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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Kirby]
#870617
12/07/10 01:09 PM
12/07/10 01:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
Um- I'm thinking it would have been great to have 4 wheel disks in the Barracuda. Since when is having more stopping power a bad thing? 
Exactly.. Everyone thinks more power is better, why not the biggest possible brakes... 
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: hooziewhatsit]
#870618
12/07/10 02:09 PM
12/07/10 02:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
Quote:
Well the comment made was "the best way to improve an old cars braking"....and ABS does not improve braking.
If you're saying that braking with non-locked wheels is better than locked wheels, then yes of course it is, I doubt anyone is arguing that. But it doesn't take ABS to avoid locked wheels - proper set up and threshold braking.
 ABS makes stopping faster in panic situations for people who haven't practiced panic braking and keeping the brakes right at that threshold. Every winter on an empty stretch of slick road I'll practice how fast I can punch the brakes and stay on the edge of locking them up.
The current set up on my truck ('72 W200, discs all the way around), I can't lock up the fronts. But that may be more due to the 32s and dry pavement  This spring I'll get a pressure gauge and do some more testing.
I don't doubt that you guys can stop your vehicles better than an average dummy in your vehicle standing on the pedal with the wheels locked.
The question is - can you stop your vehicle faster than it could if it had ABS?  I've not met a human being yet that could modulate braking individually to 4 wheels with one brake pedal. Although I've not met everybody yet.
Overall, I'm always amazed at the $$ some guys will spend on their car but refuse to at least upgrade to OEM discs. 
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Fury Fan]
#870619
12/07/10 07:50 PM
12/07/10 07:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
Gavin
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Well the comment made was "the best way to improve an old cars braking"....and ABS does not improve braking.
If you're saying that braking with non-locked wheels is better than locked wheels, then yes of course it is, I doubt anyone is arguing that. But it doesn't take ABS to avoid locked wheels - proper set up and threshold braking.
ABS makes stopping faster in panic situations for people who haven't practiced panic braking and keeping the brakes right at that threshold. Every winter on an empty stretch of slick road I'll practice how fast I can punch the brakes and stay on the edge of locking them up.
The current set up on my truck ('72 W200, discs all the way around), I can't lock up the fronts. But that may be more due to the 32s and dry pavement This spring I'll get a pressure gauge and do some more testing.
I don't doubt that you guys can stop your vehicles better than an average dummy in your vehicle standing on the pedal with the wheels locked.
The question is - can you stop your vehicle faster than it could if it had ABS? I've not met a human being yet that could modulate braking individually to 4 wheels with one brake pedal. Although I've not met everybody yet.
Overall, I'm always amazed at the $$ some guys will spend on their car but refuse to at least upgrade to OEM discs.
I'd venture to say it would be unusual in the extreme for four wheels to lock at the same time - i.e. ABS will not usually need to modulate 4 brakes at the same time. If it does, the driver probably buried the pedal in a limited traction situation (e.g. ice) and maybe shouldn't be out in those conditions!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against ABS per se, but the suggestion was made that ABS would improve braking, which is not the case. Is it useful in some circumstances - yes. Would I pay a lot of money to retrofit it to my car, no way, I could achieve much more worthwhile improvements (braking or elsewhere) for the $$. Plus I don't generally take out my classic Mopar when it is sheet ice everywhere (actually I don't take it out at all while it is still in bits   ).
Under normal conditions with a well set up system - yeah I'd take on an ABS system and not expect to lose out.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Keith Black®]
#870621
12/08/10 12:48 PM
12/08/10 12:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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4 wheel drums on my Charger. Thats what is staying on it. Been to the track more times than I can count, and street driven almost every day. Never had a problem. To me, it stops well
1969 Nova
454/M21/3.31
Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD
5.0/4R70W/3.55
(Daily driver)
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DPelletier]
#870622
12/08/10 01:39 PM
12/08/10 01:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Quote:
Don't worry Feet's; firstly, I'm not going to be jacknifed in the middle of the road, and secondly, your little car isn't going to squash me like a grape!
for the record, I have nothing against you building your car as you like with 16" brakes if that's what you choose. The point I'm making is that you don't need that to be safe driving amongst traffic.
I guess you've never seen a travel trailer on it's side after the driver ran over the moron that cut in front of him. The really nasty part is when another car slams into the roof of the overturned pickup. That makes for a nasty mess involving the highway shut down for hours and a visit by the coroner. Needless to say, they weren't home for the holidays.
Properly set up drum brakes will feel great until you get into a car with properly set up dic brakes. Either arrangement will work for the vast majority of the muscle car crowd. For those of us with a more spirited driving style only the discs will do. That doesn't mean we're a nusiance on the highway. I do enjoy playing a bit when there's nobody around.
