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46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) #961847
03/29/11 06:50 PM
03/29/11 06:50 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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I've been doing some research about this recently, and I think it's very feasible. I can also foresee more demand for something like this as the supply of RH transmissions start to dry up. This controller would allow any vehicle to run an RE transmission.

Work won't begin on this for another couple months as I want to get the fan controller going well first, but I would like to get everything figured out for this in the meantime.

Quote:

The governor pressure sensor measures output pressure of the governor pressure solenoid valve. This feedback is needed by the PCM to accurately control pressure. The unit is an absolute pressure device and the output is calibrated to be .35 to .65 volts at 14.7 psi (normal barometric pressure).

The (governor pressure) solenoid valve regulates line pressure to produce governor pressure. The average current supplied to the solenoid valve controls governor pressure. One amp current produces zero psi governor pressure. Zero amps sets the maximum governor pressure.

The purpose of the transmission temperature sensor is to provide transmission fluid temperature information to the PCM. The PCM uses this information to control engagement of the fourth gear overdrive clutch, the converter clutch, and governor pressure. The normal resistance value for the thermistor at room temperature is approximately 1000 ohms for transmissions built prior to the 2002 model year. The resistance value for late model transmissions has been increased to 2000 ohms.




From what I understand, the governor pressure just controls the shift timing in association with the TV cable, and is otherwise regulated to 1psi/1mph. The actual shifting from 1-2, and 2-3 is handled hydraulically by the transmission; there aren't shift solenoids I would need to control. There are also 4 different governor pressure curves depending on the temperature of the fluid, WOT, or if the tcase is in 4LO. I found a little information about these in the manual I have. Does anyone have specific details of what these are, or what they should be?

So, I think all the controller has to do is take the speedometer signal as an input, then use feedback to control the governor pressure. Add some more logic to control overdrive and lock up, and it should work pretty well. I came across some information in a 46RE manual about how to calibrate the pressure sensor, and it's rather straightforward. I believe the controller would also need manifold vacuum input to get the engine load.

As for the speed input, the RE trans I have has an electronic output that I can read just fine. The RH I have is a 4wd model, and I don't have the tcase to know whether it's also electronic, or if it drives a cable. To swap this into an older vehicle I may need to make another box that takes the electronic speedo signal and then spins the speedo cable accordingly. There's one company making this already, but it isn't cheap.

The pinout of the connector on the trans should include the following, probably with a power and ground as well.
Trans fluid temp sensor
Governor pressure sensor
Governor pressure solenoid
O/D (3-4) Shift Solenoid
TCC Solenoid
Output Speed Sensor
Park/Neutral Switch

Does anyone know exactly which pin is which? From the looks of the replacement parts on ebay, I can get one and then figure out which pin goes where. Also, does anyone know the part number of the matching connector for the body side of the harness (or if it's even available)?

I'm kinda aiming for a price point around $500. If there's sufficient interest I'll continue and see what I can come up with


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961848
03/29/11 07:21 PM
03/29/11 07:21 PM
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Andrewh Offline
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isn't this another place where it would be easier to ask someone to pull data while driving with your new ociliscope?

Due to the large number of sensors, temp, speed, pressure, etc..
seems you have to use factory pieces, so why re-invent the wheel?
or is it just that difficult which is why no one else bothered? or low volume?

Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: Andrewh] #961849
03/29/11 07:50 PM
03/29/11 07:50 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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To be honest, it really seems pretty simple. Calibrate and read the speed sensor, and adjust the governor pressure from there. Some logic to turn OD & LU on/off. The hard part will be the physical housing it's held in.

Ideally a board member would have access to and be willing to test it on a transmission dyno, but everything up to then can be done on paper.

I think the reason there aren't any other controller yet, is the same thing that plagues most mopar stuff: low volume.


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961850
03/29/11 07:59 PM
03/29/11 07:59 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel Offline
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The connector pin-outs can be found in the FSM section 8W-80. A glance at the fluid flow diagrams in the same FSM will show how the governor pressure acts on the shift valves and how throttle pressure interacts.

IMO the ideal controller would have adjustable governor pressure curves to emulate the numerous mechanical governor configurations of the old mechanical governor. For example, the old troubleshooting numbers of 10 psi governor pressure for every 10 mph is just general, the lightweight HP governors had different pressure values so as to shift later at WOT.


