Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!!

Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:31 AM

We dyno'd the 408 when it was built. Everything fine. Brought it home, installed damper, input shaft bushing and new clutch w/ new flywheel bolts. Now that the motor is painted & in the car, I can't turn the crank by hand OR with starter.

I have gone as far as to disconnect 4 speed trans with the thought that shaft was in a bind, but it still won't turn.

Could it be that I installed the damper incorrectly or damaged something?? Could it be something with the flywheel bolts (too long?)?I was trying to set it to TDC so I could fire it up for the first time, and somehow the car ended up in pieces and my day went to hell.

This motor isn't budging at all. What is stopping my crank from turning?!?

Posted By: hemi71x

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:39 AM

A bolt too long holding the flywheel, to the back of the crankshaft?
Can you turn it any direction?

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:41 AM

It won't turn either direction.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:42 AM

What damper was on the engine when it was on the dyno? Is the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate all new? Any chance the flywheel binds in the bellhousing? How about the bolts mounting the crank pulley?

Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:47 AM

Flywheel to crank bolts are too long is the most probable cause.

Sheldon

Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:56 AM

Remove the flywheel first, then the damper...

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 05:03 AM

the balancer can't really hold it, so I'd bet on flywheel bolts also. There is not alot of extra room there.

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 05:09 AM

Quote:

the balancer can't really hold it, so I'd bet on flywheel bolts also. There is not alot of extra room there.

This is what I'm thinking now... the replacement of the bolts didn't occur to me until I started this thread, but the reason they were replaced is the builder lost the originals. I bet this is the reason. I'll dig in tomorrow.

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 05:43 AM

Quote:

What damper was on the engine when it was on the dyno? Is the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate all new? Any chance the flywheel binds in the bellhousing? How about the bolts mounting the crank pulley?

Thinking back... I think this damper was actually used in this last build, so that's not it (though I did add a different crank pulley. so I'll recheck that before I do anything).

Flywheel is the same, but the clutch/plate are new to this car.... under 400 miles, like new - leftover from another one of my cars. Flywheel clears the bell housing fine.

Thanks y'all!

Posted By: SNK-EYZ

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 06:07 AM

Make sure that the crank pulley bolts aren't too long and hitting the timing cover at the front seal.

I way going through my timing covers looking for one to clean up when I saw one the looked like the crank pulley bolts were tightened in to it (that or puller bolts were twisted into it).

Definitely check the flywheel bolts.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 06:26 AM

Typically the starter or a socket & breaker bar would cause long bolts attaching the pulley to chew up the timing cover but the engine would still turn & start/run..... So i agree probably the flywheel bolts are to long... You should be able to see that fairly well with the clutch cover removed you can see the crank flange & the rear main bearing/seal retainer cap...

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 08:36 AM

Well, I can see the flange/bolts with the inspection cover removed and it doesn't seem the bolts are too long. They just barely make it through the flange.

The crank pulley bolts are short, so that can't be it either. Again, the trans is unbolted and pulled back to where the splines are not in the clutch anymore and this has been isolated to the motor. I don't want to pull the trans out, because it will require the removal of my AAR exhaust (pain in the butt), as well as the driveshaft loop, which is bolted to the body of the car.... just a bunch of reinstall headaches which seem unnecessary.

I can't really remember clearly, its been so long, but I may have removed the damper for painting... Would it be possible for me to have overtightened the damper to the point where it could be causing this? Long shot, but what about the distributor gear? Could I have jammed that with a careless install? If so, would it jam the motor up like this?

Other than that, I don't see what could possibly be causing this. It is REALLY stuck!

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 08:42 AM

The damper shouldn't be able to lock the engine... Well the part that goes through the cover & the bolt going into the crank shouldn't... If anything is contacting the damper outside the cover it's possible.... Good luck, this sucks..

Posted By: VL21

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 10:44 AM

OK, perhaps this is a long shot, but is it possible the pressure plate cover is against the bell housing? Taller, installed before the bell?
I did this once long ago, but on something else...using a non stock set up...?

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 12:22 PM

Pull the spark plugs...

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 01:37 PM

Quote:

I can't really remember clearly, its been so long, but I may have removed the damper for painting... Would it be possible for me to have overtightened the damper to the point where it could be causing this? Long shot, but what about the distributor gear? Could I have jammed that with a careless install? If so, would it jam the motor up like this?

