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Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 71GoMango] #988250
05/17/11 11:38 PM
05/17/11 11:38 PM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:


Quote:

M42 front stone shield molding & M44 hood rear and fender moldings are codes that were not used for Challengers.




Are you saying these aren't on Challengers? I have both of these codes on my 71 Challenger RT





It looks like I should have said that these codes were not used for 1970 Challengers. The A63 option and SE Challengers we were discussing were both only available in 1970.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988251
05/18/11 09:11 AM
05/18/11 09:11 AM
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71GoMango Offline
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Quote:

M44 is the back edge of the hood & fenders on 1971 A46 molding package challengers. These same parts are used on the 1970 SE & 1970 A63 cars, but on those cars they are considered as part of the M31 belt molding as the M44 code was not used. So, 1970 M31 is hood, fenders, doors & quarters, while 1971 M31 is only doors & quarters.




All of the fender tag decoding sites I have looked at(including the one I printed 10 years ago) show that M31 is specifically belt & HOOD molding unless its 69-70, then there is another listing stating that M31(69-70)was just belt molding, which contradicts what your stating here, if Im understanding you correctly...Not that you dont have extensive knowledge and research as it sounds like you do, Im just wondering where these fender tag decoder sheets were derived and if these are wrong?

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 71GoMango] #988252
05/18/11 10:26 AM
05/18/11 10:26 AM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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For the most part, those decoders are based on the research of Galen Govier. He has published this research in his white books, also known as pocket books. They are good resources and available on his website fairly cheap if you're interested in obtaining a copy for yourself. He has being doing this for a long time, and occasionally updates the books with new info. It possible that the online places copied both the outdated & the updated info. A lot of those online decoders copy from each other and don't really do any research of their own. If they do any research on their own, that research is prone to be be incomplete or questionable.

The biggest problem with almost any decoder is that they try to simplify the codes over a period of years and models, but in reality, the meaning/availability of the codes can change between years/models, and different models often use different parts for the same code. This is especialy true of grouped items like option packages.

For example,...

A Challenger trunk light won't be the same as a Roadrunner trunk light, even though they may both use the same trunk light code.

The 71 Challenger M42 molding is a different part from the 72 Challenger M42 molding.

M88 tail panel molding is 4 piece stainless on a 70 'Cuda, but the same code in the same year on a Gran Coupe Barracuda is a 3 piece aluminum molding.

Sometimes a code will not be used for a year, and then come back meaning something entirely different. You'll see that in the decoders when they try to add info from the late 70's or the 80's on top of the musclecar era stuff.


Even though M42 doesn't appear to have been used on 70 Challengers, it may have still been used on other mopars in 1970 and even in 1969, so the decoders would list it as M42 1969-1972. (this is just an example, M42 doesn't appear to have been used on anything in 1969)

For a decoder to really be reliable, it needs to be make and model specific.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988253
05/18/11 11:05 AM
05/18/11 11:05 AM
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1_WILD_RT Offline
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Quote:

For the most part, those decoders are based on the research of Galen Govier. He has published this research in his white books, also known as pocket books. They are good resources and available on his website fairly cheap if you're interested in obtaining a copy for yourself. He has being doing this for a long time, and occasionally updates the books with new info. It possible that the online places copied both the outdated & the updated info. A lot of those online decoders copy from each other and don't really do any research of their own. If they do any research on their own, that research is prone to be be incomplete or questionable.

The biggest problem with almost any decoder is that they try to simplify the codes over a period of years and models, but in reality, the meaning/availability of the codes can change between years/models, and different models often use different parts for the same code. This is especialy true of grouped items like option packages.

For example,...

A Challenger trunk light won't be the same as a Roadrunner trunk light, even though they may both use the same trunk light code.

The 71 Challenger M42 molding is a different part from the 72 Challenger M42 molding.

M88 tail panel molding is 4 piece stainless on a 70 'Cuda, but the same code in the same year on a Gran Coupe Barracuda is a 3 piece aluminum molding.

Sometimes a code will not be used for a year, and then come back meaning something entirely different. You'll see that in the decoders when they try to add info from the late 70's or the 80's on top of the musclecar era stuff.


Even though M42 doesn't appear to have been used on 70 Challengers, it may have still been used on other mopars in 1970 and even in 1969, so the decoders would list it as M42 1969-1972. (this is just an example, M42 doesn't appear to have been used on anything in 1969)

For a decoder to really be reliable, it needs to be make and model specific.

Tav





100%


"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #988254
05/18/11 07:24 PM
05/18/11 07:24 PM
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Seattle
ragtopdodge Offline
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Just curious, on a '70 Challenger convertible, what would be the code on the back hood, top fender/door moulding?

M41? M44?

I've seen very very few 'verts w/that moulding. Jerome Verbit was the only one who repopped the long, 'Cuda-like rear quarter moulding that matched up w/the well moulding.

