Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big block?
[Re: 440Jim]
#967782
04/06/11 09:34 PM
04/06/11 09:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873
Chicken coop
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Quote:
A mid 70's Challenger full street interior, etc. will weigh a lot. Depending I am thinking 3600-3800 lbs. That makes running 10.50 a lot tougher, and needs more power/torque.
Our '72 Challenger all metal, full interior street car weighs 3,340 pounds.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big block?
[Re: dustergirl340]
#967783
04/06/11 09:45 PM
04/06/11 09:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Quote:
A mid 70's Challenger full street interior, etc. will weigh a lot. Depending I am thinking 3600-3800 lbs. That makes running 10.50 a lot tougher, and needs more power/torque.
Our '72 Challenger all metal, full interior street car weighs 3,340 pounds.
stop saying that. your going to give every e body guy a complex.
i'm 3500 with lots of weight removed
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big block?
[Re: HotRodDave]
#967784
04/06/11 09:53 PM
04/06/11 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Generally a small block (by virtue of its superior head design, i.e, Valve angle, position in the bore, port area for nominal displacement) will make more horsepower per cube than a B/RB. By that I simply mean starting in stock form it's easier to make a 400 horse 340 than it is to make a 515 horse 440 (same hp per cube). But most economical is to start with more cubes without stroking so it's easier to make say a 515 horse 440 than it is to build a 475 horse stroker 408, (again same hp/cube) so starting with a bigger motor to start is most economical. $1 in the heads is worth $3 in the shortblock, it's a good rule of thumb, and so if that shortblock is already bigger you're that much ahead. My fwiw, You can build a bullet proof stock stroke steel crank 440 that will make 600 hp easier than you can build a 550 horse 408 stroker out of a 360, $1 in the heads is worth 3 in the shortblock. Best bang for the buck for ~600 horse is a zero deck ~11:1 steel crank 440 with well ported indy SR heads that flow about 335-340 on the intake, a good solid cam in the 255/260 @.050 range and .560 to .580-ish lift cut on 108 in at 105, 1 7/8 or 2" headers, full 3" exhaust, a good ported single plane (or ported indy dual plane) intake, and at least an 850 double pumper. ( a 950 will be better up top) I'd say this would compare in HP/ET to about a 565 horse 408 in the same car with very well ported E heads. the difference is you can build the 440 for less. Strokers are great but there's absolutely nothing wrong with a solidly built well thought out 'old school' 440 600 horses could put a 3400 pound (with driver) car in the mid 10's but the stall and chassis need to be dialed dead-on and you can't do it with 3.55 gears. (4.10's) The basic motor I've lined out (one I've built several times) will make about 630 or 1.4 hp/cube, and peak power right around 6100-6200 with very strong torque. I don't think you could build a 408 with comparable power per cube (and you'd actually need more per cube since the motor is only about 60 pound lighter) for the same $$$. A good builder could get close with (for example) a set of well ported econo w2's and a cast crank to save $$$.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big block?
[Re: Streetwize]
#967785
04/06/11 10:37 PM
04/06/11 10:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,509 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
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A collage of whims
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I know of a Challenger, street trim, 500"BB, OOTB Eddys, relatively small cam, 727, 3.23, 28" tire, that runs in the 11s. Shifter in D. Hardly trying, so to speak. Seems for a SB combo to pull that off without more converter & gear it would have to be WELL into the 400" range. It's gonna take a lot of torque to pull that tall gear into the 10.50s. Now, if the car could be lightened up a bunch, or you could live with more converter & gear, a big SB would close that gap some. The turbo or Vortech path is also a valid consideration, but hurts the bragging rights if you know what I mean.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: topside]
#967786
04/06/11 10:56 PM
04/06/11 10:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
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Renton Wa
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318/340/360, your choice. Forged internals, ported edelbrocks, $600 dollar S475. Mild camshaft, 12-14 lbs boost will easily make 650-700 horse. Should easily go mid 10's, and turbo cars lovvvvve tall gears.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: topfueldart]
#967787
04/07/11 11:41 AM
04/07/11 11:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,478 Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Kalispell Mt.