Dampner being too tight wouldn't cause this , I'd start pulling off things that may cause the issue , pulley bolts , pop out the distributor , I had a pontiac iron duke that the roll pin holding the drive gear on can out and lockup up the cam , it sheared the key off that held the cam gear in place , if the pin that holds the drive gear to the oil pump shaft spit out for some reason it could lock up the motor.

Posted By: mopar97

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 01:55 PM

Quote:

Pull the spark plugs...

In the past I have had an engine fill one cylinder with gas while on a long trip. It is possible the carb needle leaked (bouncing) and filled a cylinder that had the intake valve open with fuel. Hard to compress a liquid? With everything you have checked so far that would be my next step....
Hopefully that helps.
Allen

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 03:36 PM

When I was stabbing the 4 speed while the motor was on a dolly, about to go into the car.... I tapped the end of the trans a few times with a 2.5 lb hammer. It was stuck with about a half inch left and I couldn't wrestle it in anymore (thought it was just a tight new bushing).

Could that have damaged a bearing in the motor??

Posted By: buildanother

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 03:41 PM

If you damaged the pilot bushing-bearing, it would still let engine turn. An engine thrust bearing is a tough piece that should not be your problem. When you say it won't budge, do you mean it is locked tight in either direction?

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 03:53 PM

Quote:

Pull the spark plugs...

Called the builder and this is what he said. I can fathom that water might have gotten behind the tape I used when pressure washing before painting.... I bet this works.

He said hammering the trans in wouldn't likely hurt anything.

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 03:54 PM

Quote:

When you say it won't budge, do you mean it is locked tight in either direction?

Yep

Posted By: moparpollack

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 04:30 PM

I bet the rings are stuck. My 383 locked up from sitting. A machinist friend said there were race motors that needed to be reringed from sitting over the winter this year. Wouldn't turn over or run.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/30/12 05:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Pull the spark plugs...

Called the builder and this is what he said. I can fathom that water might have gotten behind the tape I used when pressure washing before painting.... I bet this works.

He said hammering the trans in wouldn't likely hurt anything .

It definitely won't help anything, don't do it again. Check all that before and after installing bushings, bearings and the like.

Posted By: LimelightCuda

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 01:16 AM

An interesting and scary problem. Have you made any progress?

Posted By: Yatzee

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 01:45 AM

I'm sure you paid a big buck to freshen this motor and don't really
want to do it twice. If there are no signs of binding when the tranny
is completely removed (motor supported on the rear), the plugs are pulled and the damper/pulley removed, you are in for some disassembly.
We all know that feeling when a washer or bolt can't be accounted for
and some rebuilders aren't as good as they claim. If it turned before
you installed it but doesn't now, most likely you caused the issue.
I could only speculate as to the problem but you'll find it when you
take things apart systematically but before you do remove the starter
first. Good luck fellow Mopar enthusiast!

Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 12:28 PM

Wait...he pressure washed a completed engine and had nothing but tape to block off the exhaust ports?

you NEED to pull the plugs! I'd pressure wash a bare casting, but I sure as heck would NEVER use a pressure washer on a completed engine! That's just the lazy way out, he should have used oil, grease, wax remover heck put it in a squirt bottle to apply it all over the surface then use a rag to wipe it down

I would say that even if there's no water in a hole, it's very likely that moisture got into the engine, and the rings are rusted to the cylinder wall. I hope for your sake that's not the problem though, because if it is...time to rebuild the motor!

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 02:44 PM

Quote:

Wait...he pressure washed a completed engine and had nothing but tape to block off the exhaust ports?

you NEED to pull the plugs! I'd pressure wash a bare casting, but I sure as heck would NEVER use a pressure washer on a completed engine! That's just the lazy way out, he should have used oil, grease, wax remover heck put it in a squirt bottle to apply it all over the surface then use a rag to wipe it down

I would say that even if there's no water in a hole, it's very likely that moisture got into the engine, and the rings are rusted to the cylinder wall. I hope for your sake that's not the problem though, because if it is...time to rebuild the motor!

A friend of mine did the same thing to a rebuilt 440.....motor was junk after it started, bent a rod due to water in a cylinder, another friend sandblasted a motor after assembly for "paint adhesion"....he didn't know he blasted sand into the exhaust ports even though the manifolds were on...

