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Performer RPM intake or not?

Posted By: feets

Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 07:28 PM

I've been tossing around the idea of sliding a Performer RPM intake on the Imperial. I found a cheap intake locally.

The car is my 72 Imperial with a stock 440. I will be adding my Edelbrock heads and a 261* .463" cam with a 114 LSA. It is topped with a 600 cfm AFB on a stock intake.

I want torque between 1500 and 2500 rpm and don't care about power above 4500 rpm.

The engine has the stock air cleaner on it. I'm not sure if it would clear the hood or if I would need a drop base air cleaner.

It would seem a bit out of place to drop a stock iron intake on top of a set of iron heads.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 07:38 PM

I ran this intake on my first and last 440.I still use it on my 440/493. The last 440 had '452 heads, a MP 284/484 cam and a Holley 750 and 1 7/8 headers. Lots of fun in that one. I've used that intake exclusively since 2002. It seals great and makes great power at all levels.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 07:44 PM

I'm tempted but don't know if it will clear the hood.
Posted By: Azzkikrcuda

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 07:45 PM

Not even a question with the mods you are doing, GET IT. You should be able to fit it with a drop base and shorter air filter.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 07:49 PM

It'll be kinda funny popping the hood on the faded old Imperial and seeing all that aluminum on the engine.


I was really tempted to go with the HP style exhaust manifolds but I don't want to get into messing with the exhaust pipes. Mine may be a bit too old to survive welding and I don't need to drop the coin on new exhaust.
Posted By: 70blackfish

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 08:07 PM

440's really like headers.....
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 08:33 PM

It should fit w/ a drop base. I had one on my old 67 coronet. Good intake. I ran a 488 summit cam. Seemed to like it. I also ran a CH4B and a 1/2" 4 hole spacer.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 08:46 PM

Quote:

440's really like headers.....



No.

I am not getting into the exhaust at this time.

If my devious little plot holds true I'd have to replace it all again anyway.

Besides, this car is meant to be QUIET while cruising. Headers are much louder than iron manifolds.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 09:01 PM

Quote:



The car is my 72 Imperial with a stock 440. I will be adding my Edelbrock heads and a 261* .463" cam with a 114 LSA. It is topped with a 600 cfm AFB on a stock intake.

I want torque between 1500 and 2500 rpm and don't care about power above 4500 rpm.





Certainly nothing wrong with trying it. But at this power level, it will likely have nothing over the CH4B.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:



The car is my 72 Imperial with a stock 440. I will be adding my Edelbrock heads and a 261* .463" cam with a 114 LSA. It is topped with a 600 cfm AFB on a stock intake.

I want torque between 1500 and 2500 rpm and don't care about power above 4500 rpm.





Certainly nothing wrong with trying it. But at this power level, it will likely have nothing over the CH4B.



I can't find a CH4B on the cheap. I'd stuff an old Performer on it if I had one.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 09:45 PM

Mine fits under the stock hood with a Summit drop base and a 4"element.
You might be able to see it with this picture.
Gus

Attached picture 8325463-greggspicofmycar.JPG
Posted By: rory73

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:07 PM

I went for a Weiand Action+ (8009) dual plane which is about the same size as the stock intake. Nice on a street car too. Since you've already got the RPM it won't hurt bolting it on.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:21 PM

Quote:

I went for a Weiand Action+ (8009) dual plane which is about the same size as the stock intake. Nice on a street car too. Since you've already got the RPM it won't hurt bolting it on.



I don't have the RPM intake.

Another concern is the transmission, throttle, and cruise control linkages. If I buy an intake I need to spend more money on that stuff.

Most annoying.

All I want is good torque from idle up through the cruising range.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:39 PM

Quote:

All I want is good torque from idle up through the cruising range.

