440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue

Posted By: taboo

440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 12:10 AM

I am new to the forums and was hoping I could get some help with an issue I am currently dealing with. I purchased a 71 challenger 440 six pack clone about 6 months ago. I drove the car for about 3 months and started working on making it correct as there were basic issues in the engine bay.

Specifically, I replaced the rubber fuel lines and put in the correct stainless lines. I also changed the power valve because the engine was not cruising smoothly at a bit above idle. After checking the vacuum to be 10 psi I put a 4.5 high flow power valve in place of the original 8.5.

After changing the fuel lines and power valve, all of the sudden there was no longer getting any spark. After troubleshooting that issue I had the MSD box repaired and took the time to replace the spark plugs, wires, and distributor cap. That corrected the spark issue.

Now I can get the car to turn over but I am getting gasoline in the exhaust and can fill my garage full in smoke in less than 20 seconds. The car will also not idle well. I replaced the power valve again as I was concerned I damaged the first one (the high flow one). I now have a standard flow 4.5 in it and I am still having the same issues.

I am concerned I have connected something wrong but not sure what it could be. Sorry for the long post but I wanted to be sure I was giving all the info. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ron

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 12:32 AM

Make sure the power valve gasket is flush with the centering groove on the metering block and not distorted or up on the top of the centering groove. I take the metering block off of the carb. and turn it so it is facing the ground, I then install the power valve and new gasket from the bottom side(ground side) and watch as I screw it into the metering block to insure that the gasket seats properly

Thier is one other possible issue on Holley power valves, I will not and do not use any other brand of power valves, you shouldn't either

There are two diffeent styles of power valve gaskets, one with three fingers, tabs, pointing in for the power valves that have the round fuel inlet holes and the other completely round gasket inside and outside with no tabs, there for the power valves that have the rectangular fuel inlet holes

Don't mix them

Lots of gremlins out there, they hate us hot rodders also

Welcome to the jungle

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 12:48 AM

Like Cab said with the PV gasket and make sure the
needle and seat are working right... too high of a
setting or if its seeping will flood the engine with
fuel... you might be able to start it and have it run
but be way fat... sounds like the problem started
after you played with the PV

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 03:27 AM

I had an issue once w/ the gasket. (blue kind) There is a tiny hole in the bottom that air or fuel or something goes thru, in any event the gasket was blocking the hole, jeesh what a fit I had, It'd run for 30 seconds cut off, flood and so on. Opened the hole up and issues went away. After you check what Cab said give them the once over and start from scratch, check the floats, reset the idle mixtures, check you timing and so on.
Good luck.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 03:31 AM

this one...the gasket covered it up.

Attached picture 8024047-hole.jpg

Posted By: BSB67

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/03/14 03:47 AM

Quote:

this one...the gasket covered it up.

That is the squirter feed. Has nothing to do with flooding or cutting off. Would definitely cause a stumble on acceleration though.

Posted By: taboo

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/08/14 09:22 PM

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/08/14 09:31 PM

Quote:

Thank you all so much for help so far. I am still having the same issue though. I have replaced the power valve with another new one and made sure it was seated properly. I also replaced the needle and seats in all 3 carbs and set all three at the lowest setting possible. I also blocked the fuellines going to the outboard carbs so i am only running on the center carb. Lastly, i carefully ran the idle screw in the metering block almost all the way in. Still gassing out the garage in no time. Oddly with each change i have tried the problem does not seem to be changing at all. No improvement.

I believe the next things to check would be the timing and fuel pressure. Any other recommendations?

Try closing the mixture screws all the way... it should
stall out... if it doesnt then its pulling fuel...
from some where(assuming the throttle blade is closed
enough so you are on the idle circuit)

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/08/14 09:32 PM

Yes check your timing, whatever was done to the MSD box may have changed the timing slightly. Do you have a friend with a known good box to try?

Did the car ever run correct after you changed the power valve the first time? Or did you do that as the same time as the lines/your spark issue?

Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/08/14 09:33 PM

What kind of fuel pump? I would definitely check fuel pressure.... especially if its not a stock mechanical
pump.

Posted By: taboo

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/08/14 10:12 PM

All of the problems occurred at the same time. So i never got the car running since i started making "Improvements".

I closed the mixture screws on the center carb and it is now idling better than it was before but eventually stalls out.

I also removed the sight screw on the fuel bowl and watched to see if the fuel bowl was overfilling at all and i did not have fuel come out at all. If the fuel pressure was too high from the fuel pump would the fuel bowl overflow at the sight plug?

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 01:25 AM

Quote:

All of the problems occurred at the same time. So i never got the car running since i started making "Improvements".

