Moparts
Timing chain slip
Posted By: dnd0001
Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 02:58 AM
I have a freshly built 1970 340. It has 1600 miles on it. It was broke in on an engine Dino. While cruising down the road it died. Did all the MSD checks and I have good spark. Put in New Msd box I have laying around. Checked the coil, I have good spark. Replace rotor, cap and pickup. All good. Using a compression tester set it to TDC. The rotor is off about 30-40 degrees. When the engine is running I'm at 45 degrees at idle on the crank shaft and timing light. It should be 16 degrees. What else could it be besides the timing chain. I thought I heard it slapping at idle. Anything else? I'm thinking of pulling the fuel pump and use a remote camera to look at the timing chain. Is it worth fixing or does it mean there a bigger problem. I know a lot of questions, I just frustrated with a new engine build.
Posted By: 340SHORTY
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 03:29 AM
Did it get a real TC or a nylon 1 ???
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 04:00 AM
My finger is long enough that if I pull the fuel pump on an LA I can push on the timing chain and feel the slack. However, I would assume you replaced the timing chain when you went thru the engine so it shouldn't have slack. I forget the spec for slack in the chain, but the FSM should have it.
I forget how many degrees off one tooth is, 37 comes to mind but I could be wrong. One thing to remember is that if it gets far enough off you can bend valves. I would not try to run it until you verify the cam timing is correct. This mean you will have to pull the timing cover.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 04:19 AM
That is not alot of questions
. Get the ten dollar tool that fits in the spark plug hole & find/get the piston at exact TDC & at that point see if the dampener timing slit is within a degree or two of zero on the timing tab. this'll tell you if the dampener has or has not slipped. Pull the plugs to make turning easier & with a 1&1/4" socket/ breaker bar turn the crank till either the #1 or the #6 cyls' rocker arms are both moving & open the same distance (rock back/forth & get em equal) & at that point see if the dampener slit is within a degree or two of being at zero on the timing tab which will tell you if the timing chain has or has not jumped a tooth. Holler back with any news. EDIT Faster yet (Assuming the dampener ain't slipped which that is rare) & it did die when running & even if the dampener slipped when going down the road that would not cause it to die, put the timing mark slit on zero (TDC) on the timing tab & the rotor should be right at or very close to either the #1 or #6 plug wire dist cap terminal. That'll give you an answer in no time
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 10:35 AM
I will have to check with the engine builder and see what kind of TC was installed.
I did get the compress tester to verify that I was at TDC. The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark.
Why would the timing chain/belt slip with only 1600 miles?I assume it was a timing chain and not a nylon?
I will pull the fuel pump and see what the belt is and what kind of slack.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 02:47 PM
slack is easy to tell,just take the balancer turn one direction then the other, look how much it moves, you will feel the slack in the chain if it has any! it should be almost nil! All chains will have some, but close to 1 - 2* is normal I would think,??
If it has movement,take chain out replace it!
There are companies out there that make a slack adj tensor for loose chains too
Posted By: GTX MATT
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 03:10 PM
Quote:
I will have to check with the engine builder and see what kind of TC was installed.
I did get the compress tester to verify that I was at TDC. The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark.
Why would the timing chain/belt slip with only 1600 miles?I assume it was a timing chain and not a nylon?
I will pull the fuel pump and see what the belt is and what kind of slack.
How did you verify TDC with a compression tester? Is the harmonic balancer also "zeroed" at this point?
Grab your rotor and try to turn it counterclockwise and clockwise. On a small block it should turn clockwise but not counterclockwise. I've seen the MSDs get rusty/crappy/break springs/get stuck with the advance on. Shouldn't make the car stall but it would explain your apparent over-advance.
Are you sure its 40 degrees?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 03:20 PM
Quote:
The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark.
unless the dist housing got loose & turned (not likely) I'd cut to the chase & pull the dampener/tcover & see what you see. I would first put the #6 piston on TDC compression so you should be 6/12 dot to dot if no slip (which'll help your diagnosis when you get there. My gut tells me we're still missing something here 
. Holler how it goes
Posted By: HemiSportFury
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 03:26 PM
Did you verify that the distributor is locked down tight and did not slip position while you were driving? Did you check the rotor position before this happened?
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 06:03 PM
I will try and answer all the questions.
No nylon timing gears.