OK so what ex is on there now, the low perf logs/restricted muffs/non mandrel bends? I know you said you dont want to mess with the ex but that's the most restricted part of the overall air pump (eng) plus I would mod the dist subsystems (last). EDIT I ain't a cam guy but make the right choice there especially for the low RPM torque you are after
Posted By: rory73

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:42 PM

You've probably seen these already but have a look here:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0712-mopar-intake-manifold-comparo/
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0207-intake-manifold-engine-and-rpm-range-test/

Of course it's only an indication and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Personally I like the 8009, it fits well and is an improvement over the stock design. Easily available s/h too. YMMV.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

All I want is good torque from idle up through the cruising range.

OK so what ex is on there now, the low perf logs/restricted muffs/non mandrel bends? I know you said you dont want to mess with the ex but that's the most restricted part of the overall air pump (eng) plus I would mod the dist subsystems (last). EDIT I ain't a cam guy but make the right choice there especially for the low RPM torque you are after




I'm not touching the exhaust.

Period.

End of sentence.


Why, you ask?

First, what is under the car now is a fairly nice 2-1/2" setup with nice bends, H-pipe, decent mufflers, and resonators to help quiet the sound.

Second, future mods would mean throwing it all away.

Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:51 PM

Quote:

You've probably seen these already but have a look here:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0712-mopar-intake-manifold-comparo/
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/mopp-0207-intake-manifold-engine-and-rpm-range-test/

Of course it's only an indication and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Personally I like the 8009, it fits well and is an improvement over the stock design. Easily available s/h too. YMMV.



I was actually reading those when you made that post.

I, too, like the 8009 and was just digging around online for one.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 10:52 PM

Quote:

I'm not touching the exhaust.
First, what is under the car now is a fairly nice 2-1/2" setup with nice bends, H-pipe, decent mufflers, and resonators to help quiet the sound.

Second, future mods would mean throwing it all away.

alright, that makes good sense to me
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/08/14 11:51 PM

My R+D buddy flowed a stock 440 spreadbore intake and came to the conclusion CFM wise that it wouldn't give up anything up to about 5500 rpm.

Whether there is a lot of runner velocity difference between the stock one and an RPM that might affect low and midrange power .

He figured there wasn't enough difference up to that engine speed between a stock one and any of the standard rise intakes ie Performer, C4B, Weiand 360 deg etc to bother changing one unless you wanted to save the weight difference.

Another respected builder in my area has found the same thing dyno testing the regular rise intakes. He told a buddy of mine "pile them all on the floor, there isn't 10 hp between the lot of them". Again this is with the standard rise type intake which an RPM clearly is not.

For your intended purpose I would paint those heads engine color, stick with the stock intake (plug the air injector and EGR if it has it) and spend the Performer RPM money on building and tuning a Thermoquad. 850 CFM when you need it and fuel mileage when you want it. Win win.

Kevin
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 12:17 AM

Thanks for the input.

I'd rather spend the money on an updated EFI system. I'd install what I have but that would be replacing the A/C compressor. I'm not into making new lines and all that stuff at this tine.
My system is currently charged with 84 ounces of R12 and I'd hate to see it get away. It blows colder than my 2012 Chrysler 200.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 12:40 AM

Quote:


He figured there wasn't enough difference up to that engine speed between a stock one and any of the standard rise intakes ie Performer, C4B, Weiand 360 deg etc to bother changing one unless you wanted to save the weight difference.

Another respected builder in my area has found the same thing dyno testing the regular rise intakes. He told a buddy of mine "pile them all on the floor, there isn't 10 hp between the lot of them".





Interesting. Personnel experience is that if you have a 350 -400 hp ish motor, there is pretty measurable difference between a stock intake and a CHB4 and a six pack, all shifting around the 5500 rpm range. Like 2-3 tenths and 2-3 mph.
Posted By: Colin Frolick

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 01:00 AM



Attached picture 8325628-8220666-16.JPG
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 01:31 AM

Which intake is that?
How much room between the air horn and the air cleaner lid? It doesn't do any good if the air can't get in the carb.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 01:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:


He figured there wasn't enough difference up to that engine speed between a stock one and any of the standard rise intakes ie Performer, C4B, Weiand 360 deg etc to bother changing one unless you wanted to save the weight difference.