I closed the mixture screws on the center carb and it is now idling better than it was before but eventually stalls out.

I also removed the sight screw on the fuel bowl and watched to see if the fuel bowl was overfilling at all and i did not have fuel come out at all. If the fuel pressure was too high from the fuel pump would the fuel bowl overflow at the sight plug?

If the fuel pressure was to high it would force open the needles and seats and flood the motor with fuel coming out of the vent tubes

Raise the float ups(with the motor running) a tiny bit at a time until the gas starts to just trickle out of the site plugs on all three carbs.. Stop rasing the floats then and put the site plugs back in to see if it will run okay with that float setting, if it starts to load up and flood lower the the needle adjustment about a 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn

Some guys like the float level higher than other guys, I like mine to dribble a little out of the site plugs, some like them to not run out and others like them to really flow out of the site plugs

You need to figure out what your motor likes

Enjoy the learning process

Six paks rock

Posted By: ek3

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 07:58 AM

you say it has a vac-reading of 10..depending on the cam, that could be a clue. mabe verifiy your initial timing @ 950 rpms . 15-18 * should make it burn "cleaner" in most cases. if it pings on acceleration, just taylor the curve to slow it down. you are getting a lot of good solid info from the above posts,440-6's are typicial tail pipe stinkers!

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 05:59 PM

I run mine at 6.25 of pressure and the floats right at plug level. Bump your timing to 36* total, and 18* initial and see if that helps, depending on your cam you might need 1000k at idle.

Posted By: GomangoCuda

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 06:04 PM

Quote:

depending on your cam you might need 1000k at idle.

What?

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 07:08 PM

Quote:

you say it has a vac-reading of 10..depending on the cam, that could be a clue. mabe verifiy your initial timing @ 950 rpms . 15-18 * should make it burn "cleaner" in most cases. if it pings on acceleration, just taylor the curve to slow it down. you are getting a lot of good solid info from the above posts,440-6's are typicial tail pipe stinkers!

And also, a 6.5 power valve will work fine !

Posted By: fastnos

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 07:15 PM

Thank you all so much for help so far. I am still having the same issue though. I have replaced the power valve with another new one and made sure it was seated properly. I also replaced the needle and seats in all 3 carbs and set all three at the lowest setting possible. I also blocked the fuellines going to the outboard carbs so i am only running on the center carb. Lastly, i carefully ran the idle screw in the metering block almost all the way in. Still gassing out the garage in no time. Oddly with each change i have tried the problem does not seem to be changing at all. No improvement.

This didnt make sense to me. From what I have read and heard, the 6 pack uses the front and rear carbs to Idle. The Idle mixture screws are sometimes hidden behind little caps on the base plate and the rear can be a real pain to adjust. But if you have blocked the fuel lines from going to the front and rear carbs, this will throw off your whole set up.
Someone else please confirm or dispel this please..

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 07:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

depending on your cam you might need 1000k at idle.

What?

I'm at 850.. just saying in N it might like a higher idle.

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 08:21 PM

Did you change the gasket between the metering block and main body ?

Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 08:42 PM

Trouble shooting 101 says to establish the proper baseline and proceed...

It's a good thing this is not a real help desk as I would fire every one of you...with that said - the OP needs the guide to tuning six paks which has been posted one too many times. Maybe you can help him now in a proper fashion.

Posted By: screamindriver

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/09/14 10:35 PM

Quote:

Trouble shooting 101 says to establish the proper baseline and proceed...

It's a good thing this is not a real help desk as I would fire every one of you...with that said - the OP needs the guide to tuning six paks which has been posted one too many times. Maybe you can help him now in a proper fashion.

Holy cow I don't know if there's any room left in the thread after that massive ego that just took up all the room...And actually did nothing to help the guy either...

Here was an old thread that Dayclona posted that can get it done... LINK
Did'nt see anything in the "bestof/tech" archives so not sure whatever you're refering to...

Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/10/14 12:59 AM

Quote:

Did you change the gasket between the metering block and main body ?

I'll clarify my question,there are two metering block gaskets,if by chance you mistakenly used the one on the left with the notch,you can have the condition you mentioned.

