Dana and /or 8 3/4

Well this is my first post since the new board so it's been a while . A friend just bought a 70 GTX 440 , 4 spd . beautiful . I noticed it has an 8 3/4 . I always though 440 4 spd cars had dana either A33 or A34 . Nothing on the fender tag and he say the build sheet says 8 3/4 . Did any 440 4 spd cars get out the door with an 8 3/4 ?

I'm sure I've seen many original 440 4 speed cars with 8 3/4 with 3.23 open rear ends in them. I learned a long time ago to Never say Never(Mopar NEVER made that combination) when it comes to cars, especially our favorite Mopars If he is lucky enough to have the original broadcast sheet it will have the code for the rear end and gear ratio

70 GTX with a 440 and a 4 speed would have a Dana 60, it has the wrong rear. What is the 3 digit axle code on his broadcast sheet that thinks it's calling for an 8 3/4 ?

The only way you can know if a car is "original" is to have had it in your possession from when it left the factory. Lots of Danas disappeared (stolen/purposely swapped) when the cars were near new. AMHIK

Spoken as truth...

And even then, things 'happened' in the plants...


NO guarantee the end result followed the build to the letter...

There are many stories about the factory swapping parts because of parts shortages on the assembly line but I ain't gonna believe they ever made drastic swaps liked 8 3/4" in place of the Dana on a Hemi/440 4-speed car.

Cab has it right...

ANYTHING was possible...


We've talked to many different folks who were right there during the build...

From line workers, all the way up to 'management'...


I heard it from my own family members, who were right there at Dodge Main, and Lynch Road...

The variables were endless...

It went way beyond 'shortages'...


'Never say never' is the only safe observation...

Get a picture of the fender tag

I had a 70 Coronet RT 440/4 speed with 3.23 8 3/4 original rear.....didn't you have to order the trac-pac or super trac-pak to get the dana?

So what code would be on the fender tag to be a Dana or 8 3/4? The owner says it is coded for an 8 3/4 on the build sheet . I haven't seen it. Is there an axle code on the fender tag ? He bought the X from RK Classics

[quote=John_Kunkel]

I agree 100%! I honestly can't stand the "Never say never" that gets thrown around all the time.
If I ordered a 1970 GTX 4spd car brand new, you think I would accept an 8 3/4 rear end in place of the Dana 60 that should be there? That I paid for? Nobody would notice???
I don't think so...

Danas only came with 3.54 and 4.10 gears so maybe it was ordered with a 3.23 which would be a 8.75

And as it should really have had a dana, then it would have to have the 26" rad as well, right?

THE PROBLEM IS.....many many cars got ordered by the dealerships and people who came through the doors were not Mopar purists with a restoration mentality.
I was a car nut 14 year old in 1968 and when my Dad went into a showroom to buy a new car it could have had a 7 1/4 under it and we wouldn't have known the difference. Sure if you ordered it you would have (possibly) known, but most of us were so involved with what was under the hood (that engine! that chrome air cleaner!) that the underside of the car could go fish.

How many hard core drag racers were buying new cars in 1968? Some, for sure.

But the 98% majority of cars were bought by guys who either needed a new car or thought they did or traded every three years because that's what they always did. Some wanted a big car, some wanted a cheap car with a white roof so you wouldn't have to buy air conditioning. Some wanted a new car that'd go fast, like a lady I go to church with who drives an original 428 Mustang that she bought new because she wanted to have a sporty car that was fast. She wouldn't know what rear end is under the car and even if she did she wouldn't know what was supposed to be under there. My father-in-law liked to go fast so his car had a 440. That's all he needed to know. It went fast. The car before that was a 4-speed Barracuda, one of the fastbacks, but the family grew and he needed a larger car that suited his image and went fast. So he went to the Chrysler-Plymouth dealer and sat in a few and bought the one with the 440.

You don't have to believe it. I know how it was because I witnessed it. And the recollections of the guys who actually built the cars cannot be discounted, just because you cannot imagine it happening that way.

R.

Ok, got it, if there was a shortage of Plymouth emblems on the line they just shipped the car with Dodge emblems.

Page 63...

August, 2015 Mopar Collector's Guide...


'Jim's '63 was built new at Chrysler's Windsor, Ontario plant, and true to its Canadian roots, the car was born with a very strange mixture of Dodge and Plymouth parts combined. While looking like every other Plymouth in most aspects, the dash, instrument panel, and interior are that of a Dodge B-body, not a Plymouth, and that's the way the car was built new.

