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4 speed trans help: Determining condition? w/pics

Posted By: autoxcuda

4 speed trans help: Determining condition? w/pics - 10/22/12 12:12 AM

Just got my hands on a bare A-body 4 speed.

It appears pretty good. Just wondering if someone can give there expert opinion on gear, syncro, and shift fork conditon.

Also I'm trying to determin the trans ratio.
The trans codes/dates:
4B2545 = 1974 Hamtramck
PPA8334557 = A883 built on Friday, January 18, 1974







Please click attachment to see gears and syncro ring teeth shape

Attached picture 7430173-FF12ParstBoughtSm04.JPG
Posted By: Headhunter22

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 12:16 AM

For information on ratios, ..etc I would nose around Brewers website. He's a sponser here and also has some really good information on his website.

For ratios, I think this would answer your questions hopefully. On the parts, I'm sure others with more experience will chime in. Good luck. web page

Steve
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 12:31 AM

Quote:

For information on ratios, ..etc I would nose around Brewers website. He's a sponser here and also has some really good information on his website.

For ratios, I think this would answer your questions hopefully. On the parts, I'm sure others with more experience will chime in. Good luck. web page

Steve



Looked around that site and Passon all last night and today. But didn't think of getting info from the ordering page.

My Main Shaft gears have three cuts/indents on edge of the teeth. And the cluster gear has three cuts in it. Just like this one they list as a 2.47 gear set.

So does this mean I have a 2.47 gear set.

They match these pictures on the Brewers site:



Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 12:48 AM

What condition are these gears and synro rings?






Please click attachment to see picture magnified:



Attached picture 7430235-CopyofIMG_7789.JPG
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 12:59 AM

The clutching teeth on second and third look pretty beat-up to me.All you really need to do is count the drive teeth on the cluster and post what you can count.If you let us know the tooth counts we can tell you what ratio you have.
Gus

Attached picture 7430249-savoyburnout.jpg
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:17 AM

Quote:

The clutching teeth on second and third look pretty beat-up to me.All you really need to do is count the drive teeth on the cluster and post what you can count.If you let us know the tooth counts we can tell you what ratio you have.
Gus



Will do
.
.
.
With illustration

Tooth counts:

Attached picture 7430282-FF12ParstBoughtSm03GearTeethCounts.JPG
Posted By: dulcich

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:35 AM

Quote:

The clutching teeth on second and third look pretty beat-up to me.All you really need to do is count the drive teeth on the cluster and post what you can count.If you let us know the tooth counts we can tell you what ratio you have.
Gus



It looks to be in good condition to me.
Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:38 AM

I have to agree, I haven't seen A833 teeth that nice for probably decades now.

Sheldon
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:47 AM

Ok, I was looking at the Mopar Performance Chassis manual page 119 figure 6-13. I've looked at it about 5-6 times since last night and I think I finally figured it out.

Note: It would have been a lot easier if MP would have just put a line between the main and cluster teeth counts to signify divided by. You no, since that is how they do it in mathematics.

MP must have been trying to save ink.

1st gear ratio=

(35/17) x (30/25) = 2.47

2nd gear ratio=

(34/23) x (30/25) = 1.77

3rdd gear ratio=

(29/26) x (30/25) = 1.39

.
.
.
.
Am I correct on this?

Do I get a happy face sticker?!
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:54 AM

Quote:


BULL!!! It looks to be in exceptionally good condition to me.



Quote:

I have to agree, I haven't seen A833 teeth that nice for probably decades now.

Sheldon



Really?!?

Oh my, I'm blushing and all flustered

Edit: Ok been downgraded to "good" condition.

I feel better that it seems to be a decent deal for the $250 I paid for it. I actually wanted the close ratio gearset for Road Course track days. I think most people prefer the 2.66 1st's?
Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 01:59 AM

Is it a cast iron case or Aluminimum? I cant remember when they quit using the 833 and went to the 0D833.. The little teeth that match to the little teeth on the syncros are what you need to look for. If they are runded they need replaced. If the hace clean edges they are good to go.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 02:05 AM

Quote:

Is it a cast iron case or Aluminimum? I cant remember when they quit using the 833 and went to the 0D833.. The little teeth that match to the little teeth on the syncros are what you need to look for. If they are runded they need replaced. If the hace clean edges they are good to go.



