School me on roller lifters

Posted By: RoadRunner

School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 12:18 AM

I always used flat tapper hydraulic lifters, but with the lack of Zn in today's oils, I was thinking about going to rollers. Are there roller lifters that can be used on old 440 and 383 blocks (1968 and 1969 motors)? What do I need to look out for going with rollers? Thanks all.

Posted By: Darryls-Demon

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 12:44 AM

Ok here is my two cents, you need to also use very good valve springs rockerarms and pushrods with solid roller lifters. As far as the brand lifter I like Crower or Isky.
I have two street cars with solid roller cams and so far I really like them.

Posted By: RoadRunner

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 01:12 AM

I just reserved a copy of Andy F's big block book too. Two years ago I put a 440 with 9.5:1 cr so I could run pump gas. But it bent push rods on intake on cylinder 3. Last bend wiped cam on that lobe. So now I am looking at building yet another engine. I usually bring the car to the nationals but not this year. So now I'm looking at options for new bullet.

Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 04:54 AM

Build it right and you can get away with 11:1 on pump gas.. no problem.

Rollar lifters.. theres not much to know. Less friction, less cam wear, mucho more expensive to retrofit into a BBD.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 02:44 PM

Quote:

Are there roller lifters that can be used on old 440 and 383 blocks

Yes, too many !!!

Quote:

Rollar lifters.. theres not much to know

Probably the biggest understatement I've heard in years !!!

Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 04:01 PM

Quote:

Probably the biggest understatement I've heard in years !!!

Really.. how so? Its just a normal lifter with a wHeel & guides attached. All one needs is the associated equipment that goes along with it. Like shorter pushrods, roller cam (obviously), billet distributer gear, and pay alot $$$ to your favorite hotrod store.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 04:38 PM

Quote:

Really.. how so? Its just a normal lifter with a wHeel & guides attached.

Style of lifter - solid body or banded.
Pushrod oiling or not.
Pressurized oil to the roller or not.
Where the oil holes are located relative to the oil galleys.
Roller wheel shrouded (non-bushed block) or unshrouded (bushed block). Roller wheel size (to take advantage or the large Mopar bore).
I've probably missed a few things!

Posted By: Twostick

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 04:43 PM

Quote:

I always used flat tapper hydraulic lifters, but with the lack of Zn in today's oils, I was thinking about going to rollers. Are there roller lifters that can be used on old 440 and 383 blocks (1968 and 1969 motors)? What do I need to look out for going with rollers? Thanks all.

I would not even entertain the thought of a roller for a hydraulic type street build. Way too much $$$ for way too little benefit IMHO. Almost none of the aftermarket rollers are designed for long term use and by that I mean install them and don't go near them for 100,000 miles.

The simple solution for a flat tappet build is to run your favorite brand of 15w40 diesel oil and drive on. While all 15w40 oils have less zinc than they use to, they still have more than most passenger car oils ever had. If you really can't sleep at night, add a bottle of GM EOS or whatever equivalent zinc additive the cam companies are flogging.

90+% of cam lobe failures happen during break in and I would wager 99.9% of those were caused by the lifters not rotating. Very simple to check for. Before you put the intake back on, turn the engine over a couple of times and watch each lifter. If you find one that doesn't turn, swap it to another lobe. If it still won't turn, replace it.

Kevin

Posted By: mopar_leaner

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 04:51 PM

on a small you almost need to run a tube through the lifter oil galley to block off oil, but on a big block, more so than not, you can get away with doing less. I bought my crower cam .630 .645 off ebay with springs and retainers, for a mere $120 with shipping used, and got a used set of solid crane roller lifters at the swap meet for $125. I did have to buy a bronze dist. drive with was like $75. But let me tell you the combo I put together and ran it both on the street and at the track was unreal!!! roughly 600 hp

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 05:01 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I always used flat tapper hydraulic lifters, but with the lack of Zn in today's oils, I was thinking about going to rollers. Are there roller lifters that can be used on old 440 and 383 blocks (1968 and 1969 motors)? What do I need to look out for going with rollers? Thanks all.

I would not even entertain the thought of a roller for a hydraulic type street build. Way too much $$$ for way too little benefit IMHO. Almost none of the aftermarket rollers are designed for long term use and by that I mean install them and don't go near them for 100,000 miles.

