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You should state weather the ? are pointed up or down

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As Stated, you have 275* of Pinion Angle all added up.


I can state without a doubt! That you do have some pinion angle!

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Fear wasn't enough to keep me from clicking on this.
I wish I could help , but I am struggling to decipher your angles and how they relate to flat level ground.
There seems to be an information overload.
You can get the pinion angle from the tail shaft and pinion yoke angles alone..........yes ?
Or maybe I am more confused than you are.

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2 theories ... one uses pinion and trans the other
uses pinion and drive shaft... now days I just ask
which answer would you like... I dont care to get
into all the BS... I happen to use the drive shaft
but when I built the car I put the trans on centerline
with the pinion

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Well, I hate to tell you this but lets start over.
1.) Get the car up in the air with the car supported on the rear axle and the front supported around the front suspention.
2.) Take the driveline off the pinion yoke.
3.) Measure the angle on the pinion yoke were the caps bolt to.
4.) This should give you a measurement with the needle on one side of 90* towards the front of the car or towards the back of the car. Record it.
5.) Put the driveline back on
6.) Now put the tool on the bottom of the driveline and take another measurement. Again it should be on one side or the other of the 90* mark toward the front or back of the car. Record it.
7.) Now that all that is done if one measurement is 4* toward the back and the other is 2* toward the front your pinion angle would be 6*.
8.) If they are both the same way (toward the back) 4* and 2* then your pinion angle is 2*.

Hope all this helps!

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Fear wasn't enough to keep me from clicking on this.
I wish I could help , but I am struggling to decipher your angles and how they relate to flat level ground.
There seems to be an information overload.
You can get the pinion angle from the tail shaft and pinion yoke angles alone..........yes ?
Or maybe I am more confused than you are.

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Well, I hate to tell you this but lets start over.
1.) Get the car up in the air with the car supported on the rear axle and the front supported around the front suspention.
2.) Take the driveline off the pinion yoke.
3.) Measure the angle on the pinion yoke were the caps bolt to.
4.) This should give you a measurement with the needle on one side of 90* towards the front of the car or towards the back of the car. Record it.
5.) Put the driveline back on
6.) Now put the tool on the bottom of the driveline and take another measurement. Again it should be on one side or the other of the 90* mark toward the front or back of the car. Record it.
7.) Now that all that is done if one measurement is 4* toward the back and the other is 2* toward the front your pinion angle would be 6*.
8.) If they are both the same way (toward the back) 4* and 2* then your pinion angle is 2*.

Hope all this helps!

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Great explaination. Rates right up there with the best.

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Well, I hate to tell you this but lets start over.
1.) Get the car up in the air with the car supported on the rear axle and the front supported around the front suspention.
2.) Take the driveline off the pinion yoke.
3.) Measure the angle on the pinion yoke were the caps bolt to.
4.) This should give you a measurement with the needle on one side of 90* towards the front of the car or towards the back of the car. Record it.
5.) Put the driveline back on
6.) Now put the tool on the bottom of the driveline and take another measurement. Again it should be on one side or the other of the 90* mark toward the front or back of the car. Record it.
7.) Now that all that is done if one measurement is 4* toward the back and the other is 2* toward the front your pinion angle would be 6*.
8.) If they are both the same way (toward the back) 4* and 2* then your pinion angle is 2*.

Hope all this helps!

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ok on the rear yoke its 80 needle pointing to the rear

on the D-shaft its 86 needle pointed to the front of car

this is with the car on the ground -- weight in the seat. Thats how "most" of the people say to measure.

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With this info I would say your pinion angle is 14*

Your info says to me that the pinion yoke is down 10* and you driveshaft angle is down 4*

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I find this confusing because there are 8 different methods/opinions on the subject .

SO--lets try a new approach. Im going to post my measurements and lets see if everyone comes up with the same number in the end .