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Turbos are not simple, lots of plumbing of intake and exhaust, any free space under the hood is gone, lots of heat under the hood, got to have the right blow off valves, ignition timing becomes a lot more critical... lots more complicated. You have to have some kind of head turbo or not, econo W2s are very reasonable, got to have some kind of crank weather turbo or not and 4.25 is very reasonable for a big block or small block, you got to have rods and pistons weather it is turbo or not, a nice stroker can be had for either one very easily and if you are building a bottom end to handle 15lbs of boost it will not cost any more to build a big stroker with out the added complexity up top. As for the weight differance in BB and SB I was stateing the weight differance I personally measured between a 67 440/727 and a 71 340/904 (I know a 340 never came with a 904 but the one from a 318 bolts right up ) both still had the iron intakes iron heads... and the differance between the two was almost exactly #200 a low deck might be a little closer but I did not have one to weigh.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: HotRodDave]
#967788
04/07/11 11:59 AM
04/07/11 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,088 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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I Live Here
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I have gone 10.30s at 3450 lbs with a stroked (535) rb, 11/1 compression and a 590 cam with 1.7 rockers. I doubt it will take much more than that to go 10.50s at 3700 (?) lbs. That motor had ported 906 heads (280 cfm flow tops?), and pistons way down the hole. Fairly cheap stuff, from my perspective. With the availability of cheap heads that will flow 300 cfm with nothing more than a bowl port, I don't see how a small block can compete. Even if you have heads that flow as well, less cubes will raise the rpms. My deal was shifted at 5700 rpm. I doubt a small block stroker can compare to that. A very tight converter and a set of 3.54 or 3.73 gears and you should get there. I ran 4.10s with a 33 inch tall slick to go 131 mph with that 535. You just can't beat big cubes for a streeter.
8.582, 160.18 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: HotRodDave]
#967789
04/07/11 04:37 PM
04/07/11 04:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,325 Löffingen, Germany
The_Mean_Machine
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,325
Löffingen, Germany
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Quote:
As for the weight differance in BB and SB I was stateing the weight differance I personally measured between a 67 440/727 and a 71 340/904 (I know a 340 never came with a 904 but the one from a 318 bolts right up ) both still had the iron intakes iron heads... and the differance between the two was almost exactly #200 a low deck might be a little closer but I did not have one to weigh.
would you mind posting the total weight of those combos?
Btw, very intresting thread, first I thought it will be a SB/BB contest, but lots of good info here. Moparts is still the best place to hang around to learn... Greetings, Frank
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: HotRodDave]
#967790
04/07/11 07:32 PM
04/07/11 07:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
master
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master
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Renton Wa
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Quote:
Turbos are not simple, lots of plumbing of intake and exhaust, any free space under the hood is gone, lots of heat under the hood, got to have the right blow off valves, ignition timing becomes a lot more critical... lots more complicated.
As for the weight differance in BB and SB I was stateing the weight differance I personally measured between a 67 440/727 and a 71 340/904 (I know a 340 never came with a 904 but the one from a 318 bolts right up ) both still had the iron intakes iron heads... and the differance between the two was almost exactly #200 a low deck might be a little closer but I did not have one to weigh.
Disagree. 200lbs is a ton, there's alot of cost involved in swapping to a big block, and you don't need an aftermarket crank to make 650 boosted horsepower. Bottom line as stated by others is a 3600 plus driver car will need 650 horse or better (with 3.55's to boot) to go 10.50, it takes a pretty serious stroked SB to make that power, call Ryan and price out a 'budget' 700hp SB, and a 375 horse smallblock with boost will do the same thing with ease, and be tons more streetable. There are many ways to skin a cat, blow off valves and turbos are very simple once you learn the basics, especially if you have any fab abilities at all.
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: topfueldart]
#967791
04/07/11 07:46 PM
04/07/11 07:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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master
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Weddington, N.C.
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a 904 is a lot lighter than a 727, (I'm guessing 40 pounds) but an aluminum head/WPH and intake big block is maybe 90 pounds more than a comparable aluminum small block, I don't see 200 pounds combined though, maybe 140? Pretty sure my 517 low deck is as light or lighter than an all aron 340. I do know that Small block iron heads are typically 2 pounds heavier than a BB and possibly the intakes (iron or aluminum) are heavier as well. The iron Small block w/caps is about 60 pounds lighter (~165 vs 225 w/caps)
Last edited by Streetwize; 04/07/11 07:50 PM.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big block?