I too thought the distributor slipped while driving as well.
I used a compression tester to get on the compression stroke and adjusted it to TDC on the damper. I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. Before pulling the distributor the rotor was pointing off towards #4.
Do not know if the distributor was lose before hand. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain.
Thought I heard something raddling, not sure where from.
I have check the MSD system very closely. Even replace the pickup, new cap, box and rotor. its only 1 year old and has very little rust. all is loose.
The damper gos to 50 and with the car at idle and the ignition light its about 45-46 on the damper.
Don't want to take it apart until I've pulled the fuel pump and checked the chain tension and look inside with a borscope camera. Im also going to use the camera to check each cylinder for any damage of a slipped chain.
Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 06:28 PM
Quote:
I will try and answer all the questions.
No nylon timing gears.
I too thought the distributor slipped while driving as well.
I used a compression tester to get on the compression stroke and adjusted it to TDC on the damper. I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. Before pulling the distributor the rotor was pointing off towards #4.
Do not know if the distributor was lose before hand. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain.
Thought I heard something raddling, not sure where from.
I have check the MSD system very closely. Even replace the pickup, new cap, box and rotor. its only 1 year old and has very little rust. all is loose.
The damper gos to 50 and with the car at idle and the ignition light its about 45-46 on the damper.
Don't want to take it apart until I've pulled the fuel pump and checked the chain tension and look inside with a borscope camera. Im also going to use the camera to check each cylinder for any damage of a slipped chain.
Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool.
You need to mechaincally confirm TDC with a stop because it's possible your balancer may have slipped ... not that a slipped balancer would have caused the engine to die like it did .
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 06:36 PM
slipped balancer...
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 08:38 PM
Quote:
I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain.
Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool.
actually the gear slot can be straight ahead (parallel) as the bottom tang to rotor clocking (phasing) is different on some dists & it's where the rotor is in relation to the crank/cam that counts. pulling a valve cover & getting rockover to find piston TDC via the timing marks is only valid to confirm that the chain ain't jumped IF the dampener ain't slipped. some of the symptoms ain't adding up & I'm gonna go out on a limb & predict that the dampener/chain are fine & the prob is dist related. Keep up posted! Might just stick a coat hangar down on the piston & get as close to piston TDC as you can & with you're timing being off that much if the dampener slit is then pretty close to TDC on the tab that will pretty much confirm that it ain't the dampener. If you can easily locate or make the tool that'd be good as you will use it in the future.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/01/13 11:56 PM
OK I have done the compression test again to get it close. Then I put a pencil down #1 and adjusted the damper until it looks like the pencil is at the top. It's close to TDC marks in the damper. So the damper looks to be OK. I was next going to remove the fuel pump to feel the chain and stick a camera in there to see what I can see just to make sure. Is that a waste of time?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/02/13 01:02 AM
Quote:
So the damper looks to be OK. and stick a camera in there to see what I can see just to make sure.
Progress! It appears that the dampener is Ok. The camera would help you see any damage & I'm sure you could stick something in there to feel for excessive slack but I would suggest with the dampener slit on TDC on the tab (which you're close to now) that if you're on #1 compression to remove the pass valve cover & turn the crank a bit back & forth till both of #6's rockers are moving/& equal height which is "rockover" & at that point if the chain ain't slipped the dampener will be within a degree or two of TDC on the tab. If with the dampener on TDC of the tab (which you're close to now) if the #1 cyl is on overlap rather than compression then pull the drivers valve cover & get the #1 cyls' rocker arms on "rockover" & at that point same deal see if the dampener slit is within a degree or two of TDC on the tab. If so it ain't slipped. If all is well (no jumped chain) you might not be exactly within a degree of two depending on if its an asymetrical lobe cam and or if it's been advanced but as far as it is off from normal "rockover" is going to tell us something significant here
Posted By: dodgeboy11
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/02/13 03:10 AM
Anybody ever have a gear slip on the oil pump drive? Maybe something locked up the oil pump, it broke the pin and slipped the gear on the shaft? About the only thing I can think of that would cause the issues described aside from a skipped timing set, and the timing set on the 318 that was in my challenger was so loose I could almost lift the chain up over the broken teeth on the nylon cam gear and get it to jump, but it didn't. Only other thing I can think of is maybe the key isn't in the keyway on the cam?