Another respected builder in my area has found the same thing dyno testing the regular rise intakes. He told a buddy of mine "pile them all on the floor, there isn't 10 hp between the lot of them".





Interesting. Personnel experience is that if you have a 350 -400 hp ish motor, there is pretty measurable difference between a stock intake and a CHB4 and a six pack, all shifting around the 5500 rpm range. Like 2-3 tenths and 2-3 mph.



I think he was comparing stone stock cams and heads which are pretty much out of breath before 5500 anyway. If the engine can't take advantage of whatever advantage the "better" manifold offers because of this then the stock one doesn't look so bad in comparison.



Kevin
Posted By: Colin Frolick

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 02:12 AM

indy dual plane

that aircleaner is very drop base. 16 x 3" filter, yes it clears the carb. the top is right up under the hood.

http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-ALL26096-Diameter-Aluminum-Carburetor/dp/B006K8IBS4

Attached picture 8325688-8220665-itq.jpeg
Posted By: stinger

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 05:32 PM

IMO if your not gonna pull some rpm's then it's not worth the investment.when I swapped out a performer to a rpm I had to change air cleaner,throttle linkage and lengthen my tp rod and the whole set up still comes close to my rt hood.all in all I gained more top end but shift around 6k.
If you really want a regular old performer I have one in good shape wasting away in my attic.
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 06:02 PM

Quote:

IMO if your not gonna pull some rpm's then it's not worth the investment.when I swapped out a performer to a rpm I had to change air cleaner,throttle linkage and lengthen my tp rod and the whole set up still comes close to my rt hood.all in all I gained more top end but shift around 6k.



That's what I'm seeing.



Quote:

If you really want a regular old performer I have one in good shape wasting away in my attic.



Posted By: larrymopar360

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 08:45 PM

I was surprised and relieved when an air gap fit with the stock 4 barrel air cleaner on my '89 Diplomat with a 410 smallblock. I really wanted the look of the stock air cleaner but thought I'd have to use a drop base one. There isn't any room to spare, but it fit. Now you have a different car of course, but by the looks of the hood you have as much room as I did.

As far as linkages and all. Wouldn't you be able to reuse all the stock 4 barrel stuff?
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/09/14 09:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

440's really like headers.....



No.

I am not getting into the exhaust at this time.

If my devious little plot holds true I'd have to replace it all again anyway.

Besides, this car is meant to be QUIET while cruising. Headers are much louder than iron manifolds.



my :

You're only as strong as your weakest link....... If you're not willing to look at exhaust mods, I doubt you'd see a thing from an intake change. The two go hand in hand. You're also using a really small carb, and the manifold you have can probably outflow a 600 cfm carburetor at the RPM level you're looking at. So again, back to the weakest link point.
Posted By: bobby66

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/10/14 04:58 PM

Maybe look at the Holley Street Dominator? It would clear the hood for sure.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/10/14 07:57 PM

Kevin if you don't want to have to mess with the TV linkage then find a performer , you will have to screw with the linkage on anything taller than a CH4B .
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/10/14 08:29 PM

I bet your converter stalls around 2000RPM worrying about anything less than that is futile. In light of that I would grab the RPM and make it work. By 2500 that intake will be making more power than the stocker and losing 30# (up high to boot!) is not going to hurt that beast one bit.
Posted By: 440child

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/10/14 10:18 PM

Quote:

indy dual plane

that aircleaner is very drop base. 16 x 3" filter, yes it clears the carb. the top is right up under the hood.

http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-ALL26096-Diameter-Aluminum-Carburetor/dp/B006K8IBS4



Sorry for this hijack, but I just gotta know. Is that Indy a spreadbore manifold, or did you mod it to fit that carb? Thanks for enlightening me.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/10/14 11:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

indy dual plane

that aircleaner is very drop base. 16 x 3" filter, yes it clears the carb. the top is right up under the hood.

http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-ALL26096-Diameter-Aluminum-Carburetor/dp/B006K8IBS4



Sorry for this hijack, but I just gotta know. Is that Indy a spreadbore manifold, or did you mod it to fit that carb? Thanks for enlightening me.