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: ragtopdodge] #988255
05/18/11 08:12 PM
05/18/11 08:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,072
Farmland, IN
Ludington1 Offline
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Tav,
My 71 R/T shaker Challenger also has those codes for the fender/hood trim and the valance trim, I think they are for 71 but not for 70 on Challengers.

My

Darren

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: Ludington1] #988256
05/18/11 11:27 PM
05/18/11 11:27 PM
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Posts: 298
FL
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71GoMango Offline
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Cataclysm, thanks for the help, and for not taking my comment in the wrong context as I was only trying to gain a better understanding of all this, Im sure the folks 40 yrs ago never thought what a controversy these codes would cause some folks these days.

How would I go about finding production info for all 71 challengers, like how many RT's were built, then how many of those were formal roof, and then how many were special ordered(K - special handling & Y39), and how many had a 999 paint code. Id like to have some display signs with a little history made up to use with my car @ shows...should this be another post? dont want to highjack this thread...Thanks!

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: Ludington1] #988257
05/19/11 09:58 AM
05/19/11 09:58 AM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:

Tav,
My 71 R/T shaker Challenger also has those codes for the fender/hood trim and the valance trim, I think they are for 71 but not for 70 on Challengers.

My

Darren




Hi Darren, I agree, that's also the conclusion I've come to.

Next time your at Casita de Tejas, have a bite of food for me. Yum

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 71GoMango] #988258
05/19/11 10:22 AM
05/19/11 10:22 AM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:

How would I go about finding production info for all 71 challengers, like how many RT's were built, then how many of those were formal roof, and then how many were special ordered(K - special handling & Y39), and how many had a 999 paint code. Id like to have some display signs with a little history made up to use with my car @ shows...




Galens white book for 1969-1971 will tell you how many 71 Challenger R/Ts were built along with what their Engine/Transmission combo was. Convertibles are listed seperatly from hardtops in the book. It won't have any of the more specific info you're looking for though. It sounds like what your REALLY looking for is Galens 1971 Challenger R/T Options & Accessories Report. That will give you a much better idea how many 71 Challenger R/Ts came with each option code. I'd like to get all of his options & accessories reports myself, but so far I only have part of the 70 Challenger version.

Here's Galens contact info...

website http://www.gvgovier.com/

Call or Write or email:

booksales@gvgovier.com


Galen's Tag Service, LLC.
Galen V. Govier
PO Box 516
Prairie du Chien, WI 53821-0516
(608) 326-6346 VOX
(608) 326-8061 FAX


I don't think the website gets updated very often, and it may not show the item that you're looking for. It might be better to call on the phone.


I think that having a sign for your car is an excellent idea. You have a rare and interesting car. Having the sign will let everyone know about it, instead of just those of us who can decode the tag.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: ragtopdodge] #988259
05/19/11 10:37 AM
05/19/11 10:37 AM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:

Just curious, on a '70 Challenger convertible, what would be the code on the back hood, top fender/door moulding?






The 70 Challenger convertible broadcast sheets I have are not coded for that molding. Near as I can tell though, the code would be M31, the same as the other 70 Challengers. Same code, even though the quarter top molding is a different part for the convertible.

M31 may not have been available seperately from the A63 package though, so possibly BOTH codes would appear.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 71GoMango] #988260
05/19/11 01:57 PM
05/19/11 01:57 PM
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Maryland
wally426ci Offline
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Quote:

then how many of those were formal roof




I have seen numbers around 229 for Formal Roof A78 coded cars. I truly love seeing these car's pop up. I have only seen 1 in my area and it was for sale at Carlisle. They seem to show up here and there. Between people talking and pictures Ive seen as well as eBay - I have known about maybe 15 total.

There's always someone who chimes in on the A78 threads who says they aren't special, or they see them all of the time. They are unique, and I hope to see another 1 in person. There is a B5 RT in a book i saw recently that is barn found that looks cool.

My fender tag is loaded too, but they only went with a 318 which doesn't bother me. I don't have to feel bad about having a stroker in its place.


Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988261
05/20/11 12:10 PM
05/20/11 12:10 PM
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Aurora
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ebodiesonly Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Just curious, on a '70 Challenger convertible, what would be the code on the back hood, top fender/door moulding?






The 70 Challenger convertible broadcast sheets I have are not coded for that molding. Near as I can tell though, the code would be M31, the same as the other 70 Challengers. Same code, even though the quarter top molding is a different part for the convertible.

M31 may not have been available seperately from the A63 package though, so possibly BOTH codes would appear.

Tav




I have broadcast sheet for my Challenger vert and it has both of those codes, A63 and M31


1970 Challenger R/T 383
1970 Challenger Convertible 383
Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: ebodiesonly] #988262
05/20/11 01:34 PM
05/20/11 01:34 PM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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GREAT, An A63 broadcast sheet! Would you please verify that M42 &/or M44 Do Not appear on your A63 broadcast sheet?