Here we go:


d-shaft at rear angle 86 degrees (4 ? ) DOWN measured on bottom of shaft. D shaft is pointed down at rear.


pinion flange 81 degrees (9 ? ) DOWN vertically measured . pinion is pointing down .


trans seal - measured vertically 88 degrees (2?) UP .


pinion yoke (u joint cap) 5 degrees DOWN


so ... what is my pinion angle ?

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trans seal - measured vertically 88 degrees (2?) UP .
(you can go off the balancer if you can get on it for this measurement also)


pinion yoke (u joint cap) 5 degrees DOWN


so ... what is my pinion angle ?

-3

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I would say 7* pinion angle. This is why if your transmission was 0* just for sake of trying to make things easy, then you raise the trans 2* you have added angle if you lower it 2* you would have 3* pinion angle. This is why I always use the drive shaft and the pinion yoke, the math is easier.

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trans seal - measured vertically 88 degrees (2?) UP .
(you can go off the balancer if you can get on it for this measurement also)


pinion yoke (u joint cap) 5 degrees DOWN


so ... what is my pinion angle ?

-3

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I would say 7* pinion angle. This is why if your transmission was 0* just for sake of trying to make things easy, then you raise the trans 2* you have added angle if you lower it 2* you would have 3* pinion angle. This is why I always use the drive shaft and the pinion yoke, the math is easier.

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trans seal - measured vertically 88 degrees (2?) UP .
(you can go off the balancer if you can get on it for this measurement also)


pinion yoke (u joint cap) 5 degrees DOWN


so ... what is my pinion angle ?

-3

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I would say 7* pinion angle. This is why if your transmission was 0* just for sake of trying to make things easy, then you raise the trans 2* you have added angle if you lower it 2* you would have 3* pinion angle. This is why I always use the drive shaft and the pinion yoke, the math is easier.

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bzzzt! do not pass go, do not collect $200.

pinion angle is the angle of the tranny output shaft relative to the pinion shaft. if the tranny is 0, to have 0 pinion angle, the pinion has to be 0. if the tranny is 2 deg. nose up (higher in rear than front), the pinion has to be 2 degrees nose down (higher in the rear than the front) for pinion angle. his pinion shaft is 3 degrees nose down more than the 0 point, so -3 (3 degrees nose down) is correct

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I had to put it on paper but you are right -3* is your pinion angle. So can I have my $200.00 dollars now?

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ok ...

so far we have 2 guys at -3


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<




First theres a problem with your info.


The two guys that gave you -3 are Correct When using your 2* UP Tranny angle and 5* Down Pinion angle.

For the Tranny angle you have a single mesurement of 2* UP! But for the Pinion Angle you have 3 Seperate Down measurements.

5* , 9* , and 10*

With the 5* measurement being taken off the "Yoke Cap"?? I take that to mean you measured off the universal joints cap seated in the pinion yoke.

Im going to guess/assume that, that measurement is a error. And the correct measurement is closer to 9* or 10*

But , I will list All 3 pinion angles for the above numbers with a 2 * +/Up Tranny angle.

Tranny--------Pinion------Pinion angle--

2*Up----------5* Down-------=/ -3* Down

2*Up----------9* Down-------=/ -7* Down

2*Up---------10* Down-------=/ -8* Down






Any of the Above Tranny/Pinion numbers if Correct will Represent your "True" "Pinion Angle" between tranny and pinion centerline.


EDIT; With your shaft 4* down and pinion 10* down that = a 14* Driveshaft/Pinion angle, but a Actual 8* Tranny/Pinion angle relationship with the tranny being 2* up. Confusing I know!

The Ujoint by "Physics" is designed to work best under load at a Parallel driveline angle. But lets not Forget its name. "Universal Joint", It peforms best within Parallel plane parameters but will work beyond those perimeters as well.

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thanks Sport ---

Now , we also have the crowd that uses the pinion measurement and the D shaft measurement....will their results be the same numbers ?

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thanks Sport ---

Now , we also have the crowd that uses the pinion measurement and the D shaft measurement....will their results be the same numbers ?

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No, You only gave One set of numbers between the pinion and the driveshaft.

