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Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them?

Posted By: MidPenMopar

Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:01 AM

My 69 road runner cowl started to crack near the windshield so before I fix and repaint the area I am pretty sure it's time for sub frame connectors.

I am taking the car down next week to my friends muffler shop to get a custom made exhaust system and my buddy said he can weld me up a set of sub frame connectors at the same time. He said he has done a few of them on E-bodies and he uses 1 x 2 box tubing. He showed me some photos and it's a pretty nice clean look.

So this all sounds good but I was just wondering if there are any downsides to having them installed?

Thanks for any opinions
Stu
Posted By: gregsrt

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:12 AM

None that I know of. I had them on my 69 Bee and it was noticeably stiffer.
Posted By: dustergirl340

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:14 AM

I've had them on my Duster for almost 10 years now. No cons here. Easier to jack the car up, drives better on the road, launches straighter at the track.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:21 AM

Quote:

I've had them on my Duster for almost 10 years now. No cons here. Easier to jack the car up, drives better on the road, launches straighter at the track.



Ok that all sounds pretty positive!
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:33 AM

Put 'em on. I would also look around for broken spot welds around the front sub-frames. Tighten the whole thing up.
Posted By: MoparforLife

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:39 AM

Just happen to have a set of competition engineering connectors for B body that I got for my runner and never got to use because I sold the car as a project. PM me if interested.
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:57 AM

Quote:

Just happen to have a set of competition engineering connectors for B body that I got for my runner and never got to use because I sold the car as a project. PM me if interested.



Ok I PMed you!
Posted By: Silver70

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 02:03 AM

Only reason to me is if your building a totally stock original car... this wouldn't fit for your car
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 04:30 AM

Look at the subframe connector threads in the Cornering forum here. I doubt that 1x2 tubing would add that much torsional stiffness. The cowl crack is probably due to a hidden defect from the time the car was built or because of a collision long ago. I recall reading your posts, as I remember, you don't stress your car very much. The connectors may be a waste of effort and $$ if you drive conservatively.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 04:43 AM

Quote:

Look at the subframe connector threads in the Cornering forum here. I doubt that 1x2 tubing would add that much torsional stiffness. The cowl crack is probably due to a hidden defect from the time the car was built or because of a collision long ago. I recall reading your posts, as I remember, you don't stress your car very much. The connectors may be a waste of effort and $$ if you drive conservatively.



I pretty much agree with this.. Stu you probably don't drive aggressively enough to justify subframe connectors but if you want to add them I don't see any reason not to... But if your gonna do it 1"x2" material isn't worth the trouble.... most guys use 2"x2" or 2"x3"...
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 05:06 AM

Quote:


I pretty much agree with this.. Stu you probably don't drive aggressively enough to justify subframe connectors but if you want to add them I don't see any reason not to... But if your gonna do it 1"x2" material isn't worth the trouble.... most guys use 2"x2" or 2"x3"...



Ok that's what i was looking to find out as to what is the way to go on them. Here's a set that Summit sells for $150.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-3117/All/
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 05:34 AM

If your gonna do it consider these..
https://store.uscartool.com/66-70-B-Body-Frame-Connectors_p_13.html

A picture of them installed..

http://www.uscartool.com/img/70Superbird/index.html
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 05:38 AM

Quote:

If your gonna do it consider these..
https://store.uscartool.com/66-70-B-Body-Frame-Connectors_p_13.html

A picture of them installed..

http://www.uscartool.com/img/70Superbird/index.html



Ok now i see how they did it. Looks like a very nice job on that Superbird.
Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 06:03 AM

I used the 2x3" square tube. Slot open the front part of the rear sub-frame and the square tube slides right in nicely so you can weld it all back together. Only downside to doing it this way is in the back seat feet area the tube comes thru the floor by about 1". It gives a real nice increase in torsional rigidity. Some guys cut the tube to fit the floor's contour, I don't like this because the thinner the tube gets and less rigid it is.
Posted By: dustergirl340

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 01:59 PM

2X2 1/8" square stock tubing on mine.
Posted By: abodyjoe

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 04:10 PM

this is how i did mine. i could feel that they were there in the first hard corner i took.


http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/connectors.shtml
Posted By: rabid scott

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 04:47 PM

Quote:

I used the 2x3" square tube. Slot open the front part of the rear sub-frame and the square tube slides right in nicely so you can weld it all back together. Only downside to doing it this way is in the back seat feet area the tube comes thru the floor by about 1". It gives a real nice increase in torsional rigidity.



This is the exact way I do it!

Posted By: jbc426

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 07:26 PM

Be sure to add the 4 torque boxes when you add the sub-frame connectors. You may want to consider putting in a lower radiator support while your under there too.

I set mine back enough to clear the radiator tank on my '68. It's easier to put in that way, less intrusive and can be removed pretty easily in the future should the need arise.

You can see it tieing the bottom of the front frame rails together down in there just in front of the fan belt

Attached picture 7142890-IMG_2563(Large).JPG
Posted By: BDW

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 07:55 PM

Looks good, I've always wondered why no one notches the rear portion so it doesn't stick so far through? Would there still be enough rigidity?

Quote:





Posted By: RobX4406

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 08:06 PM

Any connector, even 1x2 is better than none! I'd go the go the non invasive route on Stu's car if it was mine. no need to cut into the floor pan to gain benefits.