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/02/13 11:10 PM
I took off both valve covers. Put it on TDC on the compression stroke on #1. Looked at #6 and turned it back and forth until even. one will be going up and the other down and try to stop when they are even? Is that correct? If so I'm showing about 16 degrees off TDC. Both valves on #1 are closed. The distibutor is not on #1. It's between #1 and #8. The car was running at that setting.
I think next I will put it on #6 compression stroke and see if with the camera the two marks are lined up. If nothing else
check the chain for tension. I too thought about the sproket slipping on the pit. I will pull the fuel pump and see what I see. Just need to make sure I did the rock over correctly?
Car running the oil pressure is good unless it slipped and went back in and started to work. I will pull the timing gear and see what the end looks like.
By the way I put the borscope down each spark plug hole and didn't see any marks from valves. But the pistons have recesses for the valves.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 04:47 AM
Quote:
I took off both valve covers. Put it on TDC on the compression stroke on #1. Looked at #6 and turned it back and forth until even. one will be going up and the other down and try to stop when they are even? Is that correct? If so I'm showing about 16 degrees off TDC. Both valves on #1 are closed. The distibutor is not on #1. It's between #1 and #8. The car was running at that setting. Just need to make sure I did the rock over correctly?
Yes you did rockover correct. It would appear? that the chain or something has slipped (I still dont think it's the chain) just because you were cruising down the road when it happened but... If the borescope will let you see if you're on dot to dot (6/12 o'clock) with the dampener slit on TDC then yes take advantage of the tool. I've wanted one of those 
& now I really want one
Posted By: buildanother
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 05:06 AM
Is it running decent at this point? What you say about rotor being between 1 and 8 is correct when initial btdc advance is set. If it was right on #1 at top dead center, it would be doggy and need more advance. It would be a drag to remove cover to find it all lines up.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 05:16 AM
Quote:
It would be a drag to remove cover to find it all lines up.
My thoughts too. With the slit on zero on the tab where is the rotor at? & how much can you move the dampener back & forth before the rotor moves?
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 01:27 PM
I do appreciate all the help. I'm learning as I go. I know enough to be dangerous. Little hard to do everything by my self.
But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves.
Next this morning I will pull the fuel pump and stick the camera in and see what I can see. In order to see the marks at 6 and 12 should I be at TDC on #1 or #6?
Posted By: drew72
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 01:37 PM
Quote:
I do appreciate all the help. I'm learning as I go. I know enough to be dangerous. Little hard to do everything by my self.
But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves.
Next this morning I will pull the fuel pump and stick the camera in and see what I can see. In order to see the marks at 6 and 12 should I be at TDC on #1 or #6?
You're at #6 when the dots are at 6&12
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 02:37 PM
Fuel pump is off. I can't see if the marks line up with the camera. The cam chain mark is down, I just can't tell if its straight down. It's a duel chain/sprocket. I can lift the chain off the sprocket slightly and the chain to me seems loose. Looser than when it was first put on that's for sure. So if it did slip a tooth what would have caused that? I know the chain will stretch some but with only1600 miles it should be that stretched?
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 02:40 PM
Quote:
Fuel pump is off. I can't see if the marks line up with the camera. The cam chain mark is down, I just can't tell if its straight down. It's a duel chain/sprocket. I can lift the chain off the sprocket slightly and the chain to me seems loose. Looser than when it was first put on that's for sure. So if it did slip a tooth what would have caused that? I know the chain will stretch some but with only1600 miles it should be that stretched?
Some years ago, I needed to replace the timing chain in my 318. I was doing other stuff too and this was mostly preventative since I was there anyway. I got a Summit house brand because I thought the name brand stuff was overpriced.
That timing chain was looser than my original 100k+ one after about 2-3000 miles. Since then I only run name brand units. I like Edelbrock sets so I run them.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 02:54 PM
Thanks for the info. I don't know what one the engine builder used. He may have even used the original which was new when I bought the car. He tried to reuse the original cam shaft until the actual mechanic told me that they did. i had them replace it, which i hope they did? Don' t know the brand. I have emailed him telling him my findings. This is the engine builder that forgot to put the plug in the oil port. So when the car was being broke in the oil was bypassing the oil filter for the first 10 minutes until the Dino guy noticed the oil filter wasn't at temperature. He checked the main bearings and didn't like what he saw so he replaced the main bearings supposedly.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 03:13 PM
Quote:
But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves.
