too, however I had no problems when I threw a new set of rings in my 76 440.

If anything new bearing on a worn journal would potentially restore some clearance, not make it worse.

Everyone puts on a Hi Volume pump because that is the hi performance thing to do.

It will suck a 4qt sump pan dry that is low on oil

You got that right John. They do more harm than good and rob horsepower too.

Why would you use a stock pan?

Budget build. But I am trying to sell or trade my 699 pan to get at least seven quart for mine

If this engine is for a street car, I would use nothing else but a HV oil pump...


If for nothing else, the cooling capability...


Been running one for many years on a street car...


Temp is the enemy on a car that's gonna see extended running time...

The phrase if it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind here.

You are doing a basic stock spec rebuild here with some minor bolt on improvements. A couple of DIY mods to that stock pan to keep the oil in the sump is all it needs.

As for the HV pump, not likely needed. Here's a test. Use the original pump (after inspection) and make note of your hot oil pressure. It should be in the 55-65 psi range throttled up which is lots for an engine that won't see over 6000 RPM. Pull the relief spring out and shim it with a flat washer. If your hot oil pressure is now higher, the regular volume pump is able to supply more oil than you need.

If it isn't, then the cam bearings are likely worn out. On a low buck engine the easy way to crutch this up is a HV pump.

Kevin

Generating higher pressure and running unneeded oil thru the bypass actually generates more heat.

Kevin

HV...

Higher VOLUME...

Not pressure...

Because the car is stock looking and a pan that drags on the street if you look at a pothole crosseyed is not an option.

But if one does nothing to increase the flow a hi volume pump does nothing but cycle the excess volume thru the return ... creating heat ... and RAISES the pressure ... because pressure is a restriction to flow ...

Exactly guys. I have no idea why the hv pump idea wont die. With new bearings no less. It has staying power better than the pyramids.

No, that isnt what a hv pump was ever for. New bearings should bring up the pressure with a standard pump. I wouldnt bother changing them unless they were real bad anyway. At that point you'd likely want to polish or cut the journals, which also raises pressure.

A hv pump is a crutch for a trashed, ragged out engine. Thinking new bearings go hand in hand with one is wrong.

I bought a 4oo years ago that was supposedly rebuilt. The oil light would come on at idle. The guy never checked or replaced the cam bearings. Even with an HV pump the light would flicker at idle in gear. I put a HP spring in the HV pump, problem solved. Cam was bouncing around in what was left of the bearings. A year later I went through the engine, new cam bearings, did it right. Not thinking I threw the same pump back on. It was after the 2nd oil filter exploded that I realized what I had done. A good used stock pump cured that. I would only consider using an HV pump if the bearing clearances were huge and if they're more than .003, then the crank needs grinding anyway.

Alright guys I reamed the ridges off. It left a grainy surface but I think I did it right, my finger nail doesn't catch any sort of Ridge anymore.

Bad news though, I removed more bearings and inspected closer. My bearings and crank journals have scratches and a nicks. Gotta take the crank to a local grinder.

I run a STOCK pump on my 505" stroker with a 7qt pan. 75 psi at cold idle, 50 psi hot going down the road and never dips below 25 psi warm. All a high volume pump is good for is sucking the pan dry and robbing horsepower! In fact, the composite gear from Crane that I used with my billet roller cam says NOT to run a high volume pump!

It may be a bad hit to your budget but 2 years from now it may pay dividends.

Its gonna set me back a bit but not to bad. a re-ring kit with sealed power bearings and cast rings (with gasket set too) is 250 from mancini. I'm gonna see if I can price out the stuff I need individually from various sources for cheaper. The crank guy charges 25 for polish, 100 for grind.

You will probably find that a package deal is your best (cheapest) way to go. Years ago I worked at a NAPA store where we occasionally sold a crank kit that was a turned crank with matched rod & main bearings. I am sure that deal is still around at the major stores.

