Something hitting, can't tell what...

Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 01:51 AM

Installed a Turbo action 10" converter, using a B&M neutral balance flex plate and ARP 12pt 7/16 converter bolts.

Can't tell what it is,thought maybe the bolts were hitting the edge of the pan but can't find any witness marks.

Here's a video if it helps, this is the second time I've installed the engine and trans in the last month...at my wits end with this,hoping someone here had the same issue and found the problem.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v124/hotstik440/Mobile%20Uploads/th_20150226_172712_zps7bnejaii.mp4[/IMG]

Posted By: 1974Cuda360

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 02:11 AM

I'm familiar with that sound. What you're hearing is the torque converter bolts hitting the webbing on the engine block. If you check your torque converter bolts, you'll probably find out that they are loose. I've done a lot of research online over the years trying to figure out why some people have this problem and others don't. You should try using Loctite and re-installing the bolts. If that doesn't work, you might have to have the bolts drilled and install lock wires to keep the bolts from backing out. That's what I did and it was the best thing I could of done to fix the problem.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 02:22 AM

Thanks, but I just reinstalled the bolts with the engine and transmission out of the car.I tightened them as much as possible until it spun the engine and used Permatex thread sealer gel. Couldn't get a torque wrench on them.Today is the first startup since.
I can't see any marks on the bolts, maybe I'll try painting the heads to see what's up.

Is there anything else it could be?

I ran a stock converter with 5/16 bolts and never had a problem.I haven't measured them both yet,but they look about the same.Tired and cold and done for the day, will check it out tomorrow.

Is there a set of bolts with a thinner head than the ARP's?

Posted By: 1974Cuda360

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 02:26 AM

Are you using the right bolts? The head of the correct bolts is thinner than normal bolts.

Posted By: bboogieart

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 02:31 AM

My guess.
Tight enough to turn over the engine isn't tight enough.
Lock the flexplate with a vice grip or a screw driver to hold the converter in place.

Posted By: burdar

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 04:48 PM

Also, make sure the bolts aren't bottoming out against the converter. It's possible the bolts are too long and the head of the bolt might not be tight against the flexplate.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/27/15 06:50 PM

Quote:

Also, make sure the bolts aren't bottoming out against the converter. It's possible the bolts are too long and the head of the bolt might not be tight against the flexplate.

Let us know what you find

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 07:28 PM

Thanks,will do, just waiting on it to warm up and get a day off.

Bought a white paint pen to paint the bolt heads and see exactly where they making contact.I figure ARP bolts are harder than the block so it wont make any marks on the bolt faces.

The only two bolt sets Summit sells in 7/16 are ARP and TCI,which are both 1/2" long under the head but they give no specs for head thickness.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 10:51 PM

Ok, I painted and numbered all four converter bolts and ran the engine for at least 10 minutes...not one scratch on any of them!

I put my ear up against the oil pan and it sounds like something is knocking on the pan.
I did weld in sheet metal baffles, but after the fist time I had this issue I cut out the front section in line with the windage tray because I thought the crank was rubbing the baffles.

I did not hear this before I did the baffles and converter,nothing else has changed.

Could it be rod knock? Failed bearing? I inspected the oil very closely and not a speck of metal in it,clean as it was out of the bottle.
The windage tray had at least a 1/2" cleareance to the crank and rods. Whatever it is doesn't seem to change the way the engine runs but the noise is driving me crazy... what am I missing here ???

Posted By: feets

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 10:55 PM

Run it again. Put your fingers on the side of the pan and see if you can feel the same pattern as the sound.

The other option would be to use a piece of tubing as a stethescope and listen for the noise in the pan.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 10:56 PM

Rod knock is more of a thunk, thunk, thunk and not a ting.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 11:03 PM

Quote:

Run it again. Put your fingers on the side of the pan and see if you can feel the same pattern as the sound.

The other option would be to use a piece of tubing as a stethescope and listen for the noise in the pan.

I did feel it all over,even put my ear against the pan,can't even pinpoint where it's coming from.

It is a very tinny sound...makes me think very light contact but infuriating.

Posted By: TJP

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 11:44 PM

Quote:

I did not hear this before I did the baffles and converter

My bet is on the baffles

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 11:47 PM

When you installed the converter to the flexplate how much pull-up was there? IOW, with the converter pushed as far as it would go into the trans, how much air gap (pull-up) was there between the drive lugs and the flexplate?

If little/none the converter bowl could be rubbing the pump casting.

