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Starting problems 71 Challenger
Posted By: Wiggy
Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/13/15 11:02 PM
Hi
I'm new here and having a few problems with my 71 Challenger. I have spent the last 3 years completing a restoration that was started by the previous owner.
I am almost done and just finishing off making a custom dash board will new gauges. Most of the time I've owned the car its always started and run, sometimes taking a while to start due to it standing but always started eventually.
Recently though, all I am getting is a clicking noise like the starter solenoid is sticking? Try as I may, it just ckicks. I've tried the old technique of giving the starter a bash with a lump of wood but this isn't working.
I've also noticed the ballast resistor is get very very hot, not sure if this is more than usual as I know they get hot but to the point where it smells like burning and smokes (this may be the WD40 I sprayed on it when cleaning and re-fitting)
Anyway, anyone got any ideas on the starting problems, I suspect starter and/or solenoid but wanted to check I wasn't missing anything before ordering a new one.
Battery is fine and kept on a maintenance charger, so always fully charged.
Thanks.
Posted By: ChallengerTA
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/13/15 11:25 PM
Could be connection at Battery. Remove and clean both terminals. Check connections at starter motor. Remove and clean all terminals on starter motor.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/13/15 11:31 PM
Battery connections are OK, I've had it off recently and its all clean. I will check the starter connections as well, maybe take them off and clean just to be sure
Thanks
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/13/15 11:43 PM
Quote:
Hi I'm new here and having a few problems with my 71 Challenger.
Recently though, all I am getting is a clicking noise like the starter solenoid is sticking?
Welcome aboard! A clicking solenoid ain't sticking but instead does not have enough voltage at the solenoid once the solenoid rod moves far enough to engage the starter (not enough left for the "holdin" winding to keep it engaged. So it releases & with the starter disengaged there is now enough juice for the "pull in" solenoid to pull it in again & it repeats this cycle in rapid fashion & that is the clicking you are experiencing. You're sure the batt is good? Clean ALL LARGE cables/terminals: batt to starter relay/starter relay to starter/batt neg to sheetmetal/sheetmetal to eng block/starter to block including both sides of the flat plate (if used)
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 03:32 AM
Hi, thanks
I assume the battery is OK, it was fine last time it was started and turned the engine over no probs until it fired. As mentioned I don't start that often as I am in the middle of finishing it off but like to start it once in a while and get it up to temp just to make sure everything stays free.
When not running the battery is on a maintenance charger to keep it topped up and stop the alarm draining the battery.
When I turn the key to start it clicks like the solenoid has popped, the when I release the key it clicks back. It does sound like a flat battery but even if the battery wasn't at its best, I'd still expect it to turn the engine, even slowly??
I'll check all connections but from a quick check early all look good. I'll take them apart and spray on some WD40 or something to make sure all contacts are good.
Thanks again
Posted By: Sxrxrnr
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 03:34 AM
Starter could be locked/entangled with flywheel. Remote chance. If standard shift put in top gear, give car a push with clutch out and see if engine turns over. If locked starter this will normally free it up. Pushing car backward is recommended.
Could engine be hydro locked. Unlikely but just throwing stuff against the wall.
Have you tried jumping car at point where battery cable and ignition switch wiring come together(relay)next to battery,,,,meaning bypass ignition switch to turn over.
Are battery cables clean and tight at each end?
If this all fails would suspect selonoid or starter itself.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 03:47 AM
Thanks for the comments/ideas.
I thought that too about the engine and sadly don't have a socket big enough to fit the crank pulley bolt and it's an auto so can't put in gear to move it that way. I can move the pulley a very small amount by hand holding onto the pulley itself, which suggest the engine is OK. As mentioned it was running a couple of months ago no probs and the engine oil is clear and relatively new.
I might try the bypass idea you mentioned to take the starter relay out of the mix but the fact that it's clicking suggests the relay is doing what it should.
