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360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START

Posted By: KISSFANN1

360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 04:12 PM

Let me start by stating that I’m a good mechanic, but this is my first V-8 engine build.
Following the instructions from my Chilton’s manual, I have rebuilt a 360 engine in my 78 Power Wagon.
It will not start. It spit, sputters, and backfires.
I’m 99% sure I assemble the timing chain to the cam and crank with the #1 piston @ TDC.
The coil and ignition resistor checks out as OK.
I stuffed some tissue in the #1 spark plug hole. Once it popped out, the distributor rotor is pointing to the #1 spark plug wire on the cap.
I’m picking up today a compression gauge to check each cylinder.

What am I missing?
I would appreciate any suggestions that will help me through this struggle.

Thanks,

SLD
Posted By: dan9

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 04:21 PM

Maybe you need to turn the distributor 180 degrees. With the number one piston up it could be on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.
Posted By: gtsdude

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 04:22 PM

How did you install the timming chain? How did you install the oil pump drive gear?
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 04:41 PM

I have tried the 180 rotation of the distributor.
It did not help.
As for the chain installation, I can remember that the dots were lined up while the #1 cylinder was flush. The keyways on the cam and crank allowed the gears to go on. I did have a problem with lining up the oil pump shaft with the cam originally. I removed the intake and re-installed it to the manuals instructions. With the rotor pointing to the #1 plug wire, I assume that I have that shaft in the right location.
Make any sense?

SLD
Posted By: gtsdude

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 04:53 PM

Dot to dot on gears at 6 and 12 o'clock wih #1 on TDC puts #1 on intake stroke and #6 on compression stroke. So the oil pump drive gets pointed at #6 unless you rotate engine to get #1 up on compression stroke and then line it up to #1.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 05:44 PM

turn the crank to the (2) sweet spots (I'll see if I can find em) & preoil each head at each sweet spot. Then set the dampener timing marks on 15 BTDC. remove a valve cover & see if #1 or #6 valves (depending on which VC you pull) are open or closed. if you pull the dr cover & #1's rocker arms are closed then clock the intergear/dist so the rotor is forward & slightly to the pass side & plug in the #1 plug wire at that point. If the #1 cyls' rocker arms are open then clock the intergear/install dist so the rotor is pointing to the rear & slightly to the dr side & plug in the #6 plug wire at that point. have the vac can on the pass side with room to be turned either way and turn the housing till the magnet is dead even with the tooth and the rotor should be pointing at or close to the specific cap terminal & note that the can will shift the rotor (rotor phasing) CCW (on a SB) from the at rest/no vac/springs retracted position. Check the plug wire firing order (CW). No opinion on where there has been enough cranking to whether the intake should be removed & the cam regooped (cam failures are epidemic). read "breakin secrets" at www.mototuneusa.com make a mark on the dampener 2&1/4" CW from the TDC slit & have your helper set it to that when it fires (can plugged. Gun the eng repeatedly during the breakin. Any issues (leaks etc) shut it off immediately/fix it/restart/continue on. EDIT Do not do a compression test as that will further wipe the cam & there is no need for that test right now. MORE EDIT 90 deg BTDC #1 compression to oil pass head (your dampener may have 90 deg partial slits or cut a strip of paper 5.694" with your calipers to use as a ruler). 20 ATDC #6 compression (use the timing tab as a ruler to get the extra 5 deg) for drivers side oiling
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 06:07 PM

Sounds like your distrib is off or your t-chain is off. Have you turned the distrib while somebody cranks it yet?
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 06:23 PM

Or the ignition wires order is backwards on the cap.
Posted By: mopar_man

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 06:40 PM

Lots of good info here, but start from the basic stuff first. It may sound stupid but stupid stuff do happen .

Confirm you have fuel in the carb and its spraying.

If you only put #1 piston on TDC and then put the chain on(as you say you done) without aligning the marks, the cam could be anywhere. maybe you did align the marks but you never said . You have to confirm that your mechanical timing is correct before moving on to electrical timing.

If you confirm the cam/crank timing is ok, move on to the electrical timing by pulling #1 plug and bring to TDC on compression stroke , if dist is in correct , the rotor button should be pointing at #1 wire in the cap or there about. If not , you will have to mess with the dist till you get that fixed either by pulling the dist and moving the gear or changing the wires in the cap (not the right way).

If you can confirm that you have the dist fixed , then confirm that you have spark by grounding a plug on the engine and turn the engine over and see if the plug fires.

If the plug fires, you got compression, you got fuel , your cam/crank timing is correct , you electrical timing is right . the engine should start

please reply with your findings , it should take no longer than a 1/2 hr to check the above .

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 07:17 PM

Quote:

Or the ignition wires order is backwards on the cap.




Yes you NEVER use the #1 on the cap as "true".
Posted By: wally426ci

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 09:08 PM

Is the distributor turning? I had a nightmare when I built my stroker and it turns out I used a bolt that was too long in the water pump and it broke the cam gear.....
Posted By: skicker

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/29/14 10:19 PM

I would double check that you have juice when the engine is cranking. I had one that had juice in the run position but none in the crank position. Just about drove me nuts... If you think everything is correct turn the key on and cross the starter relay and see what happens...
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/30/14 02:03 AM

First thing I would do is put in brand new plugs, first. I know they were new, put new ones in again and try again.
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/30/14 03:08 PM

Thanks you everyone for your responses.
This is all good quality input.
I will be able to try some of these suggestions tomorrow.
I will update everyone on my findings.

Thanks,

SLD
Posted By: Dons Dart

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/30/14 03:58 PM

get right u dont want to wipe the cam .
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:39 PM

Hey All, here is an update:
When the balancer mark is on “0”, the valves on #1 cylinder are relaxed (closed).
The rotor is pointing to the #1 spark plug wire.
The #6 cylinder intake valve is open.
I believe the mechanical timing is set. Right????