It's an iron case. I think by my gear counts, it's a close ratio 2.47/1.77/1.34/1.00 gears ??

What does excellent, acceptable, and bad rounded teeth look like?

Do I need better pictures of the teeth??
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 02:17 AM

Quote:

The clutching teeth on second and third look pretty beat-up to me.All you really need to do is count the drive teeth on the cluster and post what you can count.If you let us know the tooth counts we can tell you what ratio you have.
Gus



Better pics of the 3rd clutching teeth.

What shape is missing or worn? Are they too rounded off on the gear teeth? And/or brass syncro teeth?





Attached picture 7430392-IMG_7828.JPG
Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 03:54 AM

They are a bit worn alright, new ones come to a point. Some of those are good and some are rounded. Not terrible but not new either. The brass synchro ring has been changed for sure.

Sheldon
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 03:58 AM

Hears one shift fork:

This side looks ok:

Attached picture 7430564-IMG_7781.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 04:04 AM

Other side with different angle

click attachement to magnify



Attached picture 7430574-IMG_7785.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 04:08 AM

Next shift fork

Good side

Attached picture 7430578-IMG_7792.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 04:09 AM

Not so good side

Click attachement to magnify:

Attached picture 7430581-IMG_7794.JPG
Posted By: dulcich

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 04:58 PM

I think Gus might have been right all along. It's hard to tell from those shots but if the dog teeth on the gears are rounded off and worn, you are going to need new gears.
-dulcich
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 05:13 PM

Quote:

I think Gus might have been right all along. It's hard to tell from those shots but if the dog teeth on the gears are rounded off and worn, you are going to need new gears.
-dulcich



I'm trying to work up a good picture. Would be nice to know just how pointed they are supposed to look. I can't find a good picture of even a new one to reference to.
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 05:25 PM

The dog teeth can be fixed if they are worn, BUT I have used many that others thought were worn out. I'd be very tempted to put it in and run it, but ONLY if you have your other car road worthy (then again, I wouldn't do the swap with a fresh trans if you didn't have the other car on the road).
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 05:37 PM

Trying to learn here and get a feel for what I am looking at and looking for in the future. I bet I'm not alone.

4th gear is on top in this picture. I brake cleaned some of the teeth. It seems in the pictures when you look at the teeth that are straight up to the camera they look more pointed. But when you look at them in an angle from the camera they look more rounded.

How would you rate these THREE cleaned off dog teeth on top that are front and center?

The 4th gear has some light pitting on some gear teeth. Acceptable, not a big deal, or bad?

click attachment to magnify.

Attached picture 7431034-IMG_7831.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 06:05 PM

Is the hard angle at the bottom of the teeth here supposed to continue all the way to the top of the teeth?

Attached picture 7431055-IMG_7831withNotes.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/22/12 09:28 PM

???
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 03:32 AM

Quote:

I think Gus might have been right all along. It's hard to tell from those shots but if the dog teeth on the gears are rounded off and worn, you are going to need new gears.
-dulcich


Why would you question a guy with "fourgear" in his title
The gears would probably work but high speed power shifts would be a challenge for sure
The teeth should look like the roof of a house with a point at the top not too rounded off.The brass is always replaced in my rebuilds so it's condition is of no concern.The shift forks are OK but I would chop off the nub and install them in a good ball/detent cover from an early 833.
Gus

Attached picture 7431718-mysavoy.jpg
Posted By: 340SHORTY

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 03:32 AM

None of those teeth look good enough to reuse that gear IMO. They should have nice clean edges.. Get a new syncro ring and compare them. The gear mesh teeth should look like the new syncro teeth..
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 03:48 AM

This photo might still be too big but it shows the points you are looking for in a used trans.This is a HEMI box I did for a member on this board.

Attached picture 7431739-IMG_0027.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 04:22 AM

Quote:

This photo might still be too big but it shows the points you are looking for in a used trans.This is a HEMI box I did for a member on this board.



Thank you.

Not too small at all. Could be even bigger. It's tough to get a good macro focus in the pictures I took.

So....

What I was guessing was right. the point at the base of the clutching teeth is susposed to go all the way to the top. There is not another top cut to the teeth.

When I look at your picture I notice the 4 gear teeth are the most worn of all four. Still very nice and better that what I have, but am I analyzing that correct?