I don't agree. I' m talking about the youth of the day, (back then). The servicemen with their military pay that read car magazines, that the performance cars were built for. You didn't have to be a "professional racer", to buy a performance type car. 98% of the cars sold were NOT high performance cars. The family types bought wagons and four doors, some bought economical type cars. And the ones that read Hot Rod, Car Craft, High Performance Cars, got the comparisons from tests they did on all the models. And all the specs. There were no "Mopar purists" or "restoration mentality" , I don't even know what that was supposed to mean! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Again, if I ordered a new 1970 GTX with a 4spd, Popular Hot Rodding probably mentioned that a Dana 60 should be under my car and I surely would look.

Yes, this is not new to anyone. Canadian built designed to sell to the Canadian market. NOT in the U.S. GM did the same, Beaumont and Arcadia come to mind, a mix of Chevy and Pontiac parts. And Plodges.

PLODGE, this is for real, not because they ran out of parts. A mix of Plymouth and Dodge vehicles built in Canada.
Plodge, a portmanteau of the names Plymouth and Dodge, is a name informally used to refer to vehicles Chrysler Canada built with a mix of U.S. Plymouth and Dodge parts for the Canadian and export markets. This practice allowed dealers in Canada to offer a wider array of vehicles at lower development cost in the relatively small Canadian market.[citation needed] For example, a Plymouth with a Dodge grille and taillights became a Dodge without the expense of tooling a vehicle for the market. On the Dodge Dart introduced in 1960, only the interiors were shared; Canadian-market 1960-61 Darts had Plymouth dashboards. The 1965 to 1966 Dodge Monaco used a Dodge body, with a Plymouth Fury dashboard and interior trim.[citation needed] Not all Canadian-market Chrysler-built vehicles were badge engineered in this manner, however; The DeSoto Diplomat, for example—a rebadged Dodge Dart—was never sold in Canada, where DeSotos were similar to the US models. The Canadian 1960 DeSoto Adventurer looked like the American 1960 DeSoto but used the upholstery and door panels from the 1960 Chrysler Saratoga.[citation needed]

"Plodges" were also built in the United States for markets outside of North America. The first American-built export "Plodge" was built in the U.S. for the 1935 model year. Two years later, the American firm began building Plymouths with DeSoto-like grilles for export. The Canadian operation began building these export cars in 1939. Dodge Kingsways were sold not only in Canada but in export markets including Hawaii from 1946 to until 1959, when the territory became the 50th state.

And if the car was minus an axle-package, or came with A/C, that open 3:23 would'a been mighty disappointing...

Along with a 're-badge'...

Never heard of it, but from what I've been able to gather, the practice ended in the 50's...

Which leaves the burden of proof...


Get me something from someone inside Windsor who saw indiscriminate 'parts swapping' as the norm moving into the 60's...

A little stronger case than the web, or an opinion...

This is all well known and documented. That is how the page 63 MCG (embellished to make it interesting) car you mentioned was built. You can believe it was some "parts shortage" or whatever you want, but that was standard for the Canadian market. It sounds like you don't believe this was done. 1960 to 1962 Canadian Valiants were substantially the same as American models, with minor trim and mechanical equipment differences. 1963-64 Canadian Valiants had U.S. Valiant front sheetmetal on the U.S. Dart body. 1965 Canadian Valiants were available in the full range of sizes and models offered across the American Valiant and Dart models, but all Canadian-market cars used Dart instrument clusters and were badged "Valiant". For 1966, the Valiant Barracuda was the only offering in Canada on the U.S. Valiant's 106 in (269.2 cm) wheelbase, with no Valiant station wagons in Canada for 1966.

"Plodge" vehicles include:

DeSoto Diplomat: Dodge Dart body, DeSoto-like side trim
Dodge Kingsway: Dodge body, Plymouth fenders and trim
Dodge Mayfair: Dodge front clip, Plymouth body
Dodge Regent: Dodge front clip, Plymouth body
Dodge Crusader: Dodge Front Clip (grille minus six "teeth") Plymouth body
Dodge Viscount: Dodge front clip, Plymouth body
Dodge Monaco 1965-1966: Used 1965-1966 Plymouth Fury dashboard
Valiant 1960-1966: parts mix varied by model year
Dodge Dart 1960-1961: Plymouth instrument panel
Once the Canada–United States Automotive Products Agreement (the "Auto Pact") took practical effect in 1967, virtually all differences ceased to exist between U.S. and Canadian Chrysler products. However, until the early 2000s the model distribution within and among marques was sometimes different in Canada than in the U.S. The Dodge and Plymouth Neon was sold in Canada as the Chrysler Neon; the Dodge Dynasty and Intrepid were likewise both badged and sold as Chrysler models in Canada. In 2003 this practice was stopped and the U.S. and Canadian marque and model ranges are fully aligned.