With it at TDC the rotor is at (or near) #6 cap terminal correct? At or near the #1 terminal is perfectly OK also. If so the chain ain't slipped & the 5-8 deg is a significant amount of slop but not a dealbreaker & the problem is elsewhere. You're original "initial" timing was 16 so I'd bring the dampener back up to that (16) on the tab starting at 20 or so always going clockwise to take the slack out of the chain then turn the housing till the magnet is dead even with the tooth that places the rotor under or near under the #6 or the #1 cap terminal. At that point it should fire/run but holler if something is wonky & wont let you set it this way such as when lined up with the tooth the rotor is way off from being under/close to #1 or #6
Posted By: 62maxwgn
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 03:39 PM
There are good chain's and there are bad chain's,the bad out number the good by about 75%
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 03:59 PM
With #6 at TDC on the compression stroke the distributor is in the middle of #6 and #5 plug wires.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 04:12 PM
Quote:
With #6 at TDC on the compression stroke the distributor is in the middle of #6 and #5 plug wires.
OK: Can you now turn the housing till the magnet is lined up with the tooth & will that put the rotor under or nearly under The #6 cap terminal? I gotta head out the door but I will check back later
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 06:23 PM
The #6 and #1 is confusing me. I won't back to TDC on #1 compression stroke. After feeling the timing chain about 5 more times, I would say I can push it in about 1/8 or a little more. I can't pull the chain off the top of the cam sprocket, only on the side which I assume is normal.
Turning it clockwise from 40 I now is at 16 degrees before TDC on the dampener. I loosened the distributor hold down. Turned the distributor head until #1 wire was lined up with the rotor cap. The reluctor paddle is in the magnet on the opposite side. Is that all correct?
It started and kept running. The timing at idle is showing 20 degrees. I did change back the springs on the msd distributor to make sure the advance wasn't kicking in. I had it set to kick in at 800 RPMs. Maybe that was the problem when I was getting the 40-50 range along with to must advance?
If I set it for 16 shouldn't re reading 16 on the dampener instead of 20?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/03/13 11:30 PM
I should have put in my post to: from TDC #1 compression back the crank up (CCW) slightly to 20 then come forward (CW) to 16 (takes the slack out of the chain) then line the magnet up with the tooth that places the rotor under or near under the #1 cap rotor which you ended up doing
. regarding it showing 20 with the light, it fires when the tooth JUST moves away from the magnet which if anything would retard it a bit from 16 (maybe to 15) going from the static setting to what the timing light shows rather than advancing it (& you have 20). I'm assuming the vac adv line to the carb is on ported (no vac adv at idle) & that the weights ain't advancing at idle. Just set the timing at 16 as that was what it was at before & it ran OK. The problem now is that unless something was loose in the dist that is has been rectified with what you have done then the cause of why it died still ain't been addressed yet (I'm hoping it has) as we know now that the dampener and the tchain were OK & we have only tinkered with the dizzy.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 12:32 AM
It's starting hard. Way harder than it use too. Once I get her going it hardly running. To the point when I get it it dies. Once it warmed up a little I could keep it going. When I tried to adjust it down it die and won't start. It runs better when I'm up at around 30 with the timing light. Its like it wants to be at 34 like it is during all in. I can't run it at 16. I don,t use vacuum advance. I have the MSD distributor with the springs and the weights. Something just isn't right with the timing.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 02:31 AM
First thing is take the springs throw em as far as possible either weld it zip tie put screw in the advance plate so it can't move , put back in set timing at 2500 total of 32-34 deg
see how runs!
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 02:39 AM
Oh I had erroneously assumed that it was running OK now. You know the chain may be slipped. You did the timing correct: Put the slit on TDC on the tab with the #1 cyl on compression then backing it CCW slightly to 20 then forward to 16 then turning the housing till the rotor is under or nearly under the cap terminal with the #1 plug wire AND at that same place the magnet is dead even with the tooth. From our hillbilly test on the dampener it sounds OK (not slipped) & that leaves jumped chain (which I still doubt for some reason) mainly I think cuz this happened at a steady cruise (if I read that right) or an ign malfunction in the Might Sputter & Die system
Posted By: buildanother
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 02:53 AM
I'd make sure there are no vacuum leaks as well, because that will mess you up when you're trying to get the thing in correct tune.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 01:32 PM
Boy the name for MSD is so right on. Today I ordered a new distibutor. I made a mistake when installing a new pickup. I used a metal feeler gauge.even thought the distributor is on one year old. I now will carry all backups for all my MSD system. I know that is drastic, but needed. Now it make double think the new MSD EFI I was going to put on and already own!