I your picture are any of those gears brand new? Obviously the brass syncros are all new since you got paid to rebuild it.

What's the advantage of the ball detent cover plate?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 04:28 AM

Quote:

....The shift forks are OK but I would chop off the nub and install them in a good ball/detent cover from an early 833.
Gus



Is this gouge ok?

Attached picture 7431802-IMG_7784.JPG
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 09:21 AM

I went through a close ratio trans like that back in 2010. It was a 1973. My gears were a lot nicer than that and it would crunch doing a powershift into 3rd before I took it out of the car.

Gears are actually more expensive for that trans than the early wide ratio trans of the muscle era.

I got a couple decent used and new gears from "Paul" at Liberty Gears. A very nice guy to deal with.

You might be able to polish/deburr that shift fork and reuse it. There are some shops, I've heard, that will plate forks to tighen up clearances. Probably not cheap.

Converting to the earlier style forks/cover is probably a better idea, as mentioned.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 11:53 AM

the easiest way for me to figure out gear ratios, is to put it into gear, and start turning the input shaft. count how many times you have to turn the input, to get 1 full rotation of the output. mark them with a sharpie to help you determine.
Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 12:18 PM

I have been taught by guys who rebuild gear boxes everyday that you should disassemble the tranny and clean all the oil off and then glass bead them clean. Then you can make acurate assement of the condition of the gears. The picture someone posted from Brewers site shows the gears after bead blasting.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 06:59 PM

Put it in a crate and ship it to Passon. It sounds like you are going to do some serious driving with that box.
Better to fix it now than to sweep up the pieces later.
R.
Posted By: Pntastar69

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 10:54 PM

Quote:

Put it in a crate and ship it to Passon. It sounds like you are going to do some serious driving with that box.
Better to fix it now than to sweep up the pieces later.
R.



Ditto.
I disassembled mine and degreased everything and took all of the internals to Jamie Passon. He hooked me up w/a rebuild kit and other parts needed and gave instruction tips on the rebuild/assembly. 3 years later, still works like a charm.
Posted By: Theorio1025

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 11:43 PM

+1 on Jamie Passon. He walked me through diagnosing and repairing my 833. Great customer service.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/23/12 11:50 PM

I'm just a little too far away to drop by Pennsylvania to his shop.

Looks like he cuts/files the clutching teeth down to get the point/triangle back again. But tough to see in the picture on his website of reconditioned gears.
Posted By: Cuda340

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 03:11 PM

Quote:

I'm just a little too far away to drop by Pennsylvania to his shop.

Looks like he cuts/files the clutching teeth down to get the point/triangle back again. But tough to see in the picture on his website of reconditioned gears.



Yes you can re-dress the clutching teeth back to original shape if they are not too bad...
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

....The shift forks are OK but I would chop off the nub and install them in a good ball/detent cover from an early 833.
Gus



Is this gouge ok?



If it were my tranny i'd get new forks

another vote for Jamie Passon - you could email him the pix and get some more feedback
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 05:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

....The shift forks are OK but I would chop off the nub and install them in a good ball/detent cover from an early 833.
Gus



Is this gouge ok?



If it were my tranny i'd get new forks

another vote for Jamie Passon - you could email him the pix and get some more feedback

Those are the stock steel forks, I would use them I did a older 2.66 box for a customer several years back, I sent his gears to Liberty to have them replace the engagemnet teeth ring,and they converted them to Pro Shift I called them back and ask why did they do that instead of replacing the rings with stock ones, thier explanation was that stock ones aren't availble. I had told them that this box was a street box, not a race box He siad put it together and drive it and then call them back, it would work fine It DID
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 06:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm just a little too far away to drop by Pennsylvania to his shop.

Looks like he cuts/files the clutching teeth down to get the point/triangle back again. But tough to see in the picture on his website of reconditioned gears.



Yes you can re-dress the clutching teeth back to original shape if they are not too bad...



Best way, procedure, and tools needed to do this?

Any pictures of someone doing this?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 06:59 PM


Quote:

Those are the stock steel forks, I would use them



Would/should you file down the gouge? Is a thinner cross section there going to create some looseness somewhere?