Last set I made were 2x2 .090 wall IIRC. They make a big difference in ride quality. .125 wall is overkill in almost every situation except stout race cars.
Posted By: mickm

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 08:10 PM

Quote:


Ok that all sounds pretty positive!



stu,

i'm installing the uscartool ones on mine, will be doing it at gordon's sometime in the future.

not sure i would have someone who isn't familiar with installing these on mopars do it though. gordon did the ones on herb's car, and the ones on john and brenda's car. i would talk with him about it.
Posted By: DPelletier

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 08:22 PM

Any reasons not to? sure; if your car is stock and you want to keep it unmodified. I didn't bother with them on my Purestock build as I figured it wouldn't need them with the polyglass tires.

If I WAS going to do them, I would definitely use the US car tool contoured ones as I would not want to cut the floor.


Dave
Posted By: Dcuda69

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 09:16 PM

Quote:

Be sure to add the 4 torque boxes when you add the sub-frame connectors. You may want to consider putting in a lower radiator support while your under there too.

I set mine back enough to clear the radiator tank on my '68. It's easier to put in that way, less intrusive and can be removed pretty easily in the future should the need arise.

You can see it tieing the bottom of the front frame rails together down in there just in front of the fan belt



Sorry to hi-jack, but do you have details on this engine compartment brace? Materials,etc.? Often thought of building one for my BB A-body
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 09:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Be sure to add the 4 torque boxes when you add the sub-frame connectors. You may want to consider putting in a lower radiator support while your under there too.

I set mine back enough to clear the radiator tank on my '68. It's easier to put in that way, less intrusive and can be removed pretty easily in the future should the need arise.

You can see it tieing the bottom of the front frame rails together down in there just in front of the fan belt



Sorry to hi-jack, but do you have details on this engine compartment brace? Materials,etc.? Often thought of building one for my BB A-body



It's just some angle iron, DOM tubing and a small piece of steel plate at the cowl. Only had to drill a few holes on the cowl pinch weld. Other than those, it bolted on using exsisting bolts.

While not visible in that previous pic, there are also under fender braces and sub-frame connectors from US Cartool.

My factory front shock towers had started to break at the few spot welds that were there, so I welded all that back up as well.

While it's beyond what most people want to get into, it really has transformed the car's chassis.

Attached picture 7143069-IMG_2548(Large).JPG
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 11:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Look at the subframe connector threads in the Cornering forum here. I doubt that 1x2 tubing would add that much torsional stiffness. The cowl crack is probably due to a hidden defect from the time the car was built or because of a collision long ago. I recall reading your posts, as I remember, you don't stress your car very much. The connectors may be a waste of effort and $$ if you drive conservatively.



I pretty much agree with this.. Stu you probably don't drive aggressively enough to justify subframe connectors but if you want to add them I don't see any reason not to... But if your gonna do it 1"x2" material isn't worth the trouble.... most guys use 2"x2" or 2"x3"...



Ehhh, I sorta agree but sorta disagree. Sub-frame connectors do not provide a huge amount of support for torsional stiffness, but they do help some. They do provide a large amount of help for increasing overall rigidity, particularly accelleration forces and they do a good job at reducing squeaks, rattles, and panel alignment changes that occur with a 40 year old car, regardless of how hard you drive it. This alone is worth their addition.

Similarly, while 2x3 or 3x3 bisecting the floor are better suited to the application, simple 1x3 tubing, even set in the flattest plane, will improve overall strength enouhg to be noticeable.

Think of it this way, your car is held together by spot welds, just like a shirt with buttons. Gaps between all those welds/buttons allow flex. Adding subframe connectors and/or torque boxes provides additional support for all those welds.
Posted By: Secret Chimp

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 11:37 PM

I think subframe connectors would help for any car, regardless of how it's driven. My passenger side door seal squeaks whenever I get on or off the brakes with how the chassis flexes from the loading (I don't have connectors yet).
Posted By: MidPenMopar

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/30/12 11:44 PM

I am looking into them primally to stop any more damage being done to the car having to go up and down the curbs to get in my parking spot. I put in some ramps but the poor car still has to twist a lot as my street is very narrow.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/31/12 12:08 AM

Quote:

I am looking into them primally to stop any more damage being done to the car having to go up and down the curbs to get in my parking spot. I put in some ramps but the poor car still has to twist a lot as my street is very narrow.



Adding torque boxes and the front lower radiator support when you do the subframe connector installation will help significantly for those types of torsional forces.

The under fender bracing and shock/cowl bracing are helpful too, but it's a lot more work.
Posted By: bigD

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 03/31/12 12:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If your gonna do it consider these..
https://store.uscartool.com/66-70-B-Body-Frame-Connectors_p_13.html

A picture of them installed..

http://www.uscartool.com/img/70Superbird/index.html



Ok now i see how they did it. Looks like a very nice job on that Superbird.



If you want a "stock" look this is the way to go , I have CE's on the 68 Charger. Definitly helped IMO,D
Posted By: Darius

Re: Subframe connectors any reasons not to have them? - 04/01/12 12:14 AM

Hey Stu
Here is how mine look on my 70 GTX. I got these fron XV Motorsports. I am not necessarily promoting XV, just saying that is where I got mine. I witnessed a pair from US Car Tool being installed on a 69 Dart and not only was there much grinding and fitting required but there are places where they do NOT and will not ever meet the floor boards. Perhaps some of the gap s can be attributed to "chases" for routing brake lines and fuel lines but I didn't think it needed to be so much based on how the XV units fit....almost perfect out of the box and I had already replaced the floor pan with one from AMD.
Never could understand why guys cut "slots" in the floor to do this other than it is easier to do.

Attached picture 7145127-frameConnectors007.jpg
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