Why people sandblast/glassbead or steamclean engines/componets after rebuild/assembly I don't know, it's beyond me, that's the first procedure before rebuild, i hope that's not the case for the OP, If he's exhausted every effort at looking for bind from the flywheel to the dampner/pulley, and hasn't found it, chances are rusted rings, or hydrostatic lock

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 02:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wait...he pressure washed a completed engine and had nothing but tape to block off the exhaust ports?

you NEED to pull the plugs! I'd pressure wash a bare casting, but I sure as heck would NEVER use a pressure washer on a completed engine! That's just the lazy way out, he should have used oil, grease, wax remover heck put it in a squirt bottle to apply it all over the surface then use a rag to wipe it down

I would say that even if there's no water in a hole, it's very likely that moisture got into the engine, and the rings are rusted to the cylinder wall. I hope for your sake that's not the problem though, because if it is...time to rebuild the motor!

A friend of mine did the same thing to a rebuilt 440.....motor was junk after it started, bent a rod due to water in a cylinder, another friend sandblasted a motor after assembly for "paint adhesion"....he didn't know he blasted sand into the exhaust ports even though the manifolds were on ...

Why people sandblast/glassbead or steamclean engines/componets after rebuild/assembly I don't know, it's beyond me, that's the first procedure before rebuild, i hope that's not the case for the OP, If he's exhausted every effort at looking for bind from the flywheel to the dampner/pulley, and hasn't found it, chances are rusted rings, or hydrostatic lock

Those little cheap blasters that hit the market years ago have done more harm than good in a lot of cases. The thinking that I'll paint it when I get the whole thing blasted never happened because he never got it completely blasted! Now it's ruster now than before.
I love when someone asks me to bead blast there intake manifold, I do them a huge favor and not do it for them. Do you think you will ever get all the sand out? especially in the heat riser areas.

My blocks always got either hot tanked or a serious steam pressure washing and paint before it even got bolted to the engine stand for assembly.

Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 07:15 PM

Step back and breathe Think? Antifreeze will lock a motor solid Any chance that the engine had a unknown anti freeze leak that hit the rings/ pistons? Try the plug out blow out cylinders with compressed air andbe sure you don't have a hydro lock

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 09:40 PM

Yeah, I did pressure wash the motor, but I had it buttoned up pretty good and stayed away from the no-no areas... I just mentioned it because I don't want to leave anything out.

I drained the oil last night and saw nothing at all out of the ordinary, but I didn't expect to. I saved the oil just in case I need it.

I should have been turning the crank every so often, but I never thought to because I'm always "close" to finishing the car... its been "close" for almost 2 years due to various reasons mostly outside my control.

At this point I am thinking the likely culprit is a rusted ring (or more). I know rust can form with any amount of water, but I am certain I didn't get A LOT of water in the motor. If there is rust, will it hurt the motor if I break it free? If I do break it free, how could I tell if there was a rust problem without removing the heads?

Would removing the oil pan for inspection do me any good here?

I spent a lot of time putting a show quality paint job on the motor, so no, I didn't take the lazy way out! I was just trying to get the best adhesion possible (especially with these Aluminum heads). I used degreaser, etc FYI. Breaking down the engine is going to kill me, all things considered... It will of course need to be stripped and repainted... not to mention removal and install.... and I am just exhausted with working on this car at this point. Don't mean to complain, but I am just DONE mentally.

Attached picture 7315376-DSC02068.JPG

Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 07/31/12 10:12 PM

Rust sounds most likely to me too.

I won't echo the "you shouldn't have used the pressure washer" comments because I'm sure you won't again.

I hear you when you say you're mentally done, I've been there more than once with my car.

My engine sat for almost 5yrs between the time it was built and when it was first fired. I put 30w oil in the cylinders and rotated it by hand 3 or 4 times and it was fine.

best of luck Steve and let us know how you make out.

Dave

Posted By: hemi68charger

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 08/01/12 12:14 AM

Steve..
Wish you luck on getting it squared away..... I'll give ya a call.....

Troy

Posted By: PAINT IT BLACK

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 08/01/12 12:16 AM

Great news... I broke it free. I squirted some liquid wrench down in there and let it sit a couple hours. It freed up with just a 1/2" drive ratchet and not a lot of arm. The crank spins smoothly now after a few spins, though I made a nice little mess with the penetrant and Marvel oil. Small price I suppose.

I called my builder, and he said all things considered, I should just put it back together and run it. I'll just watch for smoke, oil/pressure loss, etc... He thinks it will be fine.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Newly built motor won't budge. HELP!!! - 08/01/12 03:29 AM

I think you will be fine too.