[Re: moparniac]
#967793
04/07/11 09:07 PM
04/07/11 09:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 941 Texas, USA
ChrgrCuda
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2008
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Texas, USA
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Wow, all this talk about how easy BB's are to get all that power out of makes me excited to get my 505 Indy Headed Charger fired up. However, I can say with experience, and yes I'm lighter, but my eddy headed very simple 408 full interior street legal 68 Cuda goes 10.86 @ 120. Yes I'm lighter, not sure how much, but I'm sure I'm at 3200 lbs. Pump gas also. Nothing exotic, and should go 10.70's after my winter updates. As of now, I say really well thought out SB stroker is what I would opt for. Remember, you still want to be able to turn every now and then. I've yet to ride in a BB A-body that doesn't plow when turning. But,yes, you have an E body. Sorry for the long rant.
68 Cuda Notchback [Email]10.86@120[/Email]
69 Charger R/T 440/505
2009 Challenger SRT8
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: moparniac]
#967794
04/07/11 09:08 PM
04/07/11 09:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,697 Renton Wa
topfueldart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
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Renton Wa
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Quote:
Quote:
Assuming a race weight of 3850, 10.50 ETs need 657 hp. Lets say you settle on a figure of 680 hp as what you want so you have a little margin. You can do that with a stroked big block with a set of ported SR heads.
I ran the MW Indy EZs done by jeff at MCH... would have ran better with more tuning and cool weather also.... was a small solid roller with 248/254@50 .650 lift range...
Just out of curiousity, how much $ is just a set of MW EZ heads prepped by Modern? 3k? 3500?? I really don't have a clue...
11.48 @ 120 with a 1.80 60' 318, stock 1.88 heads, stock 904, Pump Gas, 13 lbs of boost.
9.94 @ 134, 318 on pump gas, 14 lbs w/ Eddies, transbrake 727, 3600 lbs, 3.54 gear and 28's.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: dmking]
#967796
04/07/11 10:57 PM
04/07/11 10:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Lynchburg, VA
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Why is it every few weeks someone starts a post like this? Then everyone who does BB's post how they think it is the best. Then the SB guys come back with their proof of how fast some of these engines are.
Personally I like the small block. All out race efforts the small blocks are really strong especially in a weight to cubic inch enviroment.
But, I can not ignore that Muscle Motors has a Predator combo for $20,000. That stuff really makes some go.
Class racing BB has to carry more weight. A RB has to carry 200 lbs on the front over a SB. I know I have ran both in the same truck. 5,300 with a stock 360 and 5,500 with a stock 440. The 440 was a better engine in the truck.
Carry on with your pointless arguements.
I've traveled all over the eastern US showing what my Small Blocks can do. I think the performance of my 468 small block speaks for itself.
PS. A 8.8 deck small block is still 200 lbs lighter than your low deck BB. Another pointless arguement.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: dmking]
#967798
04/07/11 11:26 PM
04/07/11 11:26 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864 IN
Irun5snd8th
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IN
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Does your small block Ford buddy happen to be driving a Fox body Mustang?
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: dmking]
#967799
04/07/11 11:28 PM
04/07/11 11:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Lynchburg, VA
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Sure.
When I first built, it was a 457. Only bored 4.200". I bought the block from Arrington ($1,900). The heads from Patterson ($3,500). Cam tunnel done by Precision Products ($300) and the rest of the block at Tim Davis'(just over $1,000). The cost including the fogger system($600) was less than $10,000. I already had the LA enterprises crank but only paid $1,500 for it second hand but never used. The Jesel rocker system traded even for another set bought on Ebay for $200.
That engine really came together well and a lot of deals just worked out. I worked my butt off building it and only paid labor on block work.
I have a lot more invested in the 421 CID engine in the car now. Mostly because I paid for a complete shortblock. I had to completely redo.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Which makes more power per $$? Stroker SB or big bl
[Re: B1Fish540]
#967801
04/08/11 12:01 AM
04/08/11 12:01 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864 IN
Irun5snd8th
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master
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IN
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Doug Sloan where you at? He has street driven Cuda that just ran 10.53 a couple weeks ago.
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
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