Posted By: feets

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 02/28/15 11:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I did not hear this before I did the baffles and converter

My bet is on the baffles

That's why I suggested listening to the pan. My money is on the baffles too.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 12:01 AM

The only baffles left are a small dam at the rear of the sump,covered by the windage tray. They are welded in and don't move.

Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 01:01 AM

As the man said: "When hearing hoof beats think horses not zebras"

Posted By: TJP

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 01:16 AM

Quote:

The only baffles left are a small dam at the rear of the sump, covered by the windage tray. They are welded in and don't move.

Maybe the baffles are tweaking the windage tray and causing the interference???

You have two changes/scenarios, Baffles, or converter, bolts, flex plate and/or bolts ETC. Your description sounds more like a lower end interference with sheet metal IMO. hard to diagnose over a webpage but

I chased a noise several year back that wound up being a rod bolt BARELY kissing the pan. A tweak with a hammer and all was good. The rub mark was BARELY visible to the naked eye but it was NOISY!!! Good luck and keep us posted

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 07:09 AM

Do you have the stone shield installed? I had one that was cracked and would fall back intermittently into the convertor area. Made strange sound no fewer than 10 pro and advanced shade tree mechanics declared was everything from a dying engine to fried trans. You had the trans pulled so maybe it was damaged.

Posted By: I_bleed_MOPAR

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 05:16 PM

^^^^^^
This.

The small shield on the 383 would rub the converter bolts. Had to flatten a rib on it to stop the noise. I know you painted the bolt heads but maybe the shield is hitting the flex plate or converter?

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 05:55 PM

As shown in the video,the shield isn't on there.

Here's a pic of clearance to the windage tray.

Another...

One more...

Posted By: CrazyD

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 06:37 PM

Dipstick rattling against tray?

Posted By: I_bleed_MOPAR

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 09:41 PM

Sorry. Didn't watch the video as it never would play for me.

Did you see Johns post asking about converter depth?

Posted By: moparjimbo

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 11:04 PM

Cannot tell how close it is from the pic angles, but could it be pickup tube rattling against the windage tray?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/01/15 11:27 PM

As noted the only thing(s) that were changed that took it from quiet to hitting was welding the baffles in the pan and the TC change? No pan change?, no w tray change?, no pump change (gasket/no gasket between pump/#5 cap)?, no bending of w tray?. I couldn't play the video either, they wanted me to subscribe

. The pan baffles are all well below the w tray correct? Same pan gasket (thickness in other words). The tinny sound sure sounds like w tray but sounds like your visual (not the pics) is looking OK there. I'd stay on the TC/shield. Keep us posted. Are you SURE nothing is hitting the tray? EDIT wouldn't that be a bite if it IS the dipstick

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/02/15 01:04 AM

It's in the pan near the #3 cap, I can feel it now.
I think baffles tweaking the tray nailed it...
Rod bolt bareley kissing the tray. Looking at my pics the tray looks slightly elliptical.
The pickup was a little loose but I tightened it another 360�, and doubt it would transmit through the pan so well. I guess I just couldn't pinpoint it yesterday, but today I can press on the pan and hear a very slight tone change.

I guess I get to pull the whole deal out again.
I really hoped it was bolts rubbing but after watching it run with a maglight I can see they are not even close to hitting anything.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/02/15 07:14 PM

Since I am tearing it all apart again, I went ahead and sprung for a Kevko M302 pan and pickup.Gonna delete the windage tray. Hopefully this will be the last time I pull this engine for many years.

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/10/15 09:38 PM

Looks like the tang over the oil pump on the windage tray got pushed in on the driver side and the #5 rod was just grazing it.I pulled it back out with my pinky.Probably bumped it over installing the pan, tray is so malleable...grrrr...nothing but noise.

Don't see a need for the tray with the Kevko pan while it's apart,so deleting the tray.

Can I use my piston stop to block the engine up to tighten my converter bolts without damaging the forged aluminum piston,or should I use rope in the cylinder?

Posted By: stumpy

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/10/15 10:24 PM

I sure wouldn't use the piston stop. It wasn't meant for that. Just block the flexplate with a big screwdriver. You just need to get the bolts tight not break them off.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/11/15 06:40 AM

Stick a hammer handle in the way of the crank. Back off crank once done, then roll the engine forward again

Posted By: KnuckleDuster

Re: Something hitting, can't tell what... - 03/11/15 01:14 PM

Screwdriver trick worked,gave the wrench a few light taps with a rubber mallet.

Thanks for all the help everyone!