Those were 4* down Shaft and 10* Down Pinion, witch would give you a "Driveshaft /Pinion angle of 14*

I will Edit my post to include that for a perspective.

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Ok Ok....Red....

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you are not helping Al.....

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just completely forget about the driveshaft measurement!

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A few of the responses are kinda funny.


Set your operating angle. Use your trans angle to set your operating angle, like the Rossler chart or 100 other charts.
Once you have your operating angle set, then set your pinion angle, like the Rossler chart or 100 other charts.



It's the terminology that gets everyone all up in the air, some state operating/pinion angle, some think both are combined into the same thing.

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I have the Rossler. Please post the other 99 charts. Or how about this --- 5 other charts?


this is the meaning of my thread

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just completely forget about the driveshaft measurement!

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you see why im asking? some swear by the shaft----some dont use the shaft in the equation !

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yea I used to think that way also! however dr diff the guy who messes with rears for a living says to go off the tranny and rear so I use that all the time now and forget the rest... less headache that way and it works! for the record I am at -4 right now...

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(Why did I let myself get drawn into this mess?)
Motor/transmission center line in relation to pinion center line = proper way to measure. Not too difficult, some don't get it. Some will argue till the moon turns to swiss cheese. physics says this is the proper way to cancel change in speed due to an angled joint. Run the joints ninety degrees to each other, all is good if the trans and diff are close to parallel. Some angle is needed to properly keep the joints lubed and keep the needles from flattening due to being at the same spot all the time. If the engine/trans measurement didn't matter, then the diff angle wouldn't either. Run one too far out of alignment, you get broken trans parts. I will try and load a photo.
If the trans is pointing down and the diff is pointing down, add them. If either is going a different direction, subtract the smaller angle from the larger. If both are pointing up, fix em.

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I went off the rossler chart and mine is 6 degrees down on SS springs but i think you might need a little less with caltracs.
Mick

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thanks Sport ---

Now , we also have the crowd that uses the pinion measurement and the D shaft measurement....will their results be the same numbers ?

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No, You only gave One set of numbers between the pinion and the driveshaft.

Those were 4* down Shaft and 10* Down Pinion, witch would give you a "Driveshaft /Pinion angle of 14*

I will Edit my post to include that for a perspective.

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OK, here is what i meant ---

there are people who measure the shaft and the pinion.

your method is the Trans and the pinion. correct?

here is what i mean :

skip to about 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8FNgaNqS8s


notice this guy doesnt include any trans angle

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And Did You notice, he's working with a 2 piece driveshaft. He states this works on Mustangs with a 2 piece shaft from 2005 on up.


Dont get me wrong You can get by with using the driveshaft. Its just not as accurate.


In MR.Pbodies car, he built his engine/tranny driveline paralell to the pinion. He and anyone else who does the same can accurately set the pinion angle off the Shaft.

People with Unmolested drivetrains can set the pinion angle off the shaft and still not have problems. Though the accuracy of the true pinion angle wont be known. As long as your getting a negative angle reading between the two of 3* to 5* or so. The U joints will do thier job and you wont notice anything most likely.

With a modified car such as yours, I think one can see you wouldnt want to measure it off the Shaft.

Your current measurements between the shaft and pinion give you a neg/-14*


Your current measurements between the tranny centerline and pinion give you a neg/-9*


Both sets of numbers are telling you, that your pinion angle is to far negative. If your measurments are "correct"

With your combo you dont want your pinion angle set to a positive angle. On Your ride, I wouldnt use the Shaft.

If you do, You may get a Shaft Attack.

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I went off the rossler chart and mine is 6 degrees down on SS springs but i think you might need a little less with caltracs.
Mick

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using my numbers and the Rossler chart -- what do you come up with ?

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-3

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Kevin....Talked to Steve this morning...Just haul it up to Ames and put it on the rack..You guys will be done in no time!! PS...Enjoy this beautiful day we are having!