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Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: John_Kunkel] #961851
03/29/11 09:06 PM
03/29/11 09:06 PM
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Balt. Md
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I used to use the gov pressure is about the same as road speed to test gov press but I found these tranny's to be off just a little but they actually use the trans output shaft sensor to determine gov press. The factory will have lock-up even in 2cd gear on the newer ones but you could just do it in 3rd or od and use a certain speed to be above for lock-up. Same with od as it will have to be in 3rd and above so much speed for od to engage. Good luck with it , Ron

Last edited by 383man; 03/29/11 09:06 PM.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961852
03/30/11 08:37 AM
03/30/11 08:37 AM
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USA
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360view Offline
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I think the controller project is a good one.

I would also point out that around 1998-1999 the factory PCM software for one year in the Ram locked up the TCC in 2nd gear, most probably as a slight MPG improvement.

However, there were so many additional customer complaints about 'jerkiness' during extra customer-felt TCC lockups that at least one flash came out so the dealerships could do away with this feature for customer satisfaction.

So... if you build a standalone 46RE controller you might be able to
HONESTLY advertise it
as a MPG improvement device for Ram and Dakota pickups, particularly for city driving.

I would also estimate that at least
15-30% of Ram/Dakota owners really dislike how their 46RE drops out of Overdrive gear on highway hills and makes a noisy shift down to 3rd.

These owners might like a box that instead would let the torque converter clutch slip while hill climbing in OD rather than totally down-shift to 3rd.

I notice that the trans controller software on later model (2005+) Chrysler mini-van automatic transmissions now do this on most highway grades less than 4%

Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: 360view] #961853
03/30/11 11:19 AM
03/30/11 11:19 AM
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Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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May be able to save you a lot of time.

The Megasquirt guys have been working on a universal standalone solution. There are 2 versions of this. One using the GPIO board, which is a generic board with a ton of inputs and outputs.
http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/index.html

There is an old thread on the GPIO forums about the RE transmissions but it looks to be dead for now.

The MSExtra guys have a solution using the existing hardware of MS2 or Microsquirt.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html#trans

Hope this might help..


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: John_Kunkel] #961854
03/30/11 03:15 PM
03/30/11 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,857
Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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Quote:


The connector pin-outs can be found in the FSM section 8W-80. A glance at the fluid flow diagrams in the same FSM will show how the governor pressure acts on the shift valves and how throttle pressure interacts.

IMO the ideal controller would have adjustable governor pressure curves to emulate the numerous mechanical governor configurations of the old mechanical governor. For example, the old troubleshooting numbers of 10 psi governor pressure for every 10 mph is just general, the lightweight HP governors had different pressure values so as to shift later at WOT.




So would having a knob to adjust the ratio work alright? Rotate it to select 1.1psi/mph, 1.2, 1.3, 0.9, 0.8, etc? I'd like to avoid a windows program to change parameters (if possible).

This is the manual I have right now (as well as the ATSG one). I'm still looking for an actual Dodge FSM.
http://bellsouthpwp2.net/t/h/thegobbells/dodge/Transmission/46re-manual.pdf


For OD & LU points, I was going to basically emulate what is done with the RH swaps. OD over Xmph, and LU over Ymph. Once vacuum drops too much, take it out of LU, and even more, drop it out of OD (?). Have some inputs for switches to manually turn those off as well.

Between that and options to apply lock up in 2nd, maybe I will need a configuration program.

I may borrow a few ideas from the MS stuff, but I think I'd rather do my own hardware than hack onto theirs. I'm aiming for more or less an easy swap and install, and I really don't want to build their boards with all the through hole components Surface mount is actually much easier for me to deal with.

I've seen a little on how increasing the Line Pressure can have benefits for towing, but I don't think I have any way to control that, nor would just increasing governor pressure have any real benefits for towing (right?). Or rather, if the user manually increases their line pressure, then the governor pressure needs to be increased as well, correct? Maybe even another input for a separate line pressure sensor


Thanks for the replies


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961855
03/30/11 06:13 PM
03/30/11 06:13 PM
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Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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The Microsquirt is SMD and comes pre-assembled, with a wiring harness for around $400. That will work with the Extra code. I agree the GPIO would be a pain with soldering, but I did the MS engine controller before they came out with v3.57 (SMD) so it isn't that hard. If you need any pages out of the 99 FSM let me know and I'll scan em. Fortunately I'm using an RH in my truck, so I added a governor pressure sender and let the MS control LU/OD. So far so good but could use some fine tuning.


Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: herkamer] #961856
04/01/11 12:26 AM
04/01/11 12:26 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
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Salem
Grizzly Offline
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If any of you guys can figure out a way to keep a 545rfe from downshifting while coasting downhill, I'll buy it!


