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Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions

Posted By: Badge

Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 01:50 AM

I am replacing a mid 70's 360 with a mid 80's motor. I noticed that the 70's motor has a big counter weight on the crank balancer that is missing on the mid 80's motor. I need schooling on this. The transmission I will use will come off the mid 70's motor. Can I assume there will be more external balance weights on the converter? Will I need a non weighted converter for the newer application? Thanks
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 01:55 AM

Quote:

I am replacing a mid 70's 360 with a mid 80's motor. I noticed that the 70's motor has a big counter weight on the crank balancer that is missing on the mid 80's motor. I need schooling on this. The transmission I will use will come off the mid 70's motor. Can I assume there will be more external balance weights on the converter? Will I need a non weighted converter for the newer application? Thanks




All 360s are externally balanced...all need weight on the damper/balancer and all need weight on either the converter or the flexplate...

weighted converters from 360s are interchangeable.. as is the dampers.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 02:23 AM

Quote:



All 360s are externally balanced...all need weight on the damper/balancer and all need weight on either the converter or the flexplate...

weighted converters from 360s are interchangeable.. as is the dampers.




Well, this is true for the LA series of 360 engines. The Magum 360/5.9 engines use a different balance factor.
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 02:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:



All 360s are externally balanced...all need weight on the damper/balancer and all need weight on either the converter or the flexplate...

weighted converters from 360s are interchangeable.. as is the dampers.




Well, this is true for the LA series of 360 engines. The Magum 360/5.9 engines use a different balance factor.





His question deals with 70s and 80s 360 if you can read....LOL...
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 02:28 AM

I read what he wrote. Sometimes these threads apply to more than just the OP and we wouldn't want to lead anyone astray would we?
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 03:41 AM

If you answer the question that is asked..then you are not leading the OP a stray....pretty simple...
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 03:43 AM

Frankenduster, while you are correct about other people reading this remember one technical detail here. The 360 is an LA motor and the 5.9 is a magnum, technically speaking, though people tend to be flexible about the terminology.

So you are both right.

Also, to address the OP's concerns, early 360's and later 360's have different design balancers, as you have seen. they are interchangeable though.
Posted By: dezduster

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 03:59 AM

Exact info I was searching. LA balancer info. Thank you.
Posted By: Badge

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 04:26 AM

OK, so all the 360's are external balanced. That is good news. What threw me was the damper on the newer motor not having the noticeable counterweight.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 12:07 PM

Look on the back side of the damper, you'll probably have to pull it to see.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 12:13 PM

Quote:

If you answer the question that is asked..then you are not leading the OP a stray....pretty simple...




you're right.

but what happens when you say "all 360s balancers are interchangeable" and then a year and a half from now, someone is googling/searching for their question on whether or not they can use their original balancer and converter when they swap a magnum motor in place of their original LA motor?

(and yes, I've come across 5 year old threads on Moparts when doing a google search)


no need to get defensive, you were focusing on just the OPs question, and Mr Grammar was thinking about others who had or will have a similar question. Especially when Mopar sold "Magnum 5.9s" as "360 cubic inch, 380hp crate motors" which certainly adds additional confusion to the topic.
Posted By: 360view

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 01:53 PM

Does anyone have knowledge of how close to
"true balance"
the externally weighted
360 LA and Magnum 5.9 V8
typically are from the factory ?

Are they within, say 15 grams of zero?

Are the internally neutral 318/5.2 V8s
typically better balanced from the factory?

I know a guess always has to be made about the weight of "residual oil" clinging to the crankshaft of a running engine.

It has seemed to me that 318s have less vibration than 360s

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Crankshaft-Engine-Stroker-Kit-Balance-Balancing-/10000000013602009/g.html

sample quote

So what does this actually mean in terms of the forces generated inside an engine? An imbalance of only 1/4 oz. (7 grams) located four inches out from the center of the crank on a counterweight will generate a force of about 7 lbs. at 2,000 rpm. At low rpm, you would hardly feel a thing. But at 8,000 rpm, that same force would grow to 114 lbs. with every revolution of the crank. If this same engine had one ounce (28 grams) of imbalance, the forces generated would be multiplied by a factor of four, generating 456 lbs. of unwanted gyrations at 8,000 rpm!

That’s enough vibration to rattle your teeth and pound the heck out of the main bearings. It’s also wasted motion that goes into shaking the block instead of spinning the crankshaft. Consequently, imbalance hurts horsepower as well as smoothness and engine longevity.

The factory balance of crankshafts can vary a great deal depending on the application and the OEM tolerances.
For a low rpm stock engine, plus or minus 8 to 10 grams or more may be close enough for the average Joe.

For a street performance engine, those numbers should come down to plus or minus 3 grams or less.
And for a high revving NASCAR engine that spends most of its time at 8,500 to 9,500 rpm, plus or minus 1 gram or less is the rule.

