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Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types

Posted By: torqueaddict

Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 09:44 AM

I know there are like 4 different types of cams but know very little other than that I hear hydraulic rollers are very powerful and expensive. Is one type better for a street stroker or is t all preference?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 04:57 PM

Quote:

I know there are like 4 different types of cams but know very little other than that I hear hydraulic rollers are very powerful and expensive. Is one type better for a street stroker or is t all preference?

It's all preference and who you listen to I've used all four types in different motors over the years, if you decide to use a flat tappet, solid or hydraulic non roller, make sure and use a zinc additive in the oil every time you change oil. You also need to break those type of cams and lifters in correctly
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I know there are like 4 different types of cams but know very little other than that I hear hydraulic rollers are very powerful and expensive. Is one type better for a street stroker or is t all preference?

It's all preference and who you listen to I've used all four types in different motors over the years, if you decide to use a flat tappet, solid or hydraulic non roller, make sure and use a zinc additive in the oil every time you change oil. You also need to break those type of cams and lifters in correctly




So its not true to say a hydraulic roller makes more power than a flat tappet?
Posted By: Prince_Valiant

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 05:58 PM

Quote:

So its not true to say a hydraulic roller makes more power than a flat tappet?



In general, it goes like this in terms of power:
1. Solid Roller
2. Solid Flat-Tappet
3. Hyd Roller
4. Hyd Flat-tappet.

Your choice shouldn't be made though on a generic "what makes better power" choice...your cam should be selected for your components, goals, budget, etc.

For most people, a HYD flat-tappet cam is all you'll ever want or need. It's less expensive, requires less maintenance, plenty reliable, and can make more than enough power for most street and street/strip applications.

I've got a HYD roller simply because I used a magnum engine to start, and a roller cam is what it had.

Roller cams will generally make more power at a given "size" mostly because will a flat-tappet and HYD roller cam might be the same size in duration @ .050, the quicker ramps allowed by the roller allow the roller to be bigger at .100/.150/.200/.300/.400...particularly at the valve lifts where the heads really begin to flow. Throw on top of that that the aggressive ramps allow for more peak lift too...but really, it's what is "greater area under the curve". Basically the valves actuated by a roller cam can stay open higher for longer while still fitting within the same "@ .050" size.

If you're building a true street engine and budget doesn't matter, go with a HYD roller. But for most cases, it's not critically important, especially when cost is factored in.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 06:18 PM

A roller cam with the same specs as a flat tappet should make slightly more power from the reduced friction. Usually the roller cam allows faster ramp rates, and higher valve lift. Because the roller lifters are taller and heavier you will need custom length pushrods and posably stiffer valve springs, but that also depends on the RPM level. A roller cam also needs a way to locate the cam, like a thrust button. The small block wont need a thrust button because the cam plate and timing gear control the front/back cam movement. The down side is cost.
There are some very good flat tappet cams also, some with very aggressive ramp rates. The problem is the oil companies removed the zinc (ZDDP) from the oil because it could cause problems with the oxygen sensors on new cars. You can run an agressive flat tappet cam, but you need to use an oil additive or run "race" oil. Some say diesel oil also works, but it is also being changed quite a bit with the new oil specifications?
Some things that add additional protection to flat tappet cams are Nitriding the cam to make the lobes harder, and the EDM lifters that have a small oil hole on the bottom of the lifter (but I think the EDM is on solid flat tappet lifters, nit sure about hydraulic ones?)
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/14/12 09:56 PM

Anthony....just remember if you use any flat tappet cam ..you gotta use a zinc additive ,especially on break in..then go to synthetic like Royal Purple...etc...and the solid tappet cams will need to be checked for adjustment regularly...

Attached picture 7292495-057.JPG
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 12:13 AM

Quote:

Anthony....just remember if you use any flat tappet cam ..you gotta use a zinc additive ,especially on break in..then go to synthetic like Royal Purple...etc...and the solid tappet cams will need to be checked for adjustment regularly...




Ok I get that, right now I have a hyd flat tappet for my stroker, would a hydro roller perform better or do I just need a significantly more aggressive cam? I don't really want to over cam my car but don't want to leave to many horses on the table. I know I have to sacrifice in some area but I still would like over 500 horses an 600 torque. I hope my cam isn't to wimpy for that.
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 02:34 AM

Well a hyd roller kit will cost you ..$1100-$1500.with springs ,lifters,push rods and rockers..if you just need a stronger hyd cam ..just the custom grind cam alone should be around $ 175.00..just be sure you have the proper springs to match the cam..all depends on how deep your pockets are..
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 02:49 AM

Quote:

Well a hyd roller kit will cost you ..$1100-$1500.with springs ,lifters,push rods and rockers..if you just need a stronger hyd cam ..just the custom grind cam alone should be around $ 175.00..just be sure you have the proper springs to match the cam..all depends on how deep your pockets are..