No vacuum leaks.
I was driving a 60 MPH when this all happened. If the new distributor doesn't solve the idle and hard starting then I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pull the timing cover. I think it was either the timing chain slipped or the MSD system flipped out.
I'm also going to pull the oil pump gear and look at the brass bushing and the bottom of the gear.
Still thinking its the time chain or the sprocket slipped the key. Wouldn't that explain why it dies when I try to get it down to 16 degrees on the dampener and runs better at 20 and above?
If it did slip what degree of timing chain would one tooth cause and which way would it cause the problem, retarding or advancing?
Posted By: 58pwrwgn
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/04/13 02:43 PM
The water pump on my 3.9 started leaking. I decided to change the chain since I was in there. I just put the parts store chain in there. It perked up the engine for a very sort time, then about 10000 miles I let off the gas at 60 mph to come to a stop and it died. I turned the key and it spun over like an engine with a broken timing belt. When I ripped it apart all the teeth on the upper cast iron gear were stripped. Plus I bent the valves.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 12:15 AM
Well I have been trying everything. The timing cover is coming off to look at the chain.
Make sure I do this right. I put it on TDC of #6 on the compression stroke. The should line the two dots on the gears at 6 and 12 correct?
Also if I drain the radiator all the way down, with that also remove most of the engine block coolant so it doesn't spill all over when I remove the water pump?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 12:48 AM
Quote:
I put it on TDC of #6 on the compression stroke. The should line the two dots on the gears at 6 and 12 correct?
Also if I drain the radiator all the way down, with that also remove most of the engine block coolant so it doesn't spill all over when I remove the water pump?
(1) correct (2) take out the block drain plugs to get the level further down.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 01:22 AM
Do I have too take out the block drains. The headers are in the way. I suppose I can drop both headers if you think just draining the radiator won't take care of it?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 01:43 AM
Draining the rad will actually only lower it to the bottom of the (2) 1" main cooling holes where the coolant enters the front of the block. The coolant will be in effect at the top edge of a dam & any slight jostling will kick some over & contaminate the oil. I agree headers are a pain. I'd think you could get by with out touching them (but you're there & I ain't) just get a box wrench on the hex plugs & if they're tight a hard jerk or tap with a hammer is better than a steady pull for breaking them loose.
Posted By: buildanother
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 06:13 AM
I've drained just radiator in the past, then jacked rear of car pretty high with rad petcock still open, to get more coolant out of the block. THen when it's done draining, you let rear back down. Still can pee a bit out once you loosen pump and timing cover.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/14/13 05:11 PM
That sounds a LOT easier than taking off headers!
R.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/16/13 02:45 AM
Ya that does sound easier. To late. I just dumped about a half gallon all over me and the floor. Didn't expect that much. I've only done one side done so far. I assume I have to do both sides?
Besides I'm now thinking about putting pet clocks in each one for the future draining. Has anyone done that, and what are the pros and cons?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/16/13 03:15 AM
Quote:
I assume I have to do both sides?
Besides I'm now thinking about putting pet clocks in each one for the future draining. Has anyone done that, and what are the pros and cons?
(1) each side is pretty much a mirror image of the other side so yes drain it (2) the pro is easier draining but you rarely have to drain a block, Con, tighten em pretty good keeping in mind that they are brass not steel & use some sealer on the threads on the part that screws into the block & on the threads on the inner valve section to help keep it from ever vibrating undone but they tend to be reliable
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/16/13 10:51 AM
About the time you don't think you'll have to drain the block again, you will. I was thinking of putting blue lock tight on the valve threads.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/16/13 01:19 PM
Quote:
About the time you don't think you'll have to drain the block again, you will. I was thinking of putting blue lock tight on the valve threads.
