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Had someone combing through my Engine compartment

Posted By: SPWC

Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 05:29 PM

Took my Dart out to our weekly cruise night for the first time.

Had a Chevy guy going over some stuff in the engine compartment and making comments,I would like to know everyones take on the comments.

We are emissions exempt here and the engine is a 1977 225 in a 72 Dart.

I have the EGR port at the manifold plugged and the EGR valve reversed,thus blocking it off. This guy told me I should run the EGR as it would make the engine perform better.


Then he noticed the steel line coming up from under the firewall that usesd to run to the Charcoal canister,which I took off and threw away.

He says I should put it back on so the car will run better with it.


Like I said we are emissions exempt,so I took all uneccessary components and tossed them.

What do you all think of this Chevy Guys comments?Is he right or should I not even bother with the emissions stuff I took off?
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 05:32 PM

My guess is that his definition of "run better" and yours are diametrically opposed.

Did he have tree marks all over his body from too much embracing?
Posted By: goldduster318

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 05:40 PM

Your car is a 1972 and therefore does not have to have any of the equipment since you're not in California. Your engine will make more power and have better driveablity without the EGR and charcoal canister.
Posted By: 05dakota

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 05:52 PM

its still illegal to remove emissions controls.
Posted By: SPWC

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 06:07 PM

Quote:

its still illegal to remove emissions controls



Even if the engine thats equipped with emissions is installed in a Bodystyle and year of a vehicle that wasnt?

For example taking a 1978 Smog 318 and installing it in a 67 Satelitte?
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 07:07 PM

Quote:

its still illegal to remove emissions controls.



And it's illigal to remove the tags from your mattress.

Chevy guy was most likely a dealer tech that knows little more than what he was taught by Chevy for newer cars.
Posted By: stumpy

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 07:08 PM

Smog stuff goes by body year not engine. If you put an older non smog engine in a later smog car you need to install smog equipment. If you go the other way you can remove the smog stuff.
Posted By: CHRGR69

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 07:17 PM

And it's illegal to remove the tags from your mattress.


It is??? Oh S---!
Posted By: Junky

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 07:58 PM

Quote:

My guess is that his definition of "run better" and yours are diametrically opposed.

Did he have tree marks all over his body from too much embracing?


That is priceless! Couldn't of said it better.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 09:10 PM

Quote:

which I took off and threw away. What do you all think of this Chevy Guys comments?

Throw the chebby guy out of your garage, problem solved
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 09:15 PM

Tell the Chivie guy to go pound sand!!!!
Posted By: cdp

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 09:19 PM

Or, buy the GM's guys correct emissions vehicle and give your Mopar away. You saved the enviroment and made the GM guy happy.

Our goal in life is to make everyone else happy...right?
Posted By: moparmojo

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 10:59 PM

Well I know I'll get blasted for this, but I saw a program a while back where they were discussing just this issue, whether to dump the emmissions stuff. The guy on the show was real informative and gave numerous straight forward reasons why it was better to leave it on. I honestly cant remember any of them, I just recall turning off the program thinking my opinion had changed as I thought that dumping it was a no brainer beforehand. Maybe some more knowledgable experts here can sort of discuss this more specifically.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 11:06 PM

Quote:

Well I know I'll get blasted for this, but I saw a program a while back where they were discussing just this issue, whether to dump the emmissions stuff. The guy on the show was real informative and gave numerous straight forward reasons why it was better to leave it on. I honestly cant remember any of them, I just recall turning off the program thinking my opinion had changed as I thought that dumping it was a no brainer beforehand. Maybe some more knowledgable experts here can sort of discuss this more specifically.



Consider this your first blast.... carefully take the hook out of your cheek.

just messin wicha'
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 11:07 PM

Some emissions equipment does not have a downside other than cluttering up the bay. Things like
The charcoal canister, Air aspirator tubes/valves, and PCVs.

Others rob power like smog pumps

Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves, Catalytic converters.