I might take the one of the batteries out of my truck as well and try that on there, I know they are good batteries on that
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 04:16 AM
You might take off the 2 cables off of the starter & clean the 2 (large/small) terminals with a wire brush then clamp a red jumper cable on both of em and the black jumper cable end to the nearby starter ear then connect the other ends of the jumper cables to your truck battery setting on the ground by the Dr front wheel & see if it cranks. this'd keep the "connection" sparks from messing up the starter threaded studs which it would if you made your last connection at the starter. This'll take the batt/starter/eng lockup out of the way.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 04:36 AM
Good idea, I was considering removing the starter altogether to try this but makes sense to leave in situ, saves the starter jumping all over my bench as well
Posted By: skicker
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 05:33 AM
Almost sounds like a bad battery that shows it has a good charge...If not I think I would pull all of the plugs if it was me and see if it will turn over freely.
You never know a float may have stuck and it could be hydraulic locked...
Posted By: moparjimbo
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 06:46 AM
First step would be a voltmeter on battery. 12.5 volts as it sits. Crank car. If it stays 12V or so, the starter isnt kicking in and dropping it down. Check for 12V on small terminal of starter. If 12V there and 12V on big terminal, starter is issue. If not 12V on small wire, relay or wiring is the issue. If it drops to like 10V or less, starter is getting voltage on both terminals, drawing power and trying to go. Still might be starter, or battery may just be weak.
Posted By: Adam71Charger
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 06:20 PM
Ive had a battery show 12v and still not deliver enough current to starter due to corroded wire. corroded wires and bad grounds are typically the cause of electrical problems on older cars. Sometimes the battery cable looks fine from the outside but cut it open and its corroded and breaking apart.I would try what robert said and deliver full voltage to the starter with good cables as a start
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/14/15 07:02 PM
I would not put WD40 on your cleaned cable terminals. Holler with any news
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 01:10 AM
Thanks heaps for the help guys, going to get stuck into it tomorrow when I have a free day. I'll let you know what I find
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 01:53 AM
Quote:
First step would be a voltmeter on battery. 12.5 volts as it sits. Crank car. If it stays 12V or so, the starter isnt kicking in and dropping it down. Check for 12V on small terminal of starter. If 12V there and 12V on big terminal, starter is issue. If not 12V on small wire, relay or wiring is the issue. If it drops to like 10V or less, starter is getting voltage on both terminals, drawing power and trying to go. Still might be starter, or battery may just be weak.
Just did the first bit of this, battery off the charger holds just over 13v, then drops to 12.5 when I crank the first time. This then creeps back up on its own to around 12.6-12.7v, when I crank it drops to about 12.5, which suggests the starter isn't drawing power from it enough to crank it over?
Posted By: 72 RR DUDE
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 03:58 AM
Went thru the same kind of issue. The very last thing that I checked was the end of the neg battery cable that connect's to the intake or block. Mine looked ok but I turned the end so that the little teeth ground into the intake and it cranked like never before and this was after restoring the car.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 04:23 AM
OK, managed to get out and do a few more tests.
Battery seems fine as mentioned, so lets assume for now this is OK, holds charge well and recovers quickly once I've tried to crank the engine, which suggests its ok.
Checked power to terminals on the starter
Small terminal 0 volts when nothing is happening and around 11.5v when I turn the ignition key, so relay must be working OK.
Large terminal reads the same as the battery, about 12.5v and then drops slightly when I turn the key, down to say 12.2(ish)
The clicking is deffo the starter jumping out, I can see this from under the car with the dust plate off the bottom of the bell housing. I turned the engine over manually using the flywheel, so its not locked.
What I did notice though is the starter pops out (clicks) but doesn't engage the flywheel teeth, it pops out and then goes straight back in, which would suggest the solenoid is OK as well otherwise it wouldn't jump out at all, right?
I'll check connections etc now as well but these were all fine last time I started it and its not moved since, so can't imagine why they would be bad all of a sudden?
Any ideas?
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 04:58 AM
Quote:
Went thru the same kind of issue. The very last thing that I checked was the end of the neg battery cable that connect's to the intake or block. Mine looked ok but I turned the end so that the little teeth ground into the intake and it cranked like never before and this was after restoring the car.
Just been out and cleaned the end of the terminal where it joins to the engine block, all lovely bare metal now on all joining faces and still it just clicks 
Looking more and more likely I'll need to take out the starter I think, which is a pig because of the header being in the way...