(1) agreed (2) pipe dope on the outer NPT threads/blue loctite on the inner left hand threads. Always good to clean threads with a shot of brake kleen before adding loctite
Posted By: Oyvind Mopar
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/16/13 03:23 PM
You can drain the driver side block part by taking out the 2. lowest front bolt that holds the PS pump bracket. Take care to put the same bolt back in, as a too long bolt will screw right into the cylinder!
My
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/17/13 12:55 AM
I will drain the other side in the morning. I can see thru the dampener hole they didn't install the oil slinger. So I had to order one of those. I assume it will fit with an comp cam double roller chain? Once I get the cover off I will report back what I find.
I did pick up some nice 90 degree pet cocks for the engine drains for NAPA.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/17/13 03:25 PM
Good news bad news. The time chain hasn't slipped neither has the gears on the keys. I do have a new timing chain I'm going to go ahead and replace it anyhow. I see there's a missing cam thrust plate bolt with hole is missing all together and the oil slinger is missing as well. I have an old 318 in the garage, should I install the missing bolt with the hole for oiling the chain? Or will it do a better job without it?
So ther must have been another problem probably the MSD system. Typical!
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/17/13 08:20 PM
You can install the bolt with the hole (upper pass side) or drill a 1/8" hole in an existing bolt in that location and or use the angled drip tray that later SB's use or both. How much is the new oil slinger? I can get a good/clean/undented used one to your door for $8
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/17/13 08:25 PM
Do you recommend having that bolt in place? I assume they did that way so more oil got on the chain. I do have a oil slinger on the way. It will be on Monday. I also have access to the drip tray off my 318 out in the garage. But that too requires only 3 bolts being installed. Any thoughts on best path forward?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/17/13 08:43 PM
SB's do have chain longevity problems which I feel are lube issues but others strongly dissagree (& they may be right). The bolt with the hole only gives drip oil from the valley. I would use the bolt & the angled drip tray & the slinger (preferably mine
). There's even dissagreement as to whether it is actually an "oil slinger" to help lube the chain or if it is there to provide additional protection from front seal leakage which as Ma knew would generate a horde of comebacks. You do go from 4 to 3 bolts by using the drip tray but no reported problems from that. You can even drill a 1/8" hole in the other top bolt on the DR side for more splash. Short answer: use both (all three) if you got em handy (4 if you drill the other bolt).
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/18/13 03:19 PM
Good idea RapidRobert!
I'm going to try and get all 4 bolts in. Two top drilled and the drip plate installed.
I did a fit test with the cam gear and I'm not getting the clearence of .002-.008 between the cam gear and the thrust plate. Do you put a screw driver back there and pull then check? The thrust plate isn't grooved. So I would have to assume they set that up with the original cam gear? Should I be concerned or just install it?
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/18/13 03:33 PM
Actually when I mentioned "all 4" I was thinking of (1) the slinger (2) the drip tray (3) the pass bolt drilled & (4) drilling the dr bolt. A person could cut the tang off of the drip tray that sets in the bolt hole & use a (4th) bolt & an oversize washer to secure it all but I've never seen one come loose. No opinion on the cam end play as I'm embarrassed to admit that I have never checked it as it has always (until now) slipped my mind
EDIT there must be a reason the want SOME (.002-.008") clearance there. I would continue to work with it & not button it up till we find out for sure. See if you can get some clearance, 2-8 tho ain't much
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/18/13 09:54 PM
I'm a little confused on this point. I don't think the other cam gear had clearence, but I never checked. I can't seam to get any clearence. Should it be that hard to move the cam in and out. Maybe I'm not getting something. Looks like the cam gear will be up against thrust plate. The part will be tomorrow and I want this thing together but don't want to damage it. If you don't have the clearence how to you get the clearence? Why would installing a new timing chain set change the clearence? Would it be the thickness of the cam gear?
Posted By: buildanother
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/18/13 11:05 PM
Might be hard to grab the cam gear and move it in and out a hair, because the valvetrain is still in place at this point, correct? If the rocker shafts are sitting on the bench, then there should be no load on cam enough that you can't slide it away from the block. a little.
Posted By: dnd0001
Re: Timing chain slip - 08/18/13 11:53 PM
Ya it's fully assembled. Should I have to worry about the end play if all I'm doing is installing a new timing chain/gears. The engine build only has 1500 miles on it. Thought it jumped a tooth. As long as I was in there checking the timing chain I figured I would replace it with a pre stretched comp cam setup.