How much is 1 gram? Not very much. A dollar bill weighs one gram. A penny, by comparison, weighs about 2-1/2 grams. An ordinary sheet of office paper tips the scale at a whopping 5 grams, which is more than the amount of imbalance that’s generally desired in a street engine.
Posted By: racealittle

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 04:26 PM

Are the two factory harmonic balancers the same? ('70's vs '80's). The 1974 damper I have has a huge amount of weight cast into it. The 1982 damper that I have has a smoother, lighter design where the weight has been removed (machined away) to balance it. I am not sure that they are completely interchangeable. I'm sure many have done the swap with no known ill effects. I am hesitant. The crankshafts also appear to be machined differently to me (at least the ones that I am comparing).
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 07:39 PM

Interchangeable, all years of LA360.

Just not the LA with the Mag.

R.
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 08:05 PM

Look at an Aftermarket balancer...such as Professional Product 90012, it comes with 3 bolt on weights...

one weight for cast crank externally balanced 340

one weight for cast crank externally balanced LA 360s 71-92

one weight for cast crank externally balanced magnum 360

and the balancer can be used with no weights for a internally balanced 318/340...

dont see a different weight for a 70s 360 nor a different weight for a 80s 360...

So Albert Einstein would concluded that one weight would fit all 360s from 71-92...which is weighted the same as OEM balancers from 71-92....
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 08:12 PM

Quote:

Does anyone have knowledge of how close to
"true balance"
the externally weighted
360 LA and Magnum 5.9 V8
typically are from the factory ?

Are they within, say 15 grams of zero?

Are the internally neutral 318/5.2 V8s
typically better balanced from the factory?

I know a guess always has to be made about the weight of "residual oil" clinging to the crankshaft of a running engine.

It has seemed to me that 318s have less vibration than 360s

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Crankshaft-Engine-Stroker-Kit-Balance-Balancing-/10000000013602009/g.html

sample quote

So what does this actually mean in terms of the forces generated inside an engine? An imbalance of only 1/4 oz. (7 grams) located four inches out from the center of the crank on a counterweight will generate a force of about 7 lbs. at 2,000 rpm. At low rpm, you would hardly feel a thing. But at 8,000 rpm, that same force would grow to 114 lbs. with every revolution of the crank. If this same engine had one ounce (28 grams) of imbalance, the forces generated would be multiplied by a factor of four, generating 456 lbs. of unwanted gyrations at 8,000 rpm!

That’s enough vibration to rattle your teeth and pound the heck out of the main bearings. It’s also wasted motion that goes into shaking the block instead of spinning the crankshaft. Consequently, imbalance hurts horsepower as well as smoothness and engine longevity.

The factory balance of crankshafts can vary a great deal depending on the application and the OEM tolerances.
For a low rpm stock engine, plus or minus 8 to 10 grams or more may be close enough for the average Joe.

For a street performance engine, those numbers should come down to plus or minus 3 grams or less.
And for a high revving NASCAR engine that spends most of its time at 8,500 to 9,500 rpm, plus or minus 1 gram or less is the rule.

How much is 1 gram? Not very much. A dollar bill weighs one gram. A penny, by comparison, weighs about 2-1/2 grams. An ordinary sheet of office paper tips the scale at a whopping 5 grams, which is more than the amount of imbalance that’s generally desired in a street engine.




the balance of a engine whether is it internally or externally is based on the weight of the rods and pistons...

A 360 has a cast crank which material is not as dense as some people heads on the forum...there fore addition weight must be added to balanced the rotating assembly...so from the factory..the cheapest way to do it is to add weight to the balancer and converter...

a 318 is internally balanced with a cast crank because the weight of the rods and pistons..which are smaller in size ...hence dont weight as much allow the cast crank to be internally balanced...

to balance an externally balanced 360...heavy metal (mallory) which is very dense is added to the counterweights...how much is added depends on the weight of the pistons and rods...

get lighter rods and pistons...not as much mallory metal is required to balance a 360...
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 08:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Does anyone have knowledge of how close to
"true balance"
the externally weighted
360 LA and Magnum 5.9 V8
typically are from the factory ?

Are they within, say 15 grams of zero?

Are the internally neutral 318/5.2 V8s
typically better balanced from the factory?

I know a guess always has to be made about the weight of "residual oil" clinging to the crankshaft of a running engine.

It has seemed to me that 318s have less vibration than 360s

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Crankshaft-Engine-Stroker-Kit-Balance-Balancing-/10000000013602009/g.html

sample quote

So what does this actually mean in terms of the forces generated inside an engine? An imbalance of only 1/4 oz. (7 grams) located four inches out from the center of the crank on a counterweight will generate a force of about 7 lbs. at 2,000 rpm. At low rpm, you would hardly feel a thing. But at 8,000 rpm, that same force would grow to 114 lbs. with every revolution of the crank. If this same engine had one ounce (28 grams) of imbalance, the forces generated would be multiplied by a factor of four, generating 456 lbs. of unwanted gyrations at 8,000 rpm!