Posted By: SCATPK
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 10:54 AM
It has to be either a bad battery, bad electrical connection or simply a bad starter/solenoid! Try another known good battery and remove and check all electrical connections. The fact that is has fired and ran just recently points to battery/connection issue! Good luck and I am sure you will figure it out.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/15/15 10:23 PM
Yeah its a funny one for sure. I wonder if my amps being connected to the battery are having an affect? I also have a capacitor running to one of the amps, which may be messing with the starting current? I'll try removing them from the equation first, then try my truck battery and hope it has enough juice.
The joys of classic car restoration
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 05:20 AM
Disconnecting the amps and capacitor made no difference.
Truck battery next, see if that works.
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 05:26 AM
fix the starter.
Posted By: rumblebee4232
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 06:24 PM
Have the battery load tested..
Posted By: dynorad
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 08:39 PM
There are two circuits involved here. One is a "low current" that goes through the ignition switch. The other is a high current that passes through the starter relay/solenoid. Have a helper test the voltage at the terminal from the ignition switch while you try to start. The most likely culprit is a low battery, followed by the switch or the bulkead connector. If that voltage is fine, have your helper test the battery voltage while you are cranking. If the battery voltage is fine, check the voltage on the terminals also while cranking. If good test the starter terminal while cranking. If the voltage is good at the starter terminal replace the starter or the starter solenoid. Also ensure that your ground from engine to battery is good and that you have the engine grounded properly to the body.
Posted By: p d'ro
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 09:08 PM
Quote:
There are two circuits involved here. One is a "low current" that goes through the ignition switch. The other is a high current that passes through the starter relay/solenoid. Have a helper test the voltage at the terminal from the ignition switch while you try to start. The most likely culprit is a low battery, followed by the switch or the bulkead connector. If that voltage is fine, have your helper test the battery voltage while you are cranking. If the battery voltage is fine, check the voltage on the terminals also while cranking. If good test the starter terminal while cranking. If the voltage is good at the starter terminal replace the starter or the starter solenoid. Also ensure that your ground from engine to battery is good and that you have the engine grounded properly to the body.
Can he jump the solenoid like I used to on my GM? Good old screwdriver touching terminals together?
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 09:39 PM
Jumping the terminals sounds exciting
I guess with the 12v going to the large terminal on the starter being constant and the smaller terminal being just in front, it would be easy to bridge the two with a screwdriver. This I guess bypasses the starter relay?
If you read up a bit, I did test the starter (both terminals) during ignition and the main 12v feed dropped slightly and the smaller one that has nothing going to it to start with got around 11.5v when the key is turned. This to me suggests the electrics are working ok, I've checked the grounds, I even installed a second battery to body ground and I might add another engine to body ground as well (can't have too many grounds...hehe).
I think the starter is at fault here, the fact that it jumps out but doesn't engage the flywheel wheel means its kinda working but just not energizing properly? The annoying thing is, I've had the car for over 3 years and its always cranked over, up until the back end of last year anyway. I had this problem once before where it just clicked but the next time I tried, it turned over. This time however, nothing and I've been trying and trying hoping it would just go. I plan to remove the starter this week, I will bench test then to see what happens.
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 10:31 PM
If the bendix is jumping out and the starter is not turning the contacts in the solenoid are not working.....time for a starter or new contacts....
Posted By: skicker
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 11:13 PM
If you have narrowed it down to the starter do yourself a favor and hit the starter a few times with a BFH. I've had them turn over and work for months after that. If it doesn't work oh well your going to swap it out anyway.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/16/15 11:21 PM
Quote:
If you have narrowed it down to the starter do yourself a favor and hit the starter a few times with a BFH. I've had them turn over and work for months after that. If it doesn't work oh well your going to swap it out anyway.
Yeah sadly I've tried the hitting it method from above and below, while my wife turned the key to try and help it but zip
I'll remove and check it out, the starter looks new so maybe its just because it's been sat not doing much for a few years while I restored it?
Posted By: dynorad
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/18/15 12:06 AM
What is the voltage between the big terminal on the starter and battery negative post while cranking?
Then check voltage from the big terminal to the engine block while cranking and let us know what the voltage is.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 04:10 AM
Missed that last comment and went and removed it from the car after a lot of swearing trying to get it round the exhaust header.
Anyway, bench test revealed it still doesn't work!!
It just clicks as it did on the car, kinda jumps out a bit but goes right back in, no spinning like it should.
