tanks in pa-4 vs surge tank

so this is for my soon to be multiport efi 70 duster. 400 hp at the wheels, tremec 3550 trans, etc. set up as a pro-touring/grand touring car. goal is ultimate drivability, anywhere, any time, any weather (except snow. tried that couple of years ago. didn't end well.)

anyway, im about to buy the fuel delivery system. last major component to purchase before I can tear the car down and start. budget is $250, which allows the tanks PA-4 or the surge tank.

Either way will get me what I want as far as fuel delivery. Surge tank has more complexity, but easier service. The tanks inc module will be simpler, but harder to side of road repair. I know with the tanks I may have trunk pan clearance issues, which I would solve with a screwed down dome, which would also serve as an access hatch for service if the worst was to happen.

What I guess it boils down to is the installation.

For those of you that have gone with either, can you post pictures and driving impressions, especially of the pr4? Ive got a daily driven efi muscle car with a surge tank parked in the driveway, so I know the results of that. Im just not seeing anywhere to stuff The hardware without going into the trunk. the surge tank experience has been wonderful, except for complexity and packaging. no starvation @2 gallons of gas in a 20 gallon tank, maximum sustained grip around traffic circles. I autocross it at around 5 gallons in the tank and have no starvation issues. so its a good setup. but two pumps, a 2 liter tank, all the plumbing, and an a-body. just not seeing where I could fit it other than the trunk.

So, shoot me some pictures of both ways if you have them. And if anyone has a stock a-body tank laying on the floor, I could use some measurements of the very top where it hits the trunk floor. The flat section where I could mount the tanks module and see if it would even fit.

Thanks

Michael

Well a surge tank is supposed to be close to the engine, not in the trunk !!

Take a look at this one ... doesn't get much simpler !!!

http://fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-GoEFISystemFuelCommandCenter

Not real sure why you think you have to have EFI for driveability. Never had an issue with a carbed car working, even in the snow.

Surge tanks don;t have to be monsters. You could probably fit one under the battery tray of sufficient size. Might have to custom fab it yourself to optimize the fit though. Another thought is in the wheel well forward of the tire, lots of room there and you could fab up a wheel well liner/rock guard to protect it. Just use the engine driven pump to fill the surge tank and the surge tank to feed the EFI pump. I usually plumb an overflow from the surge tank back to the main tank, not real hard to do. If you are ruynning a return style fuel rail setup then you can plumb that back to the tank as well, or to the surge tank. No need for a $400 billet wonder bottle to do this.

Consider time and materials to fab and $400. for a surge tank is cheap!! The pump is a good chunk of that. (My time is $60. to $100. per hour!) And then you need the skills and equipment.

I have a surge tank.
a member here sells a nice looking one with pump I believe in your budget.

I have not seen an in tank one with the baffles etc necessary for an efi pump for much less than 400, but if you found one, I would go that route.

I would not be so concerned about road side service.
I had tried to plan for that with the surge tank.
Carrying an extra spare pump and hoses so I could bypass the system if I needed to. But really it wasn't something easy to do, even in a parking lot.
And you could do the same really with a second inline pump if you had to, surge tank or in tank just to limp it somewhere.

If you really worried about how much your time was worth you'd never build your own for fun now would you? It'd be cheaper to pay someone else to do it for you. So that argument is nonsense, unless I managed to wander into the checkbook rodder forum?

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cee-4041

Would you consider buying or making something like this? As long as it fits between your fuel tank straps you're good. I can't imagine you ever losing fuel coverage with one. Simple, single pump, all external and very accessible. I'm definitely considering one for my EFI swap.

I personally wouldn't run a sump like that with EFI unless its just for straight-line racing or the tank is always full. EFI really needs constant fuel - no air - EVER. Hence the in-tank pumps with adequate baffles OR a surge tank.