Attached picture 8033452-images.jpeg

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 02/10/14 02:08 AM

If you disconnect the fuel to the outboard carbs you will have them running very lean

Hook them back up

Remove both outbaord carbs and remove the lead plugs in front of the idle mixture screws in the base plates so you can adjust the idle fuelmixtures , tighten them up all the way in, very gently, and then back them both out on both ides 1/8 to 1/2 of a turn out from fully seated. Set the center carb. idle mixture scerws the same way except bring them out 1 to 1 1/2 turns from fully seated and try that

Let us knwo how that works

BTW, while your removing the carbs. remove the center carb and unscrew the idle speed screw so the throttle plates are fully closed, flip the carb. over when you do this so you can verify that both the throttle plates are fully closed and not honk up for some off the wall reason

Once they are fully closed verify the outboards the same way, you should be able to make the motor idle with less than one full turn in,opening it, on the center idle mixture screw from fully closed

Don't we love our Mopars, especially them multi carb. rascals

They do run so good once you get them close

Posted By: sogtx

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 03/02/14 02:56 PM

What do you mean gassing up - Do your eyes burn or do you smell raw fuel .. ?

If your eyes burn youre too lean ..

if you smell raw gas .. hope your car is outside of the garage

Quote:

Thank you all so much for help so far. I am still having the same issue though. I have replaced the power valve with another new one and made sure it was seated properly. I also replaced the needle and seats in all 3 carbs and set all three at the lowest setting possible. I also blocked the fuellines going to the outboard carbs so i am only running on the center carb. Lastly, i carefully ran the idle screw in the metering block almost all the way in. Still gassing out the garage in no time. Oddly with each change i have tried the problem does not seem to be changing at all. No improvement.

I believe the next things to check would be the timing and fuel pressure. Any other recommendations?

Posted By: sogtx

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 03/02/14 03:15 PM

Yep it spretty sad - Quad has posted his guidelines to help people not get discouraged by six packs and to the best of my knowledge its never been inserted into the tech section..

Heres the link from the a12 forum ..

http://a12mopar.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1298298672/0

you can take a little of quads ,you can look at some of scatpacktoms posts and a little of dayclonas or whoevers and get good results

Tom Q taught me the patience to get mine straight ..

Why wont the mods finally make it a direct link in their archives ???
The forum gets cluttered with repeat questions ( im sure im guilty of this too sometimes )

But if a search is done these guys posts should turn up..

Here is a guide to tune six packs for street engines. Revised 01-2011 Stroker or non stroker, big block or small block. Never the final word, but close enough for now, it gets updated from time to time. This is not for the faint of heart. If you wondered why people shy away from six paks just read on. I have compiled and rewritten the info contained from within along with my own experience from driving a six pak car with a lot of wow! for many years. When tuned properly Six pak cars turn on! faster & run far better than single 4 barrel cars. If you want your six pak car to run like it should do the dance and have the right tools to make it happen. Patience must be used throughout the process. Much of the information here can be used on a 4 barrel as well.

Quote:

Quote:

Trouble shooting 101 says to establish the proper baseline and proceed... It's a good thing this is not a real help desk as I would fire every one of you...with that said - the OP needs the guide to tuning six paks which has been posted one too many times. Maybe you can help him now in a proper fashion.

Posted By: sogtx

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 03/02/14 03:23 PM

The six pak help here in tech archives is 13 years old

How com either one of the rivals quad or dayclonas hasn't been inserted ?

I know .. the mods only drive 2 bbl cars ..

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/fuel/7.html

Quote:

Quote:

Trouble shooting 101 says to establish the proper baseline and proceed...

It's a good thing this is not a real help desk as I would fire every one of you...with that said - the OP needs the guide to tuning six paks which has been posted one too many times. Maybe you can help him now in a proper fashion.

Holy cow I don't know if there's any room left in the thread after that massive ego that just took up all the room...And actually did nothing to help the guy either...

Here was an old thread that Dayclona posted that can get it done... LINK
Did'nt see anything in the "bestof/tech" archives so not sure whatever you're refering to...

Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: 440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue - 03/03/14 12:07 AM

Check your initial engine timing. If not enough advance, your center carb could have the idle speed screw set to where the throttle butterflies are in the so called transition zone,,,,instead of almost closed where they should in order that fuel mixture screws will have their proper effect,,,,in other words, Advancing the timing(say to 20 degrees) will increase idle speed, thereby allowing you to slow it down again at the carb's idle speed screw,,,ergo butterflies are closed down properly to where idle mixture screws will have their proper effect.

Depending upon how much initial advance is established by you,,,be certain to set distributor to limit 'total' as to where you will want it,,,,likely 32 to 36 degrees.

Often when idle mixture screws do not have proper response it will be this problem(this is why often a vacuum advance will help), or a vacuum leak or float level, or blown or improper power valve. The first 2 are the simplest to check and both are common.

Attached picture 8059291-image.jpg

Posted By: sogtx

440 6 pack Need help with solving fuel in exhaust issue