My daily commute has put me in situations where GOOD brakes saved my bacon. When the guy entered the freeway and hit the left lane between 15 and 20 mph while I was moving along at 65 mph things got... puckery. I was able to slow the hot rod down but couldn't see the guy's tail lights over my hood. That was close. It's also just one of the many idiots I have to deal with on the roads.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: 69L78Nova]
#870623
12/08/10 01:56 PM
12/08/10 01:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
RokketRide
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
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Quote:
4 wheel drums on my Charger. Thats what is staying on it. Been to the track more times than I can count, and street driven almost every day. Never had a problem. To me, it stops well
Wrong track for this discussion.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: RokketRide]
#870625
12/08/10 07:42 PM
12/08/10 07:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
DennisH
Vacation
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Vacation
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
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Quote:
Quote:
4 wheel drums on my Charger. Thats what is staying on it. Been to the track more times than I can count, and street driven almost every day. Never had a problem. To me, it stops well
Wrong track for this discussion.
Wrong track? Cars with air bags and traction logic are safer too. Better just park the old cars. After driving my modern Mopars w/modern brakes, I transition to the 69 w/11" hemi drums.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DennisH ]
#870627
12/08/10 08:30 PM
12/08/10 08:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
RokketRide
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,024
In the twisties
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
4 wheel drums on my Charger. Thats what is staying on it. Been to the track more times than I can count, and street driven almost every day. Never had a problem. To me, it stops well
Wrong track for this discussion.
Wrong track? Cars with air bags and traction logic are safer too. Better just park the old cars. After driving my modern Mopars w/modern brakes, I transition to the 69 w/11" hemi drums.
Yes wrong track. I dont see the need for your comment of overstatement when you misunderstand the context. Go ahead and drive a 4-drum car at the strip all you like, you only have to stop once.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Mike H]
#870628
12/08/10 08:48 PM
12/08/10 08:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
As the OP, can I cancel this thread? I don't know how though. I have learned all I need to know, and it's definitely going south.
Nope, you can PM a moderator though and ask.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: feets]
#870629
12/09/10 10:19 AM
12/09/10 10:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
Properly set up drum brakes will feel great until you get into a car with properly set up disc brakes. Either arrangement will work for the vast majority of the muscle car crowd.
...
My daily commute has put me in situations where GOOD brakes saved my bacon.
These 3 sentences by Feets sum it all up IMHO.
And as someone else mentioned, I also have had some drumbrake cars that stopped well (and some that didn't). But I have never had a discbrake car stop bad.
I have one drumbrake car left, and I drive it only on low-speed errands near the house - so I can drive it like a baby carriage.
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: feets]
#870630
12/09/10 11:57 AM
12/09/10 11:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Properly set up drum brakes will feel great until you get into a car with properly set up dic brakes. Either arrangement will work for the vast majority of the muscle car crowd. For those of us with a more spirited driving style only the discs will do.
...The majority of the resto/musclecar crowd is content to armchairing it at shows, or parade driving, so they're content with drum brakes, and can't comprehend the need for discs, or even 4 wheel discs, or OD transmissions for that matter as well,.....for those of us who enjoy putting the speedometer in the triple digits on the road or track, 4 wheel discs, and large capacity rotors/calipers are mandatory
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#870631
12/09/10 12:11 PM
12/09/10 12:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
Dean_Kuzluzski
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,936
Holly/MI
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Nobody mentioned yet.......... the REAL problem with retrofitting ABS onto a non-original application is the software development required for the "controller" to read and respond to the vehicles weight and suspension. Not to mention most systems incorporate a "fast shock" system too with sensors know as "pitch" and "yaw" sensors. I agree, the factory drums are for the more "relaxed" crowd. Once my old 69 Rr started running low 13's, playing around out on the boulevards got a bit too hair raising to not upgrade. And keeping up with the morning traffic on the interstate was living on borrowed time. Not worth the risk of wadding my old ride after all the work.  Going overkill is another macho deal. Cool for some, not necessary for me. So to speak, I buy enough truck to haul the load, the factory Mopar big brakes and an adjustable prop valve is very adaquate for my lightened B-body (3440 lbs). But I only do my go fast driving in a straight line. 
R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Mike H]
#870632
12/09/10 12:34 PM
12/09/10 12:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
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Well, I guess it all depends on WHAT you are doing with the car. With that said for the person just out cruising, driving defensively and obeying the traffic laws "properly" maintained drum brakes should be fine. There are several factors involved: 1- being quality shoes and properly surfaced drums 2- being how well the hydraulic system is maintained, brake fluid loves moisture in the short term up to 2% of your fluid can be water in the long term if not changed at least annually can be up to 8%, now that's a lot of water to have in your system and 3- tire width. A narrow tire can allow lockup whereas a wider tire that grips the road better will tend to turn more in a harder braking situation thus