The above is only some of the old school stuff, on a 'modern car' (like anything post
85 ) the paraphenalia can be mindboggling and removing it difficult.
Posted By: RTDaddy

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/03/09 11:11 PM

The only way anyone is going to make comments like that about my stuff is if they have cash in hand and are buying. Otherwise, take a hike.

"IF YOU'RE UNDER CONTROL, YOU AIN'T GOING FAST ENOUGH."
Posted By: 70dart360

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 12:29 AM

Quote:

Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves



I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.
Posted By: 440newport

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 12:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves



I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.



If EGR's made power wouldn't most guys run one? It actually does the opposite, hot exhaust gas entering the intake heats up the incoming charge and basically pollutes the mixture. Even most oem egr setups shut off the egr at wot/under high load because it robs power or at least can cause pinging/detonation.
Posted By: Hrtbkr

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 12:40 AM

I see Chevy guy's lips move, but I've trained myself not to hear
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 12:56 AM

Quote:

Took my Dart out to our weekly cruise night for the first time.

Had a Chevy guy going over some stuff in the engine compartment and making comments,I would like to know everyones take on the comments.





Mustve been Al Gore checking your care out. Funny I thought he drove a Hyundai.

Just remove the rest of the evidence of the charcoal canister and get a EGR block off plate.
Then tell the Chevy guy that the car ran worse when you put those parts back on, and you found out it wasnt supposed to have them because its a 1972.
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 12:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Took my Dart out to our weekly cruise night for the first time.

Had a Chevy guy going over some stuff in the engine compartment and making comments,I would like to know everyones take on the comments.





Mustve been Al Gore checking your care out. Funny I thought he drove a Hyundai.

Just remove the rest of the evidence of the charcoal canister and get a EGR block off plate.
Then tell the Chevy guy that the car ran worse when you put those parts back on, and you found out it wasnt supposed to have them because its a 1972.



WOW, you mean AL GORE gets through the Moparts filters? Must be the new president....
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 01:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Took my Dart out to our weekly cruise night for the first time.

Had a Chevy guy going over some stuff in the engine compartment and making comments,I would like to know everyones take on the comments.





Mustve been Al Gore checking your care out. Funny I thought he drove a Hyundai.

Just remove the rest of the evidence of the charcoal canister and get a EGR block off plate.
Then tell the Chevy guy that the car ran worse when you put those parts back on, and you found out it wasnt supposed to have them because its a 1972.



WOW, you mean AL GORE gets through the Moparts filters? Must be the new president....



In before the lock!
Posted By: NTOLERANCE

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 01:02 AM

Quote:



In before the lock!



OH come on, its all tongue in cheek!
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 01:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves



I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.



EGR cools down the combustion chamber temps, thereby lowering nox output. This has the same effect as lowering the compression ratio, ie cooler combustion chamber temps. Cooler combustion chamber temps = less power/efficiency, plain and simple.
Posted By: 474218

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 02:34 AM

At least he didn't tell you to paint your engine compartment black!
Posted By: 6packattk

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 03:38 AM

Within a couple years of new back in 70,s would unhook and throw away cause nothing was known about politically correctness or tree hugging,Ralph Naderized stuff didn`t make things perform better.We used to get exhaust test tubes to ditch the over priced restiction known as a catalytic converter.Car would get better gas mileage and run better which is all i cared about.You can see that all the rules and regs have helped the american car companies sooo much(bankrupted them).I too have selective hearing from the chevy crowd,used to argue all the time over whats right,I tell them now to get back in there and watch low rider..........
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:18 AM


Depending on your local laws, and in any state that has adopted CA emissions regulations, you'd be in violation of the law.

In an engine replacement, ie 72 225 for a 78 225, the emissions neccesary to be legal depends on either the date of manufacture for the body or the engine, whichever is later. So a 77 225 in a 72 Dart would be required to meet 77 emissions requirements, however, you cannot run a 72 225 in a 77 vehicle, engine has to be at leas teh same year or newer than the body. The ONLY exception is catalytic converters which are solely body dependant, fire hazard in a body not originally designed for it.

If your state doesn't run CA emissions, which is most, you will have to find out what the law states.