I just tore down a 360 that I intend to build for my daily driver. It had been built before and it's crank has been turned .010 on the mains and still looks good and will polish out. I have not pushed the pistons out yet, they are .040 over so I don't know how much the rod journals have been cut, but I am very hopeful. I bought the core for $100.00 and it came with a truck pan that I need. I will be keeping track of what I spend.

Get your crank ground and then check out RockAuto for your parts. I've found great deals with quality stuff.

when you rent the ridge reamer keep it flat against the bore & pull the cutter around with a box wrench as opposed to pushing it (the cutter) ahead of you. Stop often & feel for the amt of ridge left. it will generally not cut even (close tho) so discipline your self to stop when the lowest part of the ridge (least amt of ridge left) is just a hair above flush as you dont want to gouge below. EDIT As you are working around the cyl in a circle change/shift your position often so you are always (pretty much) pulling in a straight line toward you. Gets tough in some of the clocking positions on some of the cyls especially but that is an opportunity to discipline yourself/be a professional. In the car you'd wanna take the hood off but you are ahead of an "over the fender" overhaul cuz the block is already out

A little tip from an engine builder I worked for: after honing and cleaning your block, grab a roll of paper towels and a quart of transmission fluid. Then wipe down each cylinder with trans fluid and keep wiping with clean paper towels till no more dirt shows on the towel. A lot of people wash the bores with hot soapy water, dry them out and call it good. There is ALWAYS left over metal in the bores from honing. This way you know your bores are clean when you assemble your engine.

It's a good tip but not a secret.. I've been using that techneque since the peanut man was in the Whitehouse.

I would agree with you if he was having the crank ground or at least inspected. The journal wears with the bearing, and that says nothing about his cam bearings. He could put it together with the stock pump and see how his oil pressure goes or he could go straight to a hv pump.

You are too late with this advice, he already took the bore buster to the block ...

darn it........ the things we could add to this topic. No wonder the popo couldn't be out ran.

440 and busted

Ok you guys got me worried now, does it look like I reamed to much of the cylinder?

Elmor that is an excellent reminder on using tranny fluid & yes it does work well. Savoy that is 2 posts in a row from yoou which added nothing (constructive) to the thread & what is (the popo couldn't be outran) that you added to my quote?

Well you could always have the block sleeved... Years ago a friend of mine had a leaking soft plug in his race 440. He fought it for a while and could not get it out (still in the car)...so he figured he could drill through the plug, put a screw in the hole and crank it out. Unfortunately, he went through the cylinder wall with the drill bit and that ended his season. He had a lot invested in that block, so that hole got bored and sleeved.

It looks rough but there's no way to tell without being there in person. It will likely be okay as long as there isn't a steep between the work you did and the original bore.

Some folks are pretty sensitive to appearances.

Ok thanks feets I'll double check every cylinder. It felt uniform when I first checked though. If I did ream slightly to much, will it lose compression?

I wish you lived closer. We could throw it on one of my engine stands and keep each outer company. It would be a fun project.

Same here! I've noticed most of you guys are between Midwest to east coast.

Except polarapete. Think I'll surprise him at the next mopar meet here in tacoma

So I should live(post) by your rules? get over it.

I dropped off the crank today. He inspected it and said one of my main journals had a .002 flat spot. Said it would still be good with a 10 under grind.

What would cause that? I was thinking misfire from mixed up spark plug wires

People scoff, but i have ran old engines like that without changing stuff. Just opens a can of worms and worry like you have about the ridge reamer. Sure it wont have great ring seal. Psi might be a little low. If things are real bad you can just throw a hv pump on it until next winter...

I doubt that was caused by a misfire unless it was misfiring like that for thousands of miles . It was probably like that from new ... it's a spot to hold OIL

You won't know what you did to the block with the backyard hack boring bar till you get a rigid hone in it.

Ok Ive got my block fully broke down and mostly clean. Gonna hone then get it as clean as possible and ready for rotating assembly install.