That’s enough vibration to rattle your teeth and pound the heck out of the main bearings. It’s also wasted motion that goes into shaking the block instead of spinning the crankshaft. Consequently, imbalance hurts horsepower as well as smoothness and engine longevity.

The factory balance of crankshafts can vary a great deal depending on the application and the OEM tolerances.
For a low rpm stock engine, plus or minus 8 to 10 grams or more may be close enough for the average Joe.

For a street performance engine, those numbers should come down to plus or minus 3 grams or less.
And for a high revving NASCAR engine that spends most of its time at 8,500 to 9,500 rpm, plus or minus 1 gram or less is the rule.

How much is 1 gram? Not very much. A dollar bill weighs one gram. A penny, by comparison, weighs about 2-1/2 grams. An ordinary sheet of office paper tips the scale at a whopping 5 grams, which is more than the amount of imbalance that’s generally desired in a street engine.




the balance of a engine whether is it internally or externally is based on the weight of the rods and pistons...

A 360 has a cast crank which material is not as dense as some people heads on the forum...there fore addition weight must be added to balanced the rotating assembly...so from the factory..the cheapest way to do it is to add weight to the balancer and converter...

a 318 is internally balanced with a cast crank because the weight of the rods and pistons..which are smaller in size ...hence dont weight as much allow the cast crank to be internally balanced...

to balance an externally balanced 360...heavy metal (mallory) which is very dense is added to the counterweights...how much is added depends on the weight of the pistons and rods...

get lighter rods and pistons...not as much mallory metal is required to balance a 360...





Speaking of density, 318 and 360 used the exact same rods after about 72 and.... a 318 piston is heavier than a 360 piston.

The 318 has a shorter stroke so the weight has less affect on the imbalance and requires less balance weight and therefor can be internally balanced with a cast crank even though the bob weight is heavier.
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 08:32 PM

a quick checks of ICON flattop 318 pistons weights in at.....492 grams...

and a ICON flattop 360 weights in at..530 grams..

kinds of throws that 318 pistons are heavier out the window..
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 08:54 PM

Quote:

a quick checks of ICON flattop 318 pistons weights in at.....492 grams...

and a ICON flattop 360 weights in at..530 grams..

kinds of throws that 318 pistons are heavier out the window..




Sorry, didn't know we were talking aftermarket forged pistons, I thought it was stock stuff he was messing with and the bone stock 86 360 piston in my left hand is 163 grams lighter than the 87 318 piston in my right according to my digital scale.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/29/13 09:27 PM

Quote:




Speaking of density, 318 and 360 used the exact same rods after about 72 and.... a 318 piston is heavier than a 360 piston.

The 318 has a shorter stroke so the weight has less affect on the imbalance and requires less balance weight and therefor can be internally balanced with a cast crank even though the bob weight is heavier.




I don't think so, Tim.

How stroke affects balance is more the distance the weight of the crank pin is away from center than what you are saying.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 12:50 AM

STOCK 318 LA pistons scale in at about 591 grams, STOCK 360LA pistons scale in at around 570 grams.

Lightweight forged aftermarket pistons do not count when talking about STOCK BALANCING.

R.
Posted By: 70AARcuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 01:47 AM

So engines built in the 70-80s...are still driving around with stock pistons in them...wow.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 01:58 AM

Quote:

So engines built in the 70-80s...are still driving around with stock pistons in them...wow.




My 87 318 still has the stock ... everything running around. BTW, smarty pants, stock REPLACEMENT pistons are built by the aftermarket as STOCK replacements for rebuilds and I would bet there are more of them running around than forged aftermarket setups. That means stock weights, or as close as can be gotten.
Posted By: 360view

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 04:20 PM

So are the factory balance jobs
on externally weighted 360 V8 assemblies
reasonably good.
are they less than
15 grams or so?

Is there a trend for the factory weights to be
slightly heavy,
or slightly light?

Who are a few of the best shops
in the Eastern USA
to balance crankshat rotating assemblies?
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 05:34 PM

Quote:

So engines built in the 70-80s...are still driving around with stock pistons in them...wow.





I would say the vast majority are. I rebuild probably on average one a month and most still (probably as high as 9 out of 10) have all the stock stuff when we tear them apart
Posted By: bboogieart

Re: Small Block Internal and External Balance Questions - 10/30/13 05:35 PM

Sorry O/T but...
Quote:

So engines built in the 70-80s...are still driving around with stock pistons in them...wow.



I am currently running a 76 in a pick up and a 77 in a van.
Also have a 383 & 318, both 68s, ready to run with original internals as well.
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