As for "emissions exempt" that means you are exempt from testing, only. Federal law, at the minimum, requires you to keep an maintain the stock emissions equipment. I do not, however, know what the feds require when doing an engine replacement, at the minimum I would guess whatever the emissions you original setup had.

As for an engine swap, ie a 440 in place of a 225, then it has to meet the requirements for the year of the body it's being swapped into or the year of the engine, it also has to be a pass car engine, if it's swapped into a pass car, and it has to be an available option in a pass car for that year. So no, 426's in a 73 Newport.

You can swap a 360 in place of a 318 as it's considered a replacement, not a swap. But it still has to meet the year criteria and have the appropriate emissions retained.

As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.

as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 05:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Others prevent max power from being produced like EGR valves



I call BS on that one, an EGR cools cylinder temp therefore making an engine run more cleaner and more efficient. Producing more power. As far as a charcoal cannister and the smog pump, they pull an engine down. Ditch them if ya can.



EGR cools down the combustion chamber temps, thereby lowering nox output. This has the same effect as lowering the compression ratio, ie cooler combustion chamber temps. Cooler combustion chamber temps = less power/efficiency, plain and simple.



Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!!
There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.
Posted By: volaredon

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 06:06 AM

Quote:


Depending on your local laws, and in any state that has adopted CA emissions regulations, you'd be in violation of the law.

In an engine replacement, ie 72 225 for a 78 225, the emissions neccesary to be legal depends on either the date of manufacture for the body or the engine, whichever is later. So a 77 225 in a 72 Dart would be required to meet 77 emissions requirements, however, you cannot run a 72 225 in a 77 vehicle, engine has to be at leas teh same year or newer than the body. The ONLY exception is catalytic converters which are solely body dependant, fire hazard in a body not originally designed for it.

If your state doesn't run CA emissions, which is most, you will have to find out what the law states.

As for "emissions exempt" that means you are exempt from testing, only. Federal law, at the minimum, requires you to keep an maintain the stock emissions equipment. I do not, however, know what the feds require when doing an engine replacement, at the minimum I would guess whatever the emissions you original setup had.

As for an engine swap, ie a 440 in place of a 225, then it has to meet the requirements for the year of the body it's being swapped into or the year of the engine, it also has to be a pass car engine, if it's swapped into a pass car, and it has to be an available option in a pass car for that year. So no, 426's in a 73 Newport.

You can swap a 360 in place of a 318 as it's considered a replacement, not a swap. But it still has to meet the year criteria and have the appropriate emissions retained.

As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.

as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.



So then, how do people get away with big block swaps into post-'79 trucks? You can't tell me that nobody in Cali has ever done one of these type swaps! Also, I remember hearing the blather about that engine had to be an option in that body style, that year; though that may be what the rule book says.
Another thing; Ever look in an engine catalog (ie; Jasper, etc) they often group several years' of a given engine application; how can the "same year or newer" thing fly, if, for example, they group a 77-79 318 together, your car's a 79 and your reman was an engine originally built in '77?
Further; "pass car" block vs "truck" block (depending which you are swapping into) You mean to tell me, that a 318 long block of a given year is really any different for a car, vs a truck of that given year? (OK; maybe the truck has exhaust valve rotators; big deal) but casting number wise, I have a 78 Fury and an 83 D 250; both 318s both have the same casting # on the heads; neither has ever been apart since Mopar built them.
Internal parts; the same set of pistons is catalogged to fit more years than would a short/long block, as I described above; how would the SAME piston act any different, in a '78 block than it would in an 89 block? the piston don't car what year block it's in! Yet the catalog shows that range for that application.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 06:42 AM

Quote:


As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.

as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.



Show me one 70's mopar that's running SOOOOO much compression that it needs EGR to keep ping under control. You won't find one because by the time EGR came into effect, compression ratios were non-existant anyway.

Quote:


Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!!
There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.