I need to start thinking about my top end. Im buying 440 source stealth heads. I was open to iron heads, but the cost to get them rebuilt with minor porting was close to the cost of the stealths so Im going stealth. They advertise .510 max lift

Im looking at Camshafts. To sum up again, my b body is 4000lbs with driver. 727 auto, somewhere between 3000-3200 stall converter, dana 60 4.10 rear, rear wheels are 15x10 will have probably be 28" tires. manual brakes. Frame connectors.

In the area I live I can beat on the car hard. High rpm shifts and launches. WOT as much as possible. The car is built to be fun.

What camshaft would suit me best? what intake and carb would you use with it?

Oil the bores generously before, during, and after honing.

I'll let the others tackle the cam. Mine tend to lean towards the more conservative side.

Dually noted

Have the heads checked over before you install them. A little bit of money spent now can avoid disasters later. This should be SOP for ALL parts no matter who builds them. Check and correct.

The valve job on a mass produced head will be less than perfect and you need to verify guide clearance so now would be the time to have a performance valve job done.

The earlier Stealth heads had valve seat inserts that hung into the ports. This doesn't cause a reliability issue but it does affect flow. If the newer versions haven't addressed this, a few minutes with a die grinder can fix it.

Kevin

There are guys that really like the Hughes "whiplash" cams. I do not personally have one - but some other guys here have them.

Whiplash

I would give Jim a call at Racer Brown Cams. GREAT guy to work with.

http://www.4secondsflat.com/RB%20Cam%20Specs.htm

Im not picky about brand, Im partial to comp because Ive had one before and the quality was good and I can get them at good price and super quick delivery through summit racing.

I was hoping for some recommendations on specs that would be best for my combo and the way I drive. I am already in the process of selling some of the stock pieces from the engine that I wont be reusing so my budget is a little bigger now and I can afford to install better springs and retainers on the heads if I end up getting a cam with a little higher lift than .510

I think you should call dwayne porter. Have him prep the heads and he can give you cam advice. That'd be what I'd do.

I forgot about racer brown. I would have been calling around today except by the time I was ready to start, they are all closed and not open tomorrow so I thought I'd get some recommendations from you guys over the weekend

You can call Jim tomorrow ( Saturday) to pick his brain. Jim works later in the day and don't forget about EST. His hours are listed on the link I posted.

Hey wait, is Jim the guy that owns FBO or is he Racer brown, or are they the same thing?? I bought a locked out distributor from fbo once

Two different guys. I just grabbed the link off that site. Jim may ask for flow numbers from your heads and what you are planning to do with it. (street, street n strip, race ) The Stealths are a nice head but in truth on a CALIBRATED flowbench max out at 260-165 cfm. not the 290 I see advertised. Way more than enough to get your goal of 400.

Before you buy the stealth heads check out the sidewinders. mopartsracing.com Todd Marsh ( Marsh Performance) posts on here occasionally. He will set them up with the springs you need. Ready to go. Call him.

Definitely call Todd, good guy,great prices.

I didnt know about sidewinders, and now I see promaxx as well? When did these come out? Ive done lots of searches over the years about aluminum BBM heads and never seen these

I called tod. I'm going to go with the sidewinders, and I think he'll beat summits price on all the other parts I need too.

Now I just need to pick a cam, intake and carb

Try Delta Cam, they are in Tacoma and can grind any profile that you can think of. BTW I used iron 906 heads (stock valves & ports) out of the yard on my 1st racer and the last cam I used was a DC 296 x .557 Mopar solid cam. The new racer has a Comp hydraulic cam with more lift and duration and it has 906 iron heads that were massaged by a shop in SoCal. The dyno sheets that came with the engine show a max of 514 hp on pump gas. It was not $2,000.00

I've lost track. Did you ever measure how far down the pistons are?

See my recent ad in the Big Block parts section. It's only a 12-ish hour drive to me...

My pistons are down something like .150 or equally abysmal.

There is a member here that will hook me up with 440 magnum pistons if he can find them all. Currently he has 7, I'm waiting to see if he can find another. I'm ready to hone my block now, and the crank is being ground right now. When I get the confirmation on how far it was ground, I will buy bearings and rings

You might ask Todd to mill them to 70 or 72 cc to get some CR back. That might be money well spent if he is already taking them apart and checking them.. Obviously do the intake side too.