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haha ...... i was trying to get all the opinions and methods covered here so i could "pick a number "

i dont like to bother steve and jim too much - i know they are busy --they dont even have time to work on THEIR cars right now.


however.....ive never aligned this car yet..

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this thread went like i thought....



tried this tonight :
http://www.wolferacecraft.com/pinionangle.aspx


i got 5 degrees down

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Wolf only builds the fastest stock suspension cars in the country and your going to listen to them

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(Why did I let myself get drawn into this mess?)
Motor/transmission center line in relation to pinion center line = proper way to measure. Not too difficult, some don't get it. Some will argue till the moon turns to swiss cheese. physics says this is the proper way to cancel change in speed due to an angled joint. Run the joints ninety degrees to each other, all is good if the trans and diff are close to parallel. Some angle is needed to properly keep the joints lubed and keep the needles from flattening due to being at the same spot all the time. If the engine/trans measurement didn't matter, then the diff angle wouldn't either. Run one too far out of alignment, you get broken trans parts. I will try and load a photo.
If the trans is pointing down and the diff is pointing down, add them. If either is going a different direction, subtract the smaller angle from the larger. If both are pointing up, fix em.

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thats how i set mine also, i don't use the driveshaft. this is also the way Calvert recommends.

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Same here aswell

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What happens when you use that method to set the pinion angle in a car with the rearend higher than the transmission?

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With the pinion rotating upward from a DS thats going in a downward direction too the trans tailshaft i would say you'd be screwed, to me thats a + angle, unless the trans tailshaft rotated up & the rearend stayed stationary . The way i set mine, I put my trans tailshaft at 0, then i ajust the rearend nose down to where i want it, Now if i measure the -3 on the nose, & measure the downward angle on the driveshft (which still is a - angle, It could add up to -6-7, so i just ignore the driveshaft angle.

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The answer is simple.

Make the pinion parallel to the transmission as a baseline, then rotate the pinion downward 2-4 degrees and weld the perches/brackets.

Unless the vehicle is severely raised, this method works every time for applications with 2-joint driveshafts.

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[In MR.Pbodies car, he built his engine/tranny driveline paralell to the pinion. He and anyone else who does the same can accurately set the pinion angle off the Shaft.

People with Unmolested drivetrains can set the pinion angle off the shaft and still not have problems. Though the accuracy of the true pinion angle wont be known. As long as your getting a negative angle reading between the two of 3* to 5* or so. The U joints will do thier job and you wont notice anything most likely.

With a modified car such as yours, I think one can see you wouldnt want to measure it off the Shaft.



Your current measurements between the shaft and pinion give you a neg/-14*


Your current measurements between the tranny centerline and pinion give you a neg/-9*




""
Both sets of numbers are telling you, that your pinion angle is to far negative. If your measurments are "correct"""

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well, either way ive got too much angle

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SO,,,,,,,,

Im at 8 degrees down ......


agree ?

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Yes, From these numbers, your 8* down from tranny to pinion.

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Kevin I think you have finally found your true calling

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Al -- are you making fun of my amazing artwork ???? !!! ???

HOW DARE YOU !!

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If you go by the trans/diff way its 8*... which is
too much
EDIT
most of the cast yokes have a tapper cast into the
area you show the protractor....you would have a truer
reading on the front surface where the bolts mount

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most stock mopars i have checked, the trans is pointing down. and your 727 is really ugly

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Im very hurt by your comments .....sitting in a pool of my own tears ........

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most stock mopars i have checked, the trans is pointing down. and your 727 is really ugly

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Core shift ....

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Probably stupid questions compared to yours but I was wondering:

I am going to install the Hotchkis Leaf springs, does it change significantly the amount of pinion angle I should try to get?

What about snubbers setting for street cars, would you adjust them to become in contact at 1 degree? 0 degree?

Also, I've read somewhere that when you remove a driveshaft from the transmission you have to put it back at the same place in order to be in phase... I really don't understand this, is in it how the driveshaft is welded together that determine the phasing and not how you clock the yoke in the transmission?

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