The simple solution for a flat tappet build is to run your favorite brand of 15w40 diesel oil and drive on. While all 15w40 oils have less zinc than they use to, they still have more than most passenger car oils ever had. If you really can't sleep at night, add a bottle of GM EOS or whatever equivalent zinc additive the cam companies are flogging.

90+% of cam lobe failures happen during break in and I would wager 99.9% of those were caused by the lifters not rotating. Very simple to check for. Before you put the intake back on, turn the engine over a couple of times and watch each lifter. If you find one that doesn't turn, swap it to another lobe. If it still won't turn, replace it.

Kevin

I guess I could agree with that, but I also think A lot of cam failures are from improper setup AKA wrong lash or preload. It's a very simple measurment, but seems like a lot people get it wrong? imo

Posted By: kdsmith07

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/15/12 11:19 PM

i have heard a few members mention andy f's bb book.is that the book to have?i have an older one by chuck senatore and was wondering if it's good also.TIA

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 02:35 AM

Quote:

i have heard a few members mention andy f's bb book.is that the book to have?i have an older one by chuck senatore and was wondering if it's good also.TIA

They are both good books. Really, this site is a great resource. Andy F often provides his input.

With any cam, the lobe profiles and required spring pressures are important when looking at durability.
A race cam will have very fast ramps and stiff valve springs and they are much harder on the valvetrain than a cam designed for a street car (and more expensive.)
My old engine had a solid roller street cam, that never gave me any problem at all. Valve lash never changed, and the bronze drive gear looked great after 10,000 miles. The solid roller race cam I'm using in the 500" stroker is hard on the valve train (and cylinder heads...), for added durability with that cam I am running $500/set valve springs, with Ti retainers (about $300), hardened 10-degree locks, lash caps, and spring cups (actually locates the inner spring.) so I probably have almost $1,000 in just the valve spring setup, not to mention $1,000 rocker arms, and $300 pushrods.
The Hydraulic roller in the 505" street car is milider, and easier on parts. The valve springs were only $150 /set, used regular Comp 10-degree steel retainers and locks, and 5/16" x 0.083" wall pushrods (still $200+/set.) The rockers are super cheap CAT 1.7:1 ratio stainless steel units (which is an experiment and gamble.) So far I only have about 100 miles on the engine, but no problems.

Posted By: Twostick

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 03:33 AM

Keep a close eye on those rockers. I had a set of similar type knock offs. Thank God for leaky valve cover gaskets. Found one rocker with one side of the arm broken and all the roller tips were loose on their axles.

Kevin

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 03:59 AM

So, is the concensus that roller lifters (regardless of being solid or hyd, or the brand used) won't last on an engine that will see over (roughly) 10,000 street miles?

Posted By: HemiRick

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 04:06 AM

Scott where did you get this idea? If you have a very large cam with very high pressure valve springs (over 700 lbs open), then yes this may be true. But otherwise this is NOT the case.

Roller lifters in large cam motors need to be periodically rebuilt. Other wise roller lifters are very reliable and long lasting. With ones with pressurized oil to the bearings, prolonged idling is not an issue.

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 07:40 AM

If it is designed for the street it should last a long time. The reason I used 10,000 miles is that is when my intake valve broke on the cylinder head so I had to repair the the engine. The cam and lifters were fine. I sold them at the swap meet to another guy building a street engine. The roller lifters were still good, but they can also be rebuilt. Just about all production engines that use lifters since the late 1980's are using hydraulic rollers.

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/16/12 07:55 AM

Quote:

Keep a close eye on those rockers. I had a set of similar type knock offs. Thank God for leaky valve cover gaskets. Found one rocker with one side of the arm broken and all the roller tips were loose on their axles.

Kevin

Will do. I got these on some closeout sale for $199. It they would have been more expensive, I doubt I would have bought them. I figured the stainless bodies and bronze bushings should be pretty durable with only around #375 open pressure? I think the roller tip just rolls on the pin, so I will check those out. I may change the valve covers or add better baffels to the stock covers because the PCV is picking up some oil. I think these rockers, or the 0.614" lift are throwing quite a bit of oil around inside the valve covers?

Posted By: fiddlerfingers

Re: School me on roller lifters - 07/20/12 07:06 PM

Check out MRLPerfomance.com for the latest in roller lifters. The lifters Mike is selling are made to hold up for the long haul. Mike engineered, designed and is manufacturing these lifters himself. Great price from a true MOPAR engine builder...