If the replacement pistons result in higher in the bore ring travel, that might be a problem.

If you cut them to 80 cc and cut the intake side the valve cover rail gets thin, at 70 I think it would disappear.

I think others have cut the Stealths to 72, but never done it myself.

Ive only installed a rope seal with the crank still in the engine. I used rtv where the seal ends meet each other. When installing a rope seal with the crank out, do you use rtv in the retainer before laying the seal in?

Yes & the Car Quest Victor Reinz JV551 rear main seal kit (just 2 halves & the goop) comes with a tube of it

Got the block cleaned and did the honing today. On closer inspection I saw that one of my cam bearings was gouged pretty bad. I've never had to replace cam bearings before, and a lot of the tools are fairly expensive starting around 120, so maybe more cost efficient to have the machine shop R&R the cam bearings for me

Its generally cost efficient to have them do it as the tool is expensive for the few times it is used (unless your friends tip you a bit for borrowing it if you buy one). You could redrill the cam bearing vertical feed holes to 1/16 and the ones that feed the heads to 1/8 which is plenty of oil for journals/journals that feed the heads & leaves more oil for more critical areas. probably not a dealbreaker in your deal and it'd be extra labor time for the shop or you could purchase them yourself then drill em & some shops squalk at carry in parts. Short version: yes let your shop install em & bring the cam in with you along with the block

If you have a shop do it (smart move) take your cam so they can trial fit it after they install the cam bearing. Big block MOPAR and small block Fords are the hardest out there to get in and NOT get a tight bearing.

Im thinking the same thing.. The price sheet I looked at for my local machine shop is $11 per bearing and their is most likely a shop supplies flat fee on top of that, so total cost is around $100 after tax

I did ok on my hone job as far as I can tell. Couldnt nail down the ideal 45 degree hatch, was closer to 30 degrees. Some cylinders had steady hatch, but some of the areas I reamed wouldnt blend completely with the rest of the cylinder.

For that kind of money I would suggest springing for the tool. I just checked ebay & for 150-200 you can get one & the one I have was one of those very reasonably priced ones. I ain't used it yet but I dont anticipate a problem. EDIT the pattern looks real rough in the pic

At this point you are just a punch and pistons from a totally fresh short block. Not finishing the deal might be penny wise and pound foolish.

Can't see picture at work , but not surprised , this is what happens when a novice uses a ridge reamer.


For the record, I'm a novice and after having to sleeve a block because a hack went at it with a ridge reamer I'd never recommend it''s use.

Again, a photo of metalwork can be really deceiving. That pic makes you think some freak went after the bore with a piece of 40 grit paper. That can very likely be the camera picking up reflections and making things look worse. In reality, the bore can be smooth as a baby's bottom and we'd never know.

There is no sign of the ridge reamer work so it could either be a nicely done job or an excessively deep cut.

The bores should be very smooth to the touch. I don't see any trace of oil in the bore. You needed to be oiling it before, during, and after honing. If not, you'll have lots of blow by and the rings may never seat.

Bores are super smooth. I'll take a better photo

And I used a lot of oil during honing, then cleaned with tranny fluid, then wiped wd40 on cylinders to prevent rusting

See? Photos of machine work can be very misleading.

The pics make it look almost scary rough.

I have a 1977 440 truck block at home that had almost no ridge in the bores. The truck drove onto the trailer and I took it apart because it had a cast crank and low performance rods with low compression cast pistons. I pushed the pistons out without reaming the bores even though I have a Matco ridge reamer and have used it successfully before. It is my back up block for the race car as I only saved the block and the main caps.
As for your project, You really need to have the machine shop check the block for taper with what you have done to the cylinders, have them push out the cam bearings, all the soft plugs, remove the oil pump drive bushing, let the block have a bath in their hot tank and then if it needs a bore job (and it probably will)...just do it once. Unless you have unlimited time to spend chasing problems. JMHO

Roadkill garage is a new show that did this exact sorta thing on a 351c. First episode is free on youtube for those interested. Dulich used diesel fuel as a lube the ball hone.