So u think it might be a good idea to return what I have from lunati and get a custom grind cam? I really dont know what to even say what I want. Is there any way you could help me?
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 04:01 AM

Just tell the cam builder everything you have in the motor , the comp ratio, heads, intake ,carb etc,,the type and weight of the car ,,transmission , gear ratio..and how the car will be used .. track only, sometimes ,never, highway driving..etc..I personally like a cam made just for my car and my use.. your call

Attached picture 7292884-002.JPG
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 06:09 AM

For cost, my Comp XR286HR-10 cam was $333.92,
Hughes Hydraulic Rollers were $354.00, and Isky 8005A valve springs were $149.95. Total = 837.87.

A Comp XE flat tappet cam and lifter kit is $200, so the Hydraulic Roller cam and lifters are about $488 more expensive. The springs I used may be a bit more expensive too? The roller does use the 3-bolt timing set, but the cost of the timing set I used is the same. The roller does need a cam thrust button, Bronze oil pump drive gear, and bronze tip fuel pump pushrod. That's maybe another $100 to $150, so I would guess gound with the roller setup would cost about $600-$650 more than a flat tappet cam? On the other hand, I wiped a Flat tappet cam lobe on my 360, and ended up doing a complete re-hone, re-ring, new bearings, oil pump, gaskets, and a new cam and lifters. That when I found out that the oil specifications changed.
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 07:02 AM

Quote:

Just tell the cam builder everything you have in the motor , the comp ratio, heads, intake ,carb etc,,the type and weight of the car ,,transmission , gear ratio..and how the car will be used .. track only, sometimes ,never, highway driving..etc..I personally like a cam made just for my car and my use.. your call




I think I might have to give them a call on monday and see what they have to say. It might be beneficial.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 01:25 PM

Another consideration is the oil pump/distributor drive gear.

The gear on the cam and the gear on the drive are a "wear pair". On a flat tappet, the iron gear on the cam and the steel gear on the shaft wear well together as they have different hardness.

BB roller cams use a steel gear. It doesn't wear well with the steel gear on the shaft... the two gears tear each other up.

The fix is a bronze OP/distributor drive gear. The soft OP drive gear becomes a wear item with life as low as 3-5k miles depending on lots of factors. Besides cost, that's the big downside of a roller in a BB.
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 04:34 PM

Quote:

For cost, my Comp XR286HR-10 cam was $333.92,
Hughes Hydraulic Rollers were $354.00, and Isky 8005A valve springs were $149.95. Total = 837.87.

A Comp XE flat tappet cam and lifter kit is $200, so the Hydraulic Roller cam and lifters are about $488 more expensive. The springs I used may be a bit more expensive too? The roller does use the 3-bolt timing set, but the cost of the timing set I used is the same. The roller does need a cam thrust button, Bronze oil pump drive gear, and bronze tip fuel pump pushrod. That's maybe another $100 to $150, so I would guess gound with the roller setup would cost about $600-$650 more than a flat tappet cam? On the other hand, I wiped a Flat tappet cam lobe on my 360, and ended up doing a complete re-hone, re-ring, new bearings, oil pump, gaskets, and a new cam and lifters. That when I found out that the oil specifications changed.




That sounds a little pricey but maybe worth it. Do hydro rollers have to be adjusted?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 06:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For cost, my Comp XR286HR-10 cam was $333.92,
Hughes Hydraulic Rollers were $354.00, and Isky 8005A valve springs were $149.95. Total = 837.87.

A Comp XE flat tappet cam and lifter kit is $200, so the Hydraulic Roller cam and lifters are about $488 more expensive. The springs I used may be a bit more expensive too? The roller does use the 3-bolt timing set, but the cost of the timing set I used is the same. The roller does need a cam thrust button, Bronze oil pump drive gear, and bronze tip fuel pump pushrod. That's maybe another $100 to $150, so I would guess gound with the roller setup would cost about $600-$650 more than a flat tappet cam? On the other hand, I wiped a Flat tappet cam lobe on my 360, and ended up doing a complete re-hone, re-ring, new bearings, oil pump, gaskets, and a new cam and lifters. That when I found out that the oil specifications changed.




That sounds a little pricey but maybe worth it. Do hydro rollers have to be adjusted?



They are Hydraulic, so you need to set the correct pre-load just like a flat tappet hydraulic. Correct length pushrods are required for either a fixed or adjustable rocker system.
Posted By: 1970sixpak

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 07:21 PM

I would go hydraulic roller. I ran a flat tappet hrdraulic and was not happy and ended up going hydraulic roller. Now I am happy. More power and no worries about cam going flat is well worth the extra cost. Hughes hydraulic roller lifters @$350 have made this conversion more affordable.
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 07:38 PM

Quote:

I would go hydraulic roller. I ran a flat tappet hrdraulic and was not happy and ended up going hydraulic roller. Now I am happy. More power and no worries about cam going flat is well worth the extra cost. Hughes hydraulic roller lifters @$350 have made this conversion more affordable.




