Moparts
440 rebuild
Posted By: KingTuna
440 rebuild - 09/08/14 07:36 PM
I have a 440 out of a 73 New Yorker on the engine stand. Motor looks to be in good shape but needs a rebuild. I have a few questions for you guys in regards to how to rebuild this bad boy. It will be going into the 66 fury, hooked up to the 727 that was in the New Yorker. I will be putting 3.23s in the rear end down the road, but for now it will have the 2.94s. I am looking to make ample amounts of torque to get this big boat moving down the road fairly quickly. Here is the combo I am thinking about.
stealth heads from 440source
lunati voodoo 60302
stock cast crank
stock rockers and shaft
stock distributor
rebuild kit from Summit Racing, not sure yet on compression ratio
Would the stock intake and rebuilt thermoquad work well with this setup, or should I go ahead and spend the cash to get the Edelbrock RPM and 750-800 cfm carb.
What would be a good compression ratio to run in this motor? Any suggestions to the combo would be greatly appreciated. This will be my first rebuild. I have a close friend that builds chevy engines frequently that will be helping me assemble.
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/08/14 07:39 PM
Also forgot to ask, would exhaust manifolds work ok with this set up or would heads be needed? If have to use headers, I will use shorties as long tubes in a c body are a royal pain from what I have heard.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/08/14 07:45 PM
The stealth heads are overkill, but good for upgrades down the road. just order all Summit stuff and roll. T-Chain, re-built kit (hope you don't need a bore, if so get higher compression pistons), the Summit 465-488 cam works good (AMHIK), Used dual palne intake, Holley 750 and headers.. Should pull just fine. Use as many used items as you can(except engine internals) and it should be a cheap build.
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/08/14 09:09 PM
I thought about just keeping the stocks heads on there. They are 346's. If I'm not mistaken, they have the semi-hardened valve seats correct? The motor has 170,000 miles on it, so I'm inclined to think it would be a good idea to rebuild them while they were off.
We finished my 440 build in February for my Barracuda and my entire build was determined by how I want to drive it. I went with a fairly mild build and it still dyno'd at 390 HP. I can link the YouTube recording so you can see the curve.
I went with stock heads, but my engine shop opened them up using the Mopar porting templates and we backcut the valves. These two things really let this stock 440 breathe. Since we went with hardened guides and a roughly 9:1 compression, the car will take mid-grade unleaded but I usually use super unleaded.
My Compcam has similar specs to that Voodoo. Mine has a 218 intake and 224 exhaust duration @ .050 and lobe separation of 110 and a lift of .462/.470. This is a fairly tame spec, but I can bump the ignition and crank it and drive immediately and it is a snap to tune. It has a good deep sound but not that heavy lumbering idle like a more aggressive cam will provide.
I also went with an aluminum Edelbrock Performer intake manifold for a little better breathing and some weight reduction. It painted up nicely and looks stock. For exhaust, I used the factory HP exhaust manifolds as they flow very nicely and they are stout enough to hold up the header pipes.
Be sure to hold off on getting your pistons until you know the final bore size. As for carb, I tried an Edelbrock 750 but the engine is FAR happier with the Edelbrock 1413 800 CFM.
Posted By: BSB67
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 01:01 AM
I think everything you listed is fine. In fact, I kinda like it. You don't need headers. Have someone go through the Stealths. Cam is fine. TQ and factory intake is a good choice, but getting the TQ right might be a challenge. Buy the piston in your budget with a 2.06" compression height and you'll be good on CR. If your rockers are okay keep them, but this is a place that I like to upgrade.
Posted By: gch
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 01:09 AM
I would like to see 9.5-1 with the aluminum heads and that voodoo cam.
A used edelbrock performer intake is cheap enough but the 73 intake is fine.I like the thermoquad carbs so long as they are right.
Stock rockers are fine but a new replacement set would be in order.
Get a ready to run distributor from Firecore.It has a much better advance curve and easier to hook up vs. converting the 73 to electronic ignition.
Manifolds are fine but the hedman shorties with a small starter is a good upgrade.
Should be a strong runner with gobs of torque.You might even keep the 2.94's with all the torque.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 02:22 AM
Good cam choice. Don't go bigger.
Use the aluminum heads. They won't cost you much more than redoing the 346s.
I hate the heavy stock 440 pistons, but if you are buying a kit try to get the Six Pack pistons, L2355F or something like that. They have a compression distance of 2.05, that will help build compression.