I’m sending pics of my evaluation.

Any further input will be appreciated.

Thanks,

SLD

Attached picture 8379346-PIC1.jpg
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:41 PM

Next pic

Attached picture 8379352-PIC2.jpg
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:42 PM

#6 cylinder

Attached picture 8379354-PIC3.jpg
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:44 PM

This is how the gears were set.
Some has posted that the dots should be @ 12 o-clock on both gears.
I'm a little confused.

Attached picture 8379358-PIC4.jpg
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:52 PM

dot to dot like in the pix not both at 12 o'clock. Check all your vacuum lines. Make sure the intake is sealed. Can you pull a plug and see if you are getting fuel into the cylinders?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:55 PM

Yes the mechanical timing is highly likely OK (& if the #6 pushrods/rocker arms are at the same height (both open) that would for sure confirm this). I'm assuming firing order (CW) is correct/reluctor gap is correct. right now is the tooth near dead even with the magnet? Is the coil/ECU getting fire in ign2 (crank)? (pull the yellow wire off of the starter relay & have a helper turn the key to start & you check with your VOM or if you have a spare dist (from any cube eng) plug it in & spin it by hand & see if it makes the coil wire held 1/4" from ground spark with key in "run" and in "start"
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 06:56 PM

I am getting fuel to the cylinders.
As for the vacuum lines, I have not completely plugged them off.
The brake booster is open.
The EGR valve is connected to the carb.
Any others that I need to be concerned about?
Posted By: mopar_man

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 07:15 PM

Quote:

This is how the gears were set.
Some has posted that the dots should be @ 12 o-clock on both gears.
I'm a little confused.




Don't be confused , the engine can be timed in either position :

12 o'clock on crank .....12 on cam
6 on crank .......6 on cam
12 on crank .......6 on cam
6 crank .........12 on cam .The factory timed it so #1 is in front facing a little to the pass side . .

The crank , con rods or the piston at TDC don't know or don't care what stroke the engine is on. It's either the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke and its the cam that determines that. The cam turns at half speed of the crank and that's why you can have the marks 12/12 12/6, 6/12, 6/6 etc etc etc .. The problem arises when you have to get the electrical timing to match the mechanical timing , That's why you have to put the dist in one way and if its not in time you have to move it 180 degs . the dist in 1/1 ratio and turns the same speed as the cam.
So get #1 on the compression stroke at TDC , align the dist so the rotor is pointing at number one in the cap and if everything is else is ok ie: fuel , spark etc . the engine should fire. There are other things I can tell you but would only make it look difficult , do as I say and the engine will start .
Posted By: buildanother

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 07:41 PM

That #6 intake valve looks pretty far into it's lift for piston being at top dead center. Normally when piston (#1 and #6 same time) is at top, the two valves should be overlapping, meaning exhaust is still closing and intake is beginning to open. That's what's happening at #6 when #1 valves are completely closed and ready to fire.
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 12/31/14 08:12 PM

So, if that is the case, do you have a suggestion on what I need to do to fix that?

Thanks,

SLD
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/01/15 12:04 AM

With the dampener slit on zero (TDC) are the #6 rocker arms even (both open the same amt). This is a stock (symmmetrical) cam I'm assuming. If so the cam timing is Ok & we can move on to dist timing/fuel
Posted By: KISSFANN1

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/01/15 01:38 AM

Let me start by saying, thanks to everyone's help.
I decided to get back into the gear set to verify the dot lineup.
Guess what, I did not have the rotation set correctly.
There were so many marks on the crank gear, I used the wrong one.
I set everything to the way it was supposed to be.
Cranked it and had plenty of backfire.
Rotated the distributor 180 and it fired off immediately.
It sounded great!!!
Tomorrow it will button up the fluids and break in the cam.

I will keep you all updated on the build.

SLD
Posted By: JonC

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/01/15 01:49 AM

Don't know if it was said, but dot to dot is not TDC.
Posted By: stumpy

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/01/15 03:12 AM

dot to dot is tdc for #6 & #1. TDC just means the piston is all the way up.
Posted By: skicker

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/02/15 05:37 AM

Crank dot at 12:00 and cam dot at 12:00 is top dead center on the intake stroke. That is where you want to position the distributor at #1.
Aligning the two dots as indicated in the book is top dead center on the exhaust stroke which is 180* out with the distributor.
Posted By: buildanother

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/02/15 05:53 AM

Good thing he's got it running, because nobody lines up anything with crank dot at 6:00.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/02/15 05:55 AM

When crank dot is at 6 o'clock the #4 & #7 pistons are at TDC (maybe not exact enough TDC for cam degreeing but close enough for our dist timing we have in mind (but back on #1 or #6 tho). getting dot to dot at 6/12 is far easier than getting dot to dot at 12/12 cuz then (12/12) the crank snout is in the way of your steel scale. I get 6/12 & leave it there & time the intergear/dist to have #6 to the rear & slightly to the DR side. Want minimal cam turning
Posted By: skicker

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/02/15 06:52 AM

Quote:

Good thing he's got it running, because nobody lines up anything with crank dot at 6:00.




Fixed it...
Maybe residual effects from last night...
Posted By: mopar_man

Re: 360 ENGINE REBUILD WILL NOT START - 01/02/15 04:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Good thing he's got it running, because nobody lines up anything with crank dot at 6:00.




Fixed it...
Maybe residual effects from last night...





If your referring to my post , of course they don't why make it difficult . I just tried to (unconfuse)lol him by showing how mechanical timing works.
At least he got it running , and that's a good thing .
Happy New year BTW
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