Mo' Farts

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Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: Grizzly] #961857
04/01/11 04:16 PM
04/01/11 04:16 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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Quote:

If any of you guys can figure out a way to keep a 545rfe from downshifting while coasting downhill, I'll buy it!




Actually I think ATS Diesel makes a piggyback TCC controller thing that would do just that. I'm intending this to be a controller for a swap into an older vehicle without an ECU to keep happy.

Quote:

If you need any pages out of the 99 FSM let me know and I'll scan em.


If you could get me a scan of the page with the connector pinout, that would be great! (section 8W-80 apparently)

This is the first I've heard of the Microsquirt, and it does look interesting.


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961858
04/01/11 06:11 PM
04/01/11 06:11 PM
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HotRodDave Offline
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I think adjusting the govenor preasure on the fly would be an awesome feture. it would work really good for modified engines and rear gear ratios... just like the different weights are available for different combos.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: HotRodDave] #961859
04/01/11 07:53 PM
04/01/11 07:53 PM
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Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer Offline
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I figured starting with the Microsquirt wouldn't be too bad since there isn't that many inputs and outputs needed to control the trans. Bonus is that it comes with the wiring.

8W-80-6 attached, this is the connector side.

6562888-8w-80-6.jpg (4470 downloads)

Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961860
09/20/11 07:54 PM
09/20/11 07:54 PM
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quebec canada
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kingofkaz Offline
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if you are really makeing a standalone controller when can i get one????

Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: kingofkaz] #961861
02/11/12 06:57 PM
02/11/12 06:57 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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Bump


With the Fan Controller shipping now, I figure I should take another look at this project.

At this point I'm working on a different project that will have a USB connection to a windows program, and that may be the easiest way to configure this controller as well. Be able to customize OD/LU speeds, pressure settings, etc. I just need to know what settings would need to be customizable.

So, post up a wishlist of features you'd like to see, and I'll see what I can come up with


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: hooziewhatsit] #961862
02/12/12 02:58 AM
02/12/12 02:58 AM
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Salem
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Just a heads up Hoozie, the RE's also require an input from the throttle position sensor.

TV cable setup also has to be very precise or apparently can cause transmission damage.


Mo' Farts

Moderated by "tbagger".
Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: Grizzly] #961863
02/12/12 05:48 PM
02/12/12 05:48 PM
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Rio Linda, CA
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The factory transmission controller uses a signal from the TPS but I don't think that would be necessary for a stand-alone controller, all the transmission needs is a governor pressure signal and commands to lockup the converter and engage the OD. The RH conversions that use pressure switches on the governor pressure test port function by road speed and I think a stand-alone controller could too.

The major challenge, as I see it, is to determine what voltage equates to what governor pressure and how many pulses from the output shaft speed sensor equate to what road speed.

If this can be pulled off it will make a lot of previously unusable RE's usable for retrofits....hope it happens.


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Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: John_Kunkel] #961864
02/12/12 06:31 PM
02/12/12 06:31 PM
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gdonovan Offline
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Actually I have been kicking around the idea of a PIC based controller for the RH transmissions. I'd like to come up with something less crude than a few pressure switches.

Gary

Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: gdonovan] #961865
02/12/12 06:45 PM
02/12/12 06:45 PM
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this would definitely increase the available trans to swap...

Re: 46RE standalone controller (I think I'll design one) [Re: John_Kunkel] #961866
02/12/12 07:09 PM
02/12/12 07:09 PM
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Oregon
hooziewhatsit Offline OP
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Quote:


The factory transmission controller uses a signal from the TPS but I don't think that would be necessary for a stand-alone controller, all the transmission needs is a governor pressure signal and commands to lockup the converter and engage the OD. The RH conversions that use pressure switches on the governor pressure test port function by road speed and I think a stand-alone controller could too.

The major challenge, as I see it, is to determine what voltage equates to what governor pressure and how many pulses from the output shaft speed sensor equate to what road speed.




Exactly. The mechanical governor increases the output pressure according to road speed. Knowing the stock pulses/mile I can convert that to a road speed, then I use feedback to make the governor pressure match according to the chosen curve. Of course the nifty thing is that relationship (governor pressure to road speed) can be changed on the fly and/or customized by the user.

Wouldn't it also be handy to have a sensor for line pressure as well? Or at least a way to account for higher than stock line pressures?


An RH controller would just have to read the governor pressure and manifold pressure, then allow the user to change the pressure/vacuum points to control when LU and OD occur.


If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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