Changed the title again for more hits.
Read the last couple of posts on what I figured out. If you bought the painless kit to run the stock efi on a magnum 360, which would you rather do to get it to work.

Okay, while working on the car last night, I realized there might be a problem.

Painless put a water temp sensor in this stand pipe.
This is for a heater hose and goes to the heater core.
Now all the mopars I have ever owned shut the water off completely to the heater core unless you are running heat. Which I do not plan on doing.
So if I am thinking this through properly, that will never read acurate coolant temps.

Where else can you put this sensor?

here is a sensor in the intake. Has a grey plastic body.
Anyone know what it is for?

nevermind about the grey sensor. Found out it is the air temp for sure.

Still need ideas on where to mount the other sensor though.
Somewhere in the mag motor that has coolant flow all the time.
I also thought about the bypass hose, but it is in such a bad place under all the mounting stuff I can't see using it.

Has to be something simple so anyone who does this swap can do it.

Worst case is to enlarge the original sensor hole and tap it to put it there, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that if they bought a plug and play efi kit.

I've seen lots of applications (think 80's smog vacuum hose spaghetti) that put a TCS in the upper radiator hose neck (aka thermostat housing).

One hole in the housing tapped with pipe threads. Heck, some of those housings are almost universal when it comes to footprint on the bottom and hose size of the neck.

found a chevy housing spacer with taps in it. I will look to see if there is enough room to put a sensor down there since it is tucked away so far.
Thanks for the idea.

Do the heater hoses need to be connected for the coolant to circulate properly? If not, why not just pull the standpipe and put the sensor in that hole? On my M1 manifold, the CTS is under the A/C compressor. Not convenient, but how often do you have to replace a CTS? There's a hole in the A/C compressor bracket, but I don't know what that's for since I don't have a full factory setup on my Valiant and the CTS doesn't line up with it on the M1.

Why not run heat? The CAA underdash unit should be set up for it, and you KNOW you're going to want to drive that Vert on a nice December day...

Clair

The pipe is in the hole for the heater hose from the pump. They put that t in so they could put in a temp sensor.

As for heat, sure in Dec, but not on a day like today.

So here are my two options so far.
They make a spacer that bolts up at the thermostat housing and has two holes set up for sensors. That runs anywhere from 25-37 bucks.

The second choice is to run a couple of t splices into the heater hose and have the t run offs at say 1/4 inch or smaller so there is some flow for the sensor. I don't expect this to run much more than 15 bucks. But that also means having that pipe and t section added to put in the sensor.

If you had to do one of these for the conversion to keep the efi, which would you do?

Is there not a hole on the other side of the thermostat housing? see pic intake is off a 99 ram and the same for my 95.

That sensor is still in place. They are using gm style sensors that are at least 1/4inch, but I think they are 1/2inch npt that do not fit in that hole.

The have asked if I was willing to drill and tap the hole for the sensor, but I don't think that is a good idea for a conversion plug and play kit.
A lot of people won't have that ablity. Plus I don't want to have to buy new gaskets and bolts.

But if I can't find a better solution, then that will be what I have to do.

use a adapter 1/8 1/4?? to 1/2 npt fitting to up the size to what you need and cap the other one off tell you need heat.

looks like they want it in the intake. So I will have to drill it out after all.

Will their sensor pigtail not physically plug in to the Mopar/Magnum temp sensor? They (or you) should check some of the earlier model sensors, as I think some of the connectors changed over the years, particularly between the OBD-I and OBD-II years. I know this is true about the TPS and MAP sensors, or at least that's been my experience hooking all the various parts up to my Frankinjection system on the Valiant.

If nothing else, Painless should supply the sensor ends to work with the Mopar sensors that are native to the engine. I mean, they sell WIRING HARNESSES, they can make this happen. Sensor output should be identical, so I doubt that's going to be an issue. I'm not bashing Painless at all, but let's take a look at the product they're trying to make, the engine it's going to be hooked up to, and the folks that they want to buy it. Use the stock Magnum sensors...

Clair

They are using gm style sensors everywhere.
I guess I can ask.

their response was that the analog ranges are different, so they are using the gm ones for the computer.

when you tap it out go slow or it might chew the intake up. or have a shop do it for you. I have a 99 intake that i can send you if needed.

Good luck

Thanks.
I am going to try it without pulling the intake.
I will pull the thermostat housing and get something under where I plan on putting the hole to get the chips so I don't have to flush it out.

use some grease too, it will hold the chips.

and the npt taps are tappered so dont go to far or you will have a loose hole

Thanks for that tip. Didn't think about that, so I would have threaded it all the way through.

The CTS sensor response is definitely different between Mopar and GM (see www.msefi.com for the exact response curves of each). My CTS is a GM one (with the single blade connector sticking out) that cost about $0.50 at a local junkyard. It fits in a perfect sized hole in my M1 intake directly under the A/C bracket. I simply bent the blade in the direction of where I needed to plug in the CTS signal wire connector. BTW I fabbed up the harness and computer (MegaSquirt) by hand in a few hours so if this redneck can do it w/junkyard parts then surely someone armed w/the power of "Painless Wiring" can do it...

Problem is I am using the stock barrel intake. There are no extra holes as far as I can see.
The hole it is sitting in now is actually for the heater hose.
It would bolt in there, but then I would not have a heater.

I have asked if it makes sense for a plug and play controler to require you to drill and tap your intake, but the guy in charge was pretty adament about doing it that way after I pointed out there would be no flow at that hose if I didn't have my heater turned on.

Basically he needs an accurate temp for warm up and start up runs, and so he can cut it back lean when the engine heats up.