Thanks!

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988263
05/20/11 02:28 PM
05/20/11 02:28 PM
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ebodiesonly Offline
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Quote:

GREAT, An A63 broadcast sheet! Would you please verify that M42 &/or M44 Do Not appear on your A63 broadcast sheet?

Thanks!

Tav




Hi Tav,
M42 or M44 does not appear in my Challenger's broadcast sheet.
SPD of my vert is A28, maybe later those codes might be included in the broadcast sheet?


1970 Challenger R/T 383
1970 Challenger Convertible 383
Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: ebodiesonly] #988264
05/21/11 12:09 AM
05/21/11 12:09 AM
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Calgary, Alberta Canada
m46rat Offline
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I have a sheet with A63 coded on it. It is a 70 318 Hard Top Challenger SPD is B08. No M22 or M44 coded on it. Do you want me to check for anything else on it?

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: ebodiesonly] #988265
05/22/11 12:29 PM
05/22/11 12:29 PM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:


Hi Tav,
M42 or M44 does not appear in my Challenger's broadcast sheet.
SPD of my vert is A28, maybe later those codes might be included in the broadcast sheet?




That did cross my mind actually. Galen's white book shows that both codes were used in 1970, it just doesn't say if they were used on Challengers or if it was some other car. Possibly the codes started being used REALLY late in 70 production?

I think a more likely option is that the codes were used on some other mopar in 70, and not on Challengers.

A third option is that Galen is wrong, and the codes aren't used in 70 at all.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988266
05/22/11 12:32 PM
05/22/11 12:32 PM
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1_WILD_RT Offline
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Late Enough? Bought it in 74 sold it in 98... Opps,, just realized your talking broadcast sheets... I don't have a scan available here...

N85 N88 N95 R31 R35 CTD
L25 M21 M31 N41 N42
C55 G33 H51 J41 J45 J54
V1X A01 A62 B51 C16 C26
FK5 HRK4 000 723 184372
E86 D32 JS29U0B440289


V68 Y05 26 EN1
JS29U0B440289

Last edited by 1_WILD_RT; 05/22/11 12:49 PM.

"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: m46rat] #988267
05/22/11 12:37 PM
05/22/11 12:37 PM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:

M42 & M44 are not used on any of the SE broadcast sheets I have.

Unfortunately, I don't seem to have any A63 broadcast sheets or A46 broadcast sheets. Can someone out there check those (or upload here so we can see)?

I expect that the codes won't be on any A63 sheets, but will be on all A46 sheets, even though both splash pan scoop & rear hood moldings are the same 70-71.





Quote:

I have broadcast sheet for my Challenger vert and it has both of those codes, A63 and M31. M42 or M44 does not appear in my Challenger's broadcast sheet. SPD of my vert is A28





Quote:

I have a sheet with A63 coded on it. It is a 70 318 Hard Top Challenger SPD is B08. No M42 or M44 coded on it. Do you want me to check for anything else on it?





THANKS! I don't need it for this, but would LOVE to have a copy of a 318 hardtop Challenger sheet for other research. Any chance you could scan it and email it to me?

For this thread, the only thing left is to check and A46 sheet, but if the codes are on the fender tags, it's a really safe bet they're on the sheets also.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #988268
05/22/11 12:45 PM
05/22/11 12:45 PM
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cataclysm80 Offline
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Quote:



Late Enough? Bought it in 74 sold it in 98...

N85 N88 N95 R31 R35 CTD
L25 M21 M31 N41 N42
C55 G33 H51 J41 J45 J54
V1X A01 A62 B51 C16 C26
FK5 HRK4 000 723 184372
E86 D32 JS29U0B440289


V68 Y05 26 EN1
JS29U0B440289





Yep, that's late enough for me. Is that the last day of production or something? Wow.

It's an SE, so there isn't an A63 code, but the M42 & M44 codes would have been there IF they were being used at the time. Since they're not, it's pretty safe to say NO M42 or M44 on 70 Challengers.

That's a REALLY nice car Randy! I don't think that I would have been able to sell something like that.

Tav

Re: Challenger SE trim questions [Re: cataclysm80] #988269
05/22/11 12:58 PM
05/22/11 12:58 PM
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1_WILD_RT Offline
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It was a nice car, really it still is... But I enjoy my vert enough that I really don't miss the old R/T SE... I never drove that car much, always had something else that was more fun.... It wasn't fast enough to scare ya, it wasn't comfortable enough to make you want to go for a drive... It did everything just like a 70 Challenger... My vert drives better, looks better, gets better mileage.... And I get to fight with Coral about putting the top down....


"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
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