I always use transmission fluid. I hone with it, clean the cylinders with it, coat the finished walls with it to prevent rusting, and assemble my engines with it. Not the bearings but instead of oil I coat my rings and pistons with it. I do many engines a year and never have an issue doing it this way.

If it's gonna sit more than a couple days, I'd suggest you get something better than WD40 on it. Transmission fluid is an excellent lubricant/penetrant, as suggested...

I took my block to Bud's machine shop here in Tacoma. Looks like my reaming job was too aggressive. He's going to check out the cylinders and see if they can be bored. I guess my hone job was ok though!

Lesson learned with ridge-reaming...


Do to my own mistakes, I probably wont get this engine done for under $2000 due to the fact Im getting some machine work done and will need new pistons and rotating assembly balanced. But, I've already made some money from parts I wont be reusing so we will see!

Bud's machine shop is where the car in the picture got it's machine work done and the cam in the 360 is from Delta Cam. You won't go wrong there.

Alright, after 2 weeks of waiting got the block bored and honed +30, tanked and new cam bearings. Confirmed today.

In the meantime I was able to turn a good profit on the stuff I wouldnt be re-using from the engine. So, I decided to invest in some extras.

Tod at Marsh Performance is preparing some 84cc sidewinder heads with a bowl blend and isky springs for a solid cam and is setting me up with an adjustable 1.6 rocker/shaft kit for a good price. He says the springs will handle up to low 6 lift.

Got 440 source stock replacement forged rods, got my steel crank turned 10/10, and Ive found some TRW/Speed pro 6-pack pistons #L2355F.

So this is where Im at now, picking a cam. I cant find any information online about the max lift I can use with these pistons.

Calling a few cam grinders but always like to hear ya'lls opinions on cam selection.

Will probably be close to 10:1 without touching the decks and using the felpro .039 gasket. Would like to use thinner gasket, but don't know if its wise.. In fact, Ive been urged to zero deck the block which Id love to but dont know if I can afford it.

Used procharger & call it a day. I'll never go back to N/A. Found one for my 4.8l in my brand X truck and made 369whp on 6.5lbs boost. Stock everything, going on 60,000 miles now. Got another used one I'm jigging up for my 72 440 with a pretty much stock bottom end.

Another example, I didn't have to recut the pistons until I went to the solid roller.

old 440 with 6-pack pistons

with my 10/10 crank and intended use, what rod/main bearings you think will make most sense? Ive read a lot of guys using the clevite 77 "P" for street/strip cranks

This is what I ordered for bearing and rings.

CLEVITE "P" ROD BEARINGS: CB527P10

CLEVITE "P" MAIN BEARINGS: MS2324P10

SEALED POWER PISTON RING SET: E424K30

I will now be looking for running motors when I do this sort of build again.

$183 to re-ring and put new bearings in a good motor has turned into $900 For new pistons, rods, rings, bearings, crank grind, not to mention $300 in machine labor to bore +30; hot tank; R&R cam bearings.

The motor that you are building is the twin of the first bracket 440 I built more than 30 years ago. It was a .030 over motor with the L2355F forged pistons, heavy rods, stock stroke steel crank, factory balance, iron "906" heads with stock size valves and factory porting. I last ran a DC solid cam 296 degree .557 lift and had no clearance issues. The car weighed 3,700# with driver and ran about 110 mph in the quarter. There are math formulas to determine horsepower based on weight and quarter mile speed. Your engine will have better heads and a pro assembly job, so if it does not run better than my old motor something is wrong with it. It should be fun to play with. Good luck.

Sorry for your trouble but it turned into a $900 fiasco because you ran with bad advice ... look at it as an $$$ learning experience ... some jobs are better left to a professional.

Buying a running engine is not a guarantee for success, at least you now know what you have. Hopefully you didn't put the same deep in the hole, crappy cast pistons, back in the motor.