DO look at the KB pistons, they have a couple of nice slugs. Everything else you mention is good, if you can afford the Perf RPM that's the one, if not then the CH4B is miles ahead of a Performer, and shouldn't cost an arm and leg. The stock cast iron intake and T-Quad can work too. Put your upfront money INSIDE the engine, intake manifolds and carbs can be upgraded later.
At $165 the Firecore distributor is an easy choice.
Find a pair of HP exhaust manifolds and go 2 1/2" back with an H-pipe and my favorite Dynomax Super Turbos, the 17748 or 17749.
Why H-pipe? It's less expensive and gets the job done. Nothing wrong with the X, but one can fabricate and install an H in a short time.
I'd keep the 2.94s, it'll be a great cruiser, and FAST on the highway.
R.
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 02:48 AM
With 170k it will need a bore. I hate to bump up the budget but with new pistons, a crank grind (most likely needed), tork convertor for a cast crank etc. you will be more than halfway to a drop in stroker kit for $2k and that would give you lots of lowend grunt for that C-body. Just something to think about. The other stuff looks good.
Sheldon
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 03:29 PM
Thank yall for all the input. I'm going to talk to the machine shop sometime this week and see how much they would charge to redo the heads. A friend of mine had a set of 351 modified heads rebuilt by him about a year ago and he charged $500 to rebuild the set. That included putting hardened seats in, but I don't think he had any port work done. I would love to go the stroker route, but 2300 bucks is almost what I hope to build the motor for. I am hoping to keep everything down to around 3000$, or as close as possible. I definitely agree with putting what money I have into the internals. Will look into a set of HP manifolds as well. The New Yorker already had electric ignition on it. Mopar orange box. Definitely will check out that distributor though as I always hear bad things about the orange box.
Dooh, almost forgot. I would consider a Blaster II coil. You can peel off the sticker and paint it black and it looks stock.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 06:07 PM
If you already have an ignition system use it and put the $$$ towards heads. "I have heard" are the three most dangerous words.
The Firecore needs a box just like your present distributor. I am using an MSD6 that I bought on the 'bay for less than $50, it's worked for five years now. But unless your orange box isn't making spark it'll work for the time being. Now, if you're looking for the last tenth, that's a different story. But it seems you're not.
The $500 valve job is exactly what I'm talking about. By the time you spend $500 for valve work, plus $2-300 for "porting" which for that amount is nothing more than a little cleanup, you're right next to a pair of Stealth heads.
Better find out what's inside the engine before you do anything else. 170K is a lot of miles for a 1960s engine.
R.
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/09/14 08:22 PM
The New Yorker has the 5 digit speedometer, and it is at 70,000 right now. Car was not parked until 2004, so I'm just going worst case scenario and thinking its more like 170,000. With the valve covers off though, there is nothing that I have seen that scares me. When I take off one the heads it might be a different story though. Good thing is that the motor is free. A little Marvels and a few days wait and she turned right over. I agree with you on the aluminum heads. I believe that is the best way to go. The combustion chambers on the Stealths are also much better than the stock heads as well, correct? I added up the just the major parts alone and right now I am looking at 2,700 dollars. This is the rebuild kit, edelbrock intake, holley 750, stealth heads, voodoo cam & lifters, double roller timing chain, rocker shafts, rocker arms, pushrods. I'm gonna be very happy when this is done but very broke...
Posted By: gch
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 01:19 AM
I would not recommend the 750 holley on a heavy c body with highway gears.It will run just fine but gives up low end with the larger throttle bore.Did that years ago on a stock 440 in 68 Chrysler 300 with 2.76 gears and it became a turd off the line.Just my opinion.
I might opt for an AVS carb or the eddie 800 afb if I were going squarebore.Check for hood clearance with the rpm intake.It is the best intake but tall.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 01:24 AM
There is very little functional difference between a 750 vacuum secondary Holley and an 800cfm Edelbrock Thunder Series (AVS) carb.
Saying one will work and one won't on a C-body is just wrong.
R.
DO NOT get the Edelbrock 750 with that block and that cam. The Holley 750 is probably fine and the Eddy 800 is great.
If you have a Eddy 750, we can make it work but if you are buying a carb, I would stay away from the 1411. There are plenty of other carbs that are less likely to give you problems.
Posted By: d-150
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 03:14 AM
i just bought the 800 avs eddy for my 452. i like
Posted By: gch
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 03:48 AM
Quote:
There is very little functional difference between a 750 vacuum secondary Holley and an 800cfm Edelbrock Thunder Series (AVS) carb.
Saying one will work and one won't on a C-body is just wrong.
R.