The annoying thing is, the starter looks new, I stripped the solenoid to check the brushes and they look fine, all the inside looks OK. Is there anything in particular I should check on the inside of the starter or solenoid?
As previously mentioned the car was part restored when I got it, which probably explains the almost new looking starter but if this was an aftermarket replacement perhaps its not up to the standard of the original?
I tested by fixing the negative terminal on the battery to the body of the starter via a battery cable and then the positive from the battery going to both small and large terminals, all I get it click click and a few small arc sparks from the battery as I touch it on.
Clueless
Posted By: skicker
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 04:14 AM
Since you now know what the deal is I'd upgrade to the smaller starter and toss that one in the box for a core...
Should make reassembly a little easier...
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 04:16 AM
Open it up further. The solenoid ain't moving far enough for the large terminal to get continuity to the armature for the whole shebang to engage. Go further/you'll see what's fubared. EDIT If you're in a rush, what Skicker said, toss another one (reg or mini) in there & be up & running. plenty of parts over there?
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 05:01 AM
I'm not in a rush so much, I just don't like my engine sitting there without a start up once in a while. The car will be off the road for a more months yet while I finish up a few other jobs.
Parts aren't readily available sadly and usually have to be ordered from the US, which means waiting and waiting... I've been told by the shop over here I get my parts from that a new starter is $170 NZ, which I guess is about $130USD or so.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 05:03 AM
Out of interest I did completely take the solenoid apart and couldn't spot anything obvious? The large coil came out and looked OK, bearings etc all fine, the 4 plates on the outside of the body had a small amount of dust but were ok after a wipe clean.
I mean there isn't a lot to go wrong right, its just magnets?
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 06:18 AM
OK I've just had the entire thing apart and put back together. I tried a direct feed to the motor via the electrical mount that comes out of the solenoid, doing this results in the motor spinning up as it should but not jumping out because of the lack of solenoid.
As soon as I try through the main input that goes through the solenoid, I am back to clicking and no spinning...
All the parts in the solenoid look OK. There is a large copper washer that contacts between the two electrical feeds, so is the ignition feed (small connection) at fault?
Sorry guys, just wanting to make sure I've covered everything before committing to buying a new one.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 06:29 AM
haha, another twist in the tail
Turns out mine is already the mini hi torque type of starter, as seen here at my local supplier
http://www.musclecarparts.co.nz/high-torque-mini-starter-440-source
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 08:32 AM
quick movie showing what happens
Push solenoid down manually, motor spins up no probs. Join contacts of two terminals and the solenoid activates and pulls down the center tube, which connects the copper washer but the motor doesn't spin up?
Confused???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R0hkdkCa4k
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 08:51 AM
Cant see movie it's private it says
Your symptoms indicate no contact across the round copper washer and 2 contacts on either side.....Are the surfaces clean?
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 09:06 AM
Have changed the settings now on the movie
The copper contacts are all clean, the internals are very clean and new looking. If I press the washer down the motor spins up no probs, when the solenoid pulls it down, nothing happens??
Posted By: dan9
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 06:54 PM
Can you flip the copper washer over? Can you rotate the positions of the contacts that touch the washer? That used to fix a lot of GM starters.
Posted By: Wiggy
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 10:06 PM
Tried flipping the washer, I also tried cleaning the faces to make sure they were clean, then I tried giving them a slight rub with some fine wet and dry.
The thing I don't get is if I push the contacts down with my pliers, the motor spins up no probs but as soon as the solenoid pulls it down, nothing. I wonder if its something mechanically stopping it spinning once the solenoid is energized?
I am heading out to the garage again after breakfast to investigate further.
Posted By: HemiRick
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 02/20/15 10:51 PM
I would thinkit was being stopped it would buzz and get hot fast....I bet the solenoid is just not pulling hard/far enough to get good contact.
Posted By: Code3
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 11/24/15 07:39 AM
Did you figure it out yet? I'm in a similar situation. Same click. My starter tests fine, I replaced the relay and I've had the battery charged. Next is to replace the positive cables. It's so frustrating.
I started it once. Drove to the store and then got back in it to go home and then it just clicked. It's the worst sound on the planet.
Posted By: eagles
Re: Starting problems 71 Challenger - 12/17/15 03:08 AM
If its an automatic, check the netural safety switch on the transmission,it could be bad