DEFINITELY a learning experience. Thing is with a lot of non running motors the sellers (understandably) dont want to go through the hassle of digging out the motor from their garage or car and removing main/rod caps for inspection when there is no guarantee of purchase. Plus its hard to argue with $400 for a complete engine and tranny. Better chance of running engine having good bearings though I think.

I think $900 is not bad for forged rods, crank and new 6pack pistons, & re-ring kit. True it was not what my original goal was, but in the long run Im getting better compression and more HP, and the engine will last longer

Just because an engine runs does not mean the inside is all good.

Look at any engine that is not machine shop fresh, with something more than a taillight a warranty, as a CORE and pay accordingly ... even from a friend.

I think you will be happier with what you have now and will easily reach your HP goal.

Been seeing this post but never responded till now. Not sure if it helps now but.. I bought my 64 Plymouth in 92, it came with a 74 stock 440, torker intake, holly dp and I put a 509 cam and springs. Never been apart. Come with good vert and 4.88 gears, 14-32 tires ladder bars. I only ran 1/8 mile and ran 7.78 et at 94 mph. Don't know what hp that equates to but pretty good for a 8 to 1 comp. engine. Maybe one of the other guys can say how much. Unless the engine you buy has a lot of ring ridge, put in new rings, maybe a valve job and add ons then go with it

Way past that point but yes you have echoed alot of what 8ve learned.

If the engine cant be ran to observe stuff and a teardown isnt going to happen before hand, just see if it turns over smoothly. That's not to say it is great inside, but you can feel/hear if things are totally Fubared.

Can a machine shop get close to a zero deck without having to assemble the rotating assembly into the block? Im asking here first because so I dont confuse things in translation to the machinist.

I remember in the past the shop had to mock up the engine to get measurements before decking and that was an extra $200. Im wondering if they can measure the height of the tallest piston/rod combo and deck to that height without have to mock up the block.

Only if he is able to take accurate measurements of ALL the involved parts and that is time, and time is MONEY. It's going to cost you less I would imagine for the guy to drop the crank in on 3 set of bearings and move one rod/piston combo to the 4 corners of the block and measure where the high and low points are and then cut the block.

Or ask him if he'll let you do it and tell him which corner to cut and how much to cut off.

John I called them and they will mock and zero deck for $160, much lower than I expected. So Im gonna do it.

I called Jim at Racer Brown. Gave him the info on my engine and its intended use. about 4100lbs with driver. automatic, 3000 stall & dana 60 4:10. With the flat top pistons at zero deck, 84cc combustion chambers, bowl blended sidewinder heads, and 1.7 rockers hes grinding me a solid single pattern cam with 254 duration @50, .554" lift, and I think he said 106 LSA. and the advance will ground into the cam.


He did say my stall will work, but I should upgrade to a custom made 5000 stall by a company he recommended. He says it will actually slip less than my 3000.

All your links and information has been very helpful along the way, thank you

Block has been zero decked. The machinist said they took almost .030 off. That is more than I thought it would be, when I added up the numbers.. something is off.

L2355F compression height is 2.061
Stock 440 rod length is 6.768
half stock stroke is 1.875

Total height= 2.061 + 6.768 + 1.875 = 10.704
440 Deck height is 10.725

So, the pistons should already be .021 in the hole..

Then I found the issue. The 440 Source stock replacement rods are not stock length. They are 6.76, not 6.768. Unless Im mistaken, they are shorter than a stock 440 rod by .008"

Now it makes sense, as my pistons were actually .029 in the hole

Almost got everything ready to assemble the short block. I was going to go with the cloyes race billet timing set, but after looking into Rollmaster, I decided to get a Rollmaster instead. It was about $50 cheaper than the Cloyes. CS5150 is the part number. it is the gold series with the IWIS chain. I also found a good deal on a set of arp main cap bolts (ARP 140-5002) so I got those too.

Sold the 699 pan, and Im looking for a pan that will work with my B body. Thinking Ill end up getting the 6qt E-body Hemi pan.