As for the comment regarding the time/cost to build ... there aren't many guys on the planet who build "everything". At some point you have to look at things and consider that your time is better spent elsewhere - either in other area of your project or at a job that makes you more money than an item is worth. I'm all for building stuff - its how I make a living - but my time is way better spent building and selling my product than building something like a surge tank. I can buy three surge tanks with what I make in the same amount of time it would take to build one. Now if I wanted a custom surge tank to fit a specific area, no problem, I'd build it. But in some cases reinventing the wheel is just impractical.

Absolutely, there are things I cannot do, I can't weld well enough to trust my work, so I farm it out. I'll tack it then have someone better than me do the welding.

But a surge tank really isn't rocket science. Heck some metal pipe with a couple thread on caps would suffice if ugly doesn't bother you. Being on a budget I can't see spending extra money on something I could make (surge tank) when I could spend it on something I can't make (intake, cam, etc) and $400 buys a lot of stuff I can't make.

I think his point is that for $400 you get gauges, fittings, hose, and most importantly, the in-tank pump. If you build your own, you will have to buy all of those things anyway except for the tank... so lets say that it costs $150 for the tank itself. Not a terrible deal, and it looks better than anything that I personally (and most people) would be able to make!

As for the original question, I myself agonized over the same issue when I did my EFI project. I went with the Aeromotive Phantom kit which is similar to that Tanks-inc kit and am only sort of happy with the install. I couldn't bring myself to cut the trunk floor, so I spaced the tank down with some heavy rubber strips. If you are fine with cutting the trunk then do that.

Is this Tanks-Inc tank available? Would probably put you over your budget, but sure is nice.. I 100% would have gone this way if they had been available when I did mine:

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/p...prod/prd481.htm

Those baffles in most OEM efi fuel tanks are basically setup the same was as this sump, just with the mess inside the tank. If anything, a weld on sump would work better. You are not uncovering that thing in a turn.

The biggest problem with aftermarket efi is keeping fuel in the lines and air out. Every in-tank pump out there has some method of keeping the pickup submerged - even if only for a a short period while you turn or stop. This sump will be uncovered at some point when you slow down or stop, even if the tank is close to full.

Anyhow, why take the chance. If you're going to weld something into the tank, why not weld in the tank recess and install an in-tank pump. As for access, I suppose if you're so inclined you could make an access from the trunk but in reality, how likely is there to be a pump problem and even if there is a problem, Murphy's Law dictates that it will be in the middle of nowhere on a rainy Sunday night and you won't be able to do squat about it anyway.

What would you do if you high pressure "external" pump failed in the middle of nowhere, you're still stuck !!

had not thought of wheelwell for the surge tank.

I am also surprised by the lack of support for the tanks module. figured there would have been more support of that system.

and how it lays out price wise is about the same. I would actually rather keep the pump in the tank, though, just for simplicity and cleanliness sake.

but please, keep the conversation going.

That tanks module is supposed to be recessed down Into the tank you don't really want it flush with the top of the tank you would have to cut a section of floor out to make clearance for all the lines. I have the tanks in tank in my duster. For the price it wasnt worth me messing with. Well my tank also developed a few little holes around the spare tire well.

What would you use to fill the surge tank, a mechanical or another electric pump?

You use this ...

Either one.

I have worked on a few mopar factory EFI fuel tanks where the "baffles" are really just a tin bowl welded to the bottom of the tank so the fuel pickup can sit inside it. Basically the same as the summit piece I linked, but with a step at the front so fuel cannot flow away during braking, and internal to the tank of course.



Fix it far cheaper, easier and faster than an in-tank pump. Many parts stores carry a generic in-line pump. I would consider an in-tank pump if it could be serviced without dropping the tank.

If you want killer reliability and active fuel siphoning, you could consider something like a Camaro ZR1 pump. It has the option for remote pickups [that won't suck air] and returns fuel into the basket shown..keeping the pump submerged.


It'll take some fabrication work to get it in the tank, but it would be power to the pump, OEM reliability and one line coming out of the tank.

http://www.vaporworx.com