I think I am gonna go hydraulic roller. Now I have to find the right cam and hope lunati will take back the one I have .
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/15/12 07:41 PM

What about the specs on this cam?What do you guys think?

Intake Valve Lift 1.5
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .555"
.540"

Intake Valve Lift 1.6
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .592"
.576"

Intake Duration at .050"
Exhaust Duration at .050" 246°
252°

Lobe Separation Angle 110º

Intake Opening at .050"
Exhaust Opening at .050" 16° BTC
59° BBC

Intake Closing at .050"
Exhaust Closing at .050" 50° ABC
13° ATC

Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI

Sweet Spot RPM 2000 - 7000
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 02:06 AM

Quote:

What about the specs on this cam?What do you guys think?

Intake Valve Lift 1.5
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .555"
.540"

Intake Valve Lift 1.6
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .592"
.576"

Intake Duration at .050"
Exhaust Duration at .050" 246°
252°

Lobe Separation Angle 110º

Intake Opening at .050"
Exhaust Opening at .050" 16° BTC
59° BBC

Intake Closing at .050"
Exhaust Closing at .050" 50° ABC
13° ATC

Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI

Sweet Spot RPM 2000 - 7000



What type of cam is it, what is the rest of the engine specs, and the application?
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 02:29 AM

It's a hydro roller cam going in a 493 stroker with stealth heads the car is a challenger with a 727 and 323 gears. It's meant to be a street thumper that runs on pumped gas. I want at least 600+ fpt and at least 550+ hp. The compression will be a little over 10.5. What do you think, I want a car that tons of low end to mid range power. Is that descriptive enough or did i miss anything?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 02:56 AM

Quote:

It's a hydro roller cam going in a 493 stroker with stealth heads the car is a challenger with a 727 and 323 gears. It's meant to be a street thumper that runs on pumped gas. I want at least 600+ fpt and at least 550+ hp. The compression will be a little over 10.5. What do you think, I want a car that tons of low end to mid range power. Is that descriptive enough or did i miss anything?



That pretty much describes my 505.
10.38:1 compression (440 source 4.25" crank, 7.1" rods, 17cc dish pistons, older 84cc Stealth Heads.) I did some mild porting on the heads and had a multi-angle valve job done. I posted the flow numbers in another post, but I think they flowed around 285cfm at 0.600" lift.
I used the TTI 1-7/8" headers, and the small 2.5" exhaust. Intake is a RPM with Holley for now. That combination ends up being fairly tall to where I am installing a hood with a scoop on it. The Street Dominator intake would be good if you have hood clearance issues. For oiling, I used the reproduction street hemi oil pan. I enlarged the oil pickup for 1/2', but that may be over-kill. It also made finding a correct oil pickup more difficult. I think I ended up with a Mopar pickup and reshaped it a bit to fit.
I have not dynoed the engine, but the Dynomation 5 sim program puts power at 557 HP @ 4,800 RPM, and 643 ft/lbs @ 4,200 RPM. That is with the 770 cfm carb I'm using now. Just changing the carb spec to 1,000 cfm jumps power to 593 HP @ 5,800 RPM, and 665 ft/lbs @ 4,200 RPM.

Forgot the picture:


Attached picture 7294133-505.jpg
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 03:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Anthony....just remember if you use any flat tappet cam ..you gotta use a zinc additive ,especially on break in..then go to synthetic like Royal Purple...etc...and the solid tappet cams will need to be checked for adjustment regularly...




Ok I get that, right now I have a hyd flat tappet for my stroker, would a hydro roller perform better or do I just need a significantly more aggressive cam? I don't really want to over cam my car but don't want to leave to many horses on the table. I know I have to sacrifice in some area but I still would like over 500 horses an 600 torque. I hope my cam isn't to wimpy for that.



My 9:1 493 does 500hp/600 ft/lbs with a MP509 and Eddie heads. All done by 5000 RPM. I wouldn't do that cam again for my particular application but I wouldn't waste my time and money on a roller for a 5 grand engine either.

Kevin
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 03:10 AM

What kind of cam do you have tho? Would the numbers from the cam I gave you be a good combination or should I just get a hydro flat tappet?
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 08:13 AM

Quote:

What kind of cam do you have tho? Would the numbers from the cam I gave you be a good combination or should I just get a hydro flat tappet?



My cam is pretty mild because I plan to go fuel injected when my wallet recovers from building this engine, and I don't plan on reving the engine over 5,500 RPM. It is the Comp XR286HR-10. Only 236/242 duration at 0.050", 286/294 @ 0.006". Advertised valve lift with 1.5:1 rockers is 0.544/0.541", with my 1.7:1 rockers it is 0.617"/0.614".