Why would you bump up ignition timing while running EGR? All that's going to do is bring comb temps back up. EGR brings em down, extra timing brings them back up. Give here, take there, net result is no change. I don't for a second believe that at a given compression ratio that you will see real-world MPG increases by running EGR with extra ignition timing versus just running no EGR and getting a cleaner burn with a little less timing. EGR does not affect full throttle performance because the OEM knew well enough to turn the EGR off once you nailed the throttle.
Posted By: camdog440

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 03:46 PM

Quote:

Smog stuff goes by body year not engine. If you put an older non smog engine in a later smog car you need to install smog equipment. If you go the other way you can remove the smog stuff.



Not necessarily. I had a '73 Cuda with a '72 340 in it and then moved to Cali. I had to take the car to a referee station to have it smogged the first time. They classified my car as a '72 for smog purposes and then told me to take off my econo 650 Holley... and put on a big 750 Double Pumper . I also had to put all of the factory smog controls back as if it was a '72 model... I put it all back but it wasn't functional thanks to some broken off golf tees in the vacuum lines.

A guy came in to the referee station with a hot rodded Camaro... a car originally from California... he was told to put it ALL back stock. The guy had the look on his face like his dog just died.
Posted By: GoDartGo

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:04 PM

DAMHIK, But I think you can suck the charcoal out of the canister if hooked up wrong after /6 surgery and put on a big sparkler show at night........
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:


As for removing emmisions equipment to make it run better, wrong. Most have no net effect on power, some have a benefit if you use it. Granted, back in the day cats were restrictive, but they no longer are. Egr keeps ping under control allowing more dynamic compression for more power.

as for the argument of why "guys" don't run EGR if it makes more power, heck look at this thread and you'll see the answer, lack of knowlege about what it does and how to take advantage of it.



Show me one 70's mopar that's running SOOOOO much compression that it needs EGR to keep ping under control. You won't find one because by the time EGR came into effect, compression ratios were non-existant anyway.

Quote:


Ahh.....EGR does lower comb. temps which do indeed lower NOX emissions. However it also allows one to add more timing before spark knock(ping) occurs,which is a major contributor to Nox emissions! More spark lead more power,better fuel economy!!!Plain and simple!!
There is a lot of misconception around EGR systems,I see it on forums all the time.Just like I see about PCV systems!! I'm not saying it is needed,but a properly functioning system will not hurt engine performance! By the way, I'm an ASE certified tech(including L1,advanced drivability)and an Auto Instructor at a tech college.



Why would you bump up ignition timing while running EGR? All that's going to do is bring comb temps back up. EGR brings em down, extra timing brings them back up. Give here, take there, net result is no change. I don't for a second believe that at a given compression ratio that you will see real-world MPG increases by running EGR with extra ignition timing versus just running no EGR and getting a cleaner burn with a little less timing. EGR does not affect full throttle performance because the OEM knew well enough to turn the EGR off once you nailed the throttle.



You do understand with early(vac)EGR the reason they were inop at WOT was because of lack of vac. at WOT! You also understand with early timing controls(vac advance) that timing also retards at WOT for the very same reason ,right?
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:42 PM

These EGR posts are great. The answer can be found at any car show, cruise in, or drag strip....after all EVERYBODY runs an EGR system for more performance

I think my engine is getting too much oxygen and fuel mixture in the cylinders...gotta reduce that somehow....
Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:50 PM

EGR is only supposed to work at steady cruising speeds. Idle and wide open it doesn't work. So technically you shouldn't 'notice' it. Doesn't hurt anything really...
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 04:52 PM

Quote:

EGR is only supposed to work at steady cruising speeds. Idle and wide open it doesn't work. So technically you shouldn't 'notice' it. Doesn't hurt anything really...



cept for throttle response to some degree...
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Had someone combing through my Engine compartment - 01/04/09 05:07 PM

Quote:

These EGR posts are great. The answer can be found at any car show, cruise in, or drag strip....after all EVERYBODY runs an EGR system for more performance

I think my engine is getting too much oxygen and fuel mixture in the cylinders...gotta reduce that somehow....



Yep,those are the guys running a stock 70's slant 6!! Goody has it right!!
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