My guess is they are shooting for performance and fuel economy in the same package.

Just sticking it in a closed system will take awhile for it to get to temp, and it would take awhile to go from hot to cold. Not a very real reading.

interesting. your picture shows the stock wts in a blank on my intake. It has a raised pad there, so I will drill to put the new one there.
The stock one is on the other side of the heater hose tap away from the thermostat housing.

Well, I figured out where I screwed up on my ASSumption that the Chrysler CTS was the same as the GM parts. I ASSumed that they reacted the same, since the MAP and TPS generally do (as long as you make sure the wiring outputs are correct). In fact, the Chrysler CTS relies on some code in the PCM and some switched resistors to give the PCM the coolant temp info it needs. Basically, the PCM uses one resistor set to get very accurate temp data up to about 125*F, then switches to another resistor set to get very accurate temp data above 125*F. I found this information here:

http://www.kemparts.com/TechTalk/tt14.asp

So, my bad on making what amounted to a wild-a$$ed guess that Chrysler would do something as simply as GM did...

I still think they COULD set up the temp/ohm table to reflect the Chrysler sensor values, since Megasquirt can handle that pretty easily. My other question is, what other CTS units are out there that provide the response curve Painless wants, but fit the Chrysler location? Adding a $20 sensor to their kit would be a nice solution compared to drilling/tapping the manifold or cobbling together a squirrelly-looking stand pipe.

Sorry for the confusion, but at least I learned something...

Clair

well with the drilling for a new port, I can get rid of the stand pipe.

I guess the location of that sensor changes year to year.
In a different post, someone posted a pic of it to the right of the thermostat housing.
Mine is to the left of the stand pipe where the heater hose comes in to the manifold.
on the right of the thermostat housing is a raised flat place I plan on putting the new sensor.
So it shouldn't look as cobbled together as it did originally.

I think I can even do it without popping the intake off.
There doesn't seem to be anything on the otherside of it, so I am stuffing a rag behind it to catch the chips and shavings so I can drill and tap it on the block.
It is fairly easy with the thermostat out and the front of the motor off the engine.

What computer are they planning on useing? Why would they not make a harness to hook the mopar computer to the mopar engine? With a GM computer it will need programming just to run the bone stock engine not to mention souped up engines. At least the mopar computer would work with the mopar engine and then the whole what sensor, where to drill and tap crap would be a moot point. And there are plenty of shops that can program the mopar computer as well as many off the shelf controlers for mildly modified engines. Name me one Bone stock GM compurter that will run a bone stock 5.9 properly with out programing. I thought the whole deal was to make it "Painless"

It isn't a gm computer. They are using gm style sensors.
They gave me a set for water temp and air temp. They put on a knock sensor and that is it.

You could put the air temp sensor where the original one is, but he asked for it to be put in the air intake flow, so I am putting it in the air cleaner.

When they test fired the engine, they ran the cts in the stand pipe and looped it back to the inlet of the wp.

When I put the engine in my car, I realized that would not work since I don't turn on my heat.
So now he has asked me to drill and tap the intake to put the temp sensor in.

It is painless's computer, and they are reprogramming it so you can just hook it up to the injectors, coil, and distributer.
Add a bracket for something near the coil, put something in the distributer, and add the 3 sensors and you can fire it up.

I would not call it painful, just a little more than I expected. But way better than any of the diy and cheaper than any of the other store bought efi systems.

after all I am dropping it into a 65 coronet. I get the efi and serpentine belt setup to boot.

Not defending per se, just saying I don't think it is that bad. I would rather not have to drill and tap the intake, but it looks like I was going to have to anyway so my stock gauge would work anyway. So not as big a deal as I thought.

I also would like them to use the stock sensors, but they don't seem interested in that at this time.

I was under the impression they were makeing a harness to hook a factory style computer so any one could hook up EFI, I guess that is sort of what they are doing but useing there own computer adding to the $$$ per sale and subtracting from there # of sales.

Is there any harness available to take a JY engine and JY computer and hook it easily and directly into an older car? Shouldn't be that hard for one of the wiring gu-roos to whip up and sell a ton of

On another subject why is a dead head EFI a bad thing? Why should we all run return lines?

There is no solution like that as I understand it.
Multiple problems occur due to the sensors that are missing or not used by the jy computer.

I just got off the phone with painless after asking about the mapping of the stock sensors. Apparently a sore subject. They have been down this road with the ford guys and they still use gm sensors.
The months of time it would take to map out the old sensors and get them working is not worth the 30 bucks the end user saves.

Dead head vs return line is a whole different debate, and has several reasons for not running dead head as I understand it.
Better pump life, better fuel pressure response, not as much crud built up in the fuel rails.

As for the coolant sensor thing, since I am the gunie pig(sp), I will tap a hole for the sensor and plug it. Use the stand pipe for now, and see how much different it is with coolant running or not. Then if they find it different enough to require tapping the intake, mine is already switched out for it.
I may run it like that anyway since it looks cleaner regardless of what they find.

Also it looks like I would have to tap it for the old(65 cts) sensor anyway.

They run it because it is cheaper.
Seriously in return line material alone they save money.
These are the people that deleted the cig lighter to save 50 cents a car.
From the hose clamps, the line, hose, and so forth, they must save close to 20 cents per car leaving that out.

I understand that there's an emissions aspect to it as well, but I can't recall what it was. The systems are essentially sealed any more, so I'm not sure how it would be a benefit. Between the speed of assembly and the $0.20 saved per car, you're really talking about serious bucks after a few million cars...

Clair