The Indy is not a spreadbore and WHAT carb is under there , I see no mention of one ???

There is probably enough meat in the intake flange to make it fit a spread bore.

The intake is really designed to be put on a head with a max wedge port window, but it is delivered with a stock port window, the runner is max wedge size and doesn't really taper to stock port window so the flow isn't as good as it could be.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 12:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

indy dual plane

that aircleaner is very drop base. 16 x 3" filter, yes it clears the carb. the top is right up under the hood.

http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-ALL26096-Diameter-Aluminum-Carburetor/dp/B006K8IBS4



Sorry for this hijack, but I just gotta know. Is that Indy a spreadbore manifold, or did you mod it to fit that carb? Thanks for enlightening me.



The Indy is not a spreadbore and WHAT carb is under there , I see no mention of one ???

There is probably enough meat in the intake flange to make it fit a spread bore.

The intake is really designed to be put on a head with a max wedge port window, but it is delivered with a stock port window, the runner is max wedge size and doesn't really taper to stock port window so the flow isn't as good as it could be.



That is a thermoquad in the pic. Did you think the carb was the air cleaner?
Posted By: BSB67

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 01:55 AM


My 3.23, 1900 rpm stall speed car spends 90% of its drive time at or below 2100 rpm. Most everything other than free way driving is below that rpm. It cruises through neighborhoods at about 1100 rpm. I would say that most of the light throttle, loaded acceleration is usually in the 1500 to 2000 rpm range, getting the car back to 45 mph, pulling up a hill or accelerating out of a turn.

Don't lose focus on what your goal is, and how the car is really used/driven.
Posted By: Colin Frolick

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 08:07 AM

My '71 came with an AVS but I wanted to run the Thermoquad. I made the stock throttle/trans linkage work with the tq on a performer and then this Indy manifold. I had to hack on it some to make it go around the bigger runners on the Indy but it works. Also yes I opened up the carb pad for a spreadbore.

Attached picture 8327869-image.jpg
Posted By: Vert

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 03:58 PM

Feets,
I went to the garage, cleared stuff off a 440 (with E heads) and measured from the valley pan (rear side) to the top of the carb pad on a Performer RPM. 6 3/8 inches using this square.

You should do the same on yours. Subtract yours from my 6 3/8 to get your expected height increase.

Make some pencil-diameter spikes of modeling clay about 2 inches long. Stick them on your current aircleaner front/rear/left/right. Close the hood gently, open the hood gently, measure the spikes to see your current clearance. Obviously hope for a number greater than the height difference.

Funny how I can do this, and yet not keep my car on the road.

Attached picture 8327969-8640045-11.jpg
Posted By: feets

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 05:34 PM

Quote:

Close the hood gently, open the hood gently, measure the spikes to see your current clearance.




My hood is about 75 feet from the car. Otherwise, I'd have dumped a blob of Play-Doh on the filter housing and closed the hood.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 05:44 PM

Quote:


That is a thermoquad in the pic. Did you think the carb was the air cleaner?



Dave , there are only 2 pictures of engines that I see in this thread , one is the hotrod with a homemade fuel injection , the other is this ...

edit ... the picture of the engine showing the carb did not autoload for me, after looking at the thread again to make sure I wasn't crazy I noticed the attachment that Colin added that did not load, and there is the engine shot with showing the carb, maybe it autoloaded for you, and others, but it didn't for me running 2 different versions of firefox on 2 different computers

I don't know, it looks like an AIR CLEANER to me ????

Attached picture 8328041-aircleaner.JPG
Posted By: Vert

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 05:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Close the hood gently, open the hood gently, measure the spikes to see your current clearance.




My hood is about 75 feet from the car. Otherwise, I'd have dumped a blob of Play-Doh on the filter housing and closed the hood.



You may want to implement the rare "Imperial Shaker Hood" option.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Performer RPM intake or not? - 11/11/14 10:10 PM

I use google chrome, maybe that was the difference

I figured there must be some logical explanation
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