If you read my post it says "it will run fine".I was merely stating my experience from the stock carb to a 750 holley on a stock 440 with highway gears.I noticed a huge loss in low end.Granted the stock carb was smaller cfm wise and therefore more responsive.
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 05:01 PM
I was looking at the Holley 4160 for my carb choice. The stock thermoquad is a 800 or so correct?
Posted By: BlueGhost
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 06:01 PM
Another option might be stock type pistons and Edelbrock 72cc E-Street heads.
You would get similar compression to stealth heads and flat top pistons, but take advantage of a more modern combustion chamber.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 06:11 PM
What you gain in combustion chamber shape you'd lose with not having squish. Doesn't matter much what the chamber looks like when the piston is 0.100" down in the hole.
R.
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 07:42 PM
Quick question. Lets hypothetically say that I decide to stay with stock cast iron heads. How much would it affect performance if I didn't port them? Would simply installing biggers valves help with a nice combustion chamber polish? How well do the stock heads flow up to .500 lift? I'm just trying to look at all angles because right now I will be over budget. I still have to swap the spindles and disc brakes from the New Yorker to the Fury, and rebuild the trans.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/10/14 07:47 PM
Quote:
The New Yorker has the 5 digit speedometer, and it is at 70,000 right now. Car was not parked until 2004, so I'm just going worst case scenario and thinking its more like 170,000. With the valve covers off though, there is nothing that I have seen that scares me. When I take off one the heads it might be a different story though. Good thing is that the motor is free. A little Marvels and a few days wait and she turned right over. I agree with you on the aluminum heads. I believe that is the best way to go. The combustion chambers on the Stealths are also much better than the stock heads as well, correct? I added up the just the major parts alone and right now I am looking at 2,700 dollars. This is the rebuild kit, edelbrock intake, holley 750, stealth heads, voodoo cam & lifters, double roller timing chain, rocker shafts, rocker arms, pushrods. I'm gonna be very happy when this is done but very broke...
for $2700 you can find a mill already built with better parts. I suggest you look at as many used parts as you can. The only thing new I'd spend money on new is a cam and t-chain set along w/ bearings. You can even find good deals on used .030 pistons. Just my $.02 I bought the engine in this car for $3k of of a moparts member.
In regard to the heads, there is an excellent writeup on the gains for porting and back-cuts on the valves.
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/5115_cylinder_heads/This article tells you all you need to know about the steel heads. You can compare these numbers against the published numbers for the Eddy and Indys.
If I remember correctly, the back-cuts on the valves will give you more gains than the Mopar porting templates. I did both on mine and I don't think my engine shop charged me more than a couple-hundred for the extra work.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/11/14 01:37 AM
The problem is that the bigblock heads don't flow any more than the better smallblock heads. Backcutting the valves with no other changes won't do much. Heck, the MP templates don't do that much, still won't get an iron head within the aluminum head out of the box.
Find Steve Dulcich's three-part article on porting B/RB heads. The link in the last post is the first of the three parts in Dulcich's bigblock head trilogy.
Be sure to also find and read Fast68's writeup on porting 906s, which is in the Tech archives.
Bottom line for me is that the 40+-year-old iron (they were never steel) heads flow poorly and have a lousy combustion chamber, except for the 915s. Any of them will cost more to port and rebuild than a Stealth or other entry level aluminum head. After they are ported, the iron heads have been known to crack and then all that money is up in smoke. Don't do it.
R.
Posted By: Dan Halen
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/11/14 04:18 AM
Quote:
Quick question. Lets hypothetically say that I decide to stay with stock cast iron heads. How much would it affect performance if I didn't port them? Would simply installing biggers valves help with a nice combustion chamber polish? How well do the stock heads flow up to .500 lift?
Actually, as told to me by a few reputable Super Stock guys, the only reason to install larger valves in a production head, would be to fix a worn out seat. The 2.08 valves generate better velocity since the ports are so poor to begin with. Stock heads flow in the low 200s, they're good truck heads. 
Posted By: KingTuna
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/11/14 03:19 PM
Got ya, now I understand a little better. Well, I guess it's time to start seeing if I can liquidate a few other playtoys to help fund. I wouldnt mind find a used engine for a good price, but as I have never built one myself I would really like to. Stealth heads it is! Quick question about them. I have seen some say you can run them straight out of the box, and I have seen others say to have a machine shop check them and ensure everything has the proper clearances, etc. Any opinions?
Posted By: Dan Halen
Re: 440 rebuild - 09/11/14 08:16 PM
Have them looked at, not just Stealths. Any head you'd use on a fresh build should be inspected to avoid the 'surprise' after you've gone through the hassle of installing your engine.