Quote:

I did a older 2.66 box for a customer several years back, I sent his gears to Liberty to have them replace the engagemnet teeth ring,and they converted them to Pro Shift I called them back and ask why did they do that instead of replacing the rings with stock ones, thier explanation was that stock ones aren't availble. I had told them that this box was a street box, not a race box He siad put it together and drive it and then call them back, it would work fine It DID



The clutching teeth are part of the gear, correct? So does liberty have a way of putting new teeth on it or do they modify the old teeth?
Posted By: Pntastar69

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/24/12 07:38 PM

I would contact Jamie and ask if you could ship the parts to him for inspection, minus the case and tailshaft of course. Replace what it needs and install it, once and done .
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/25/12 02:43 AM

Quote:


Quote:

Those are the stock steel forks, I would use them



Would/should you file down the gouge? Is a thinner cross section there going to create some looseness somewhere?

Quote:

I did a older 2.66 box for a customer several years back, I sent his gears to Liberty to have them replace the engagemnet teeth ring,and they converted them to Pro Shift I called them back and ask why did they do that instead of replacing the rings with stock ones, thier explanation was that stock ones aren't availble. I had told them that this box was a street box, not a race box He siad put it together and drive it and then call them back, it would work fine It DID



The clutching teeth are part of the gear, correct? So does liberty have a way of putting new teeth on it or do they modify the old teeth?

I would not touch the forks, it(the slider) will ride on the high parts Liberty cuts the ring that the small steel teeth are on off and welds a new ring on the old gear with the bigger pro shifted lugs on them I don't have any pictures of the pro shifted lugs but theyr'e no where near looking like the stock factory gears look Maybe someone else can type a link in on here showing the pro shifted lugs and the faceplated gears together
Posted By: JamiePasson

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/25/12 02:26 PM

Forks look womped. The synchro teeth on the speed gears are nothing to write home to mom about either. Input doesn't look horrible. One thing no one is considering is wear on the coast side of the synchro teeth. I cannot tell you how many gears we have canned with PERFECT points that popped out of gear because the coast side of the teeth are worn so bad. Put them in a box and send them over. I will gladly look at the stuff for no charge and get you headed in the right direction. By the way, it IS a 2.47 ratio unit. I am very hesitant to diagnose synchro teeth by a digital picture of an oily dirty gear. You just cannot see the detail needed.
Let me know if you need help.
Jamie
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/26/12 03:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm just a little too far away to drop by Pennsylvania to his shop.

Looks like he cuts/files the clutching teeth down to get the point/triangle back again. But tough to see in the picture on his website of reconditioned gears.



Yes you can re-dress the clutching teeth back to original shape if they are not too bad...



I've seen worse , I use a dremel with a small stone and put the points back and smooth down the chips , it they are real bad you can send just the gears to Passon , Brewer or Liberty ...

I'm with Jamie on the forks , the person that put the most miles on that trans did it with his hand resting on the shifter. One MIGHT be able to dress those flat and smooth again and not weaken them too much .
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/27/12 03:18 AM

Quote:

By the way, it IS a 2.47 ratio unit.
Jamie



Yep, as told to me by Paul at Liberty Gear, the 3 linear cuts on the tips of the gearteeth are for the assembly line worker to be able to quickly identify that ratio for assemby.

That's what mine checked out as.
Posted By: JamiePasson

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/29/12 04:03 AM

Actually, the grooves were for the parts guys pulling and dealers ordering parts. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios were not built at the same time in the factory. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios have the same tooth counts for second and third gear. But don't listen to me, I don't know what I am talking about.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/29/12 04:15 AM

Quote:

Actually, the grooves were for the parts guys pulling and dealers ordering parts. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios were not built at the same time in the factory. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios have the same tooth counts for second and third gear. But don't listen to me, I don't know what I am talking about.



So are the 2nd and 3rd mainshaft gears interchangable between 2.66 and 2.47 trans'?
Posted By: Dan Brewer

Re: 4 speed trans: Condition and determining gearsets? - 10/29/12 02:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, the grooves were for the parts guys pulling and dealers ordering parts. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios were not built at the same time in the factory. The 2.66 and 2.47 ratios have the same tooth counts for second and third gear. But don't listen to me, I don't know what I am talking about.



So are the 2nd and 3rd mainshaft gears interchangable between 2.66 and 2.47 trans'?


NO.
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