Exactly! Nothing strange here, built for the Canadian market.. true to its Canadian roots.
I've tried to explain, but since I can't produce a person from the Winsor plant, this is my opinion. Good enough

A 1970 GTX ordered with a four speed got a Dana 60- Heavy-duty 4spd REQUIRED A MANDATORY AXLE PACKAGE.
Automatic cars could get you your open 3:23's

Prime example.

http://blogs.artvoice.com/avdaily/2012/02/25/yak-car-pic-of-the-day-214/

Thought this may help from the RTS 1970 brochure, no 3:23, 3:55, or 3:91 ratios (8 3/4 ratios) with manual transmission and 440 engine

I was 20 in 1970 and a extreme car nut. I heard of a lot of parts swapping late at nite at the dealerships, mostly from the Ford camp. That rear could have disappeared that way, just think of the warranty problems with the 8-3/4. Every and I mean every Dodge-Plymouth 4-speed 440-Hemi had the Dana rear that I looked at. You have to understand the mindset of us young kids then, very knowledgeable on high performance items from any of the big three. Something like that would not have happened to the guy who bought it, or his buddy's would let him know it was wrong. On the mismatched cars out of country, I almost went to Mexico to buy a 2002 2-door Durango Ramcharger, to replace my 1990, why it was not offered in the states I don't know.

Ended in the mid 60's.

Look in a Canadian 64 Dodge B-Body. It will have the same dash as a Plymouth.

My 65 Polara wagon is another example. It has a Fury dash.

Kevin

Right! You are the guy I'm talking about, regular car type that was into the new performance cars at the dealer. Now what you said about shady dealers, that could happen. But I agree with you that Hemi and 440 HP 4spd cars got Dana 60's!

Yes, your Canadian built car is and was built that way for the Canadian market. As already posted, this ended in 1967.

I would vote for the Dana getting plundered some time in the cars life.

The fender tag might not list the axle package but it will list the transmission.

If it really is a D21 GTX it will have a Dana. If the car had drum brakes in the front it would have to have a 3.54 Dana

At the opposite end of this situation......I had a close friend who bought a 70 383 automatic Super Bee around late 77, low mileage, cast off "gas guzzler". I watched him and the next two owners beat it to a pulp, finally wrecked around 80. I personally removed a nice 3.54 Dana 60 from it. How did it get there? No one ever had a clue.????
Jess

My guess would be a junkyard 'upgrade' in the first 7 years of its life. Typical back in the day mod to get a deeper set of gears. Not a factory install. Seven years is a long time, guys modified their cars right away with over the counter parts. J.C.Penny stores had a performance parts department back in the day, anybody remember A/FX slicks in the store?

I agree, it was "removed". In the 70s I personally removed three Danas from GTXs, one being a 69 b-5 blue convertible GTX (bought for $125) used engine trans and rear in another car. Scraped all three. Chevy guys wanted those Danas bad for their race cars, even used the four speeds. At the time the 70 was like a ugly sister anyway so no big loss. No such thing as numbers matching-restoring mindset then, didn't have a clue what we had, and all dirt cheap.

My very first Mopar 40 yrs ago in 1976 which hooked me on Mopar was a 1968 GTX 440 4 speed convertible with a 4.10 dana original

I agree it was more than likely swapped for the 8 3/4", possibly for better gas mileage or a problem with the Dana.

My dad is a prime example of this, back in '73 he bought a '71 Charger R/T 440-6 4-speed car that was without it's original engine or transmission. After replacing the 440 and getting the car back up and running, he realized the Dana suregrip was slipping. So... He went to a local junkyard and bought a 8 3/4" with a 3.91 suregrip from under a '70 Challenger and put it into the Charger.

Somewhere there's a '73 318 Charger running around (probably scrapped) with a Dana under it, because after removing the Dana from his '71 a local guy came by looking for a deeper set of gears for his '73. Needless to say, Dad sold him the 4.10 Dana for practically nothing...

If you wanted a 4 speed behind a 440 HP engine, an axle package was mandatory. That put a Dana out back. Somebody swapped that rear end, 3:23 wasn't an available ratio to choose as an option with that engine/trans and model. (440/4speed in a 70 RT)

A local guy just bought a 440-6 4 speed 69.5 Roadrunner from the original owner.

The car has an 8 3/4 rear with 3.23:1 gears.

Story is that the original owner was working out of town in the early 70s and quickly grew tired of the 4.10:1 Dana on the highway so he installed the 8.75 with more highway friendly 3.23 gears.

Fortunately he kept the Dana in the barn for 40 some years.

I suspect this was a rather common occupancy back in the day.