For a big engine it revs quick. You will want to have a rev-limiter. When I first took the car out I was suprised I did not hurt the engine when I over-reved the engine in first gear, and then it did it again in 4th gear when the clutch decided to slip.
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 05:22 PM

Its funny but my buddy said he had fuel injection of a stroker with a really radical cam. He said it made the car run so smooth you couldnt tell it had a really big cam.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 07:05 PM

My first pump gas stroker was a 400 block bored to 4.375 and stroked to 4.25 with BB chevy rod sizes,(512 C.I.) I used a set of 906 iron heads with bigger valves that flowed 260 CFM at .600 lift, not a set of real good heads It was 9.25 to 1 comp. ratio, I used a Eddy low deck six pak intake and stock type carbs, that motor made 612 HP at 5600 RPM and 644 Ft. Lbs torque at 4500 RPM on CA pump swill back in 2004 on Vrbancic Bros. DTS engine dyno in Ontario, CA. That motor exceeded my expectation by a bunch I bought and used a Comp Cams custom grind solid roller cam that has 260 degrees at .050 with .420 lobe lift, the exhaust has 266 duration at .050 with .409 lobe lift, I used a set of 1.6 rockers so the net lift at the valves is right at .700 It pulls like gang busters, it is a real tire spinner also on bad surfaces My message is don't be afraid of big camshafts, stroker motors eat them up I have used custom ground hydraulic roller lifter grinds in other stroker motors, both types work well I have a 3.91 stroke 440 that is 464 C.I. with a set of Eddy RPM non ported heads that has a Comp Cams XE295HL in it, it has a six pak also, that motor is right at 3/4 second slower than the other motor is in my Duster The old 512 motor is now 518 C.I.(I increased the stroke to 4.300 to raise the compression ratio to 10.29 to 1 with the Eddy RPM heads I had on it back then) and I then switch heads again to a set of Indy SR with M.W. ports and a single Indy 400-3 intake with a Holley 1050 Dominator. The Indy heads increased the compression ratio to 10.78 to 1 now Don't be afraid of using a bigger cam, the stroker motors make them seem smaller than when there in a stock stroke motor
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 07:58 PM

The problem for me is I am not very knowledgable when it comes to hoe the cam specs effect my motor. In fact I am just not sure at all. In fact the cam I actually have some might say its to small. I am just trying to find one that will be right for me is what Im trying to say. First I need to know if the lunati voodoo cam I have is good enough.
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 08:09 PM

Just like porting ...you can try what you got ...and change it later if you don't like it..yes cubic inches do make a cam seem smaller at idle..
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 08:25 PM

Larry I think I showed you my cam specs from the cam I actually have, did it seem too small?
Posted By: dynamite

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/16/12 09:09 PM

I'm sure it will work well, It doesn't look bad ,,There may be one (without going to a roller) that will work better with your combo is all I'm saying,and really only an experienced cam builder/designer is qualified to say.. and they can, in most cases regrind your cam to better specs..if you chose to do so..Tim at Bullet cams is the mopar cam guy to call..do yourself a favor ..just make the call and talk to him ..for the $$ of a phone call get your questions answered by a pro..
Posted By: torqueaddict

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/17/12 03:31 AM

I talked to Tim at Bullet. Hes a really good guy. We talked about my cam and the kind of power it would generate. He said the cam I had would work good for my application but I could go with a bigger cam especially if I plan to put bigger gears in my car. I may just keep the one I have and go from there. Lunati basically told me as long as its not broken I can return it. Hell he made it seem as if I could exchange it and get a bigger cam if I dont like the way it performs. When people stand by theyre product it makes me want to give them a shot just too see theyre level of quality. I will update when its in to let you guys know how it turned out. Thanks for all the help guys!
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/17/12 04:14 AM

Quote:

yes cubic inches do make a cam seem smaller at idle..



It might "act" smaller but it sure won't sound smaller. As my machinist puts it "76 deg of overlap is 76 deg of overlap" as is the case with the MP509 I have in mine.

Where the cubes help is that it will have bottom end torque. A 509 in a 440 is a stone without at least a 3500 stall converter and minimum 3.91 gears. My 493 was swinging the needle on the dyno big time at 1500 and was making 500 ft/lbs by 2000. The only reason I put a 2800 converter in mine was so it wouldn't smash the driveline when you put it in D at 1100 rpm. Other than that it just drove away fine with the stock converter and a 2.76 gear.

First and only time out it went 13.92 at 101 4800 lbs with me in it. That was with full exhaust 2.76 SG and a no traction 2.23 60 ft.

Kevin
Posted By: BIGSTROKER

Re: Cam choices pros and cons for different cam types - 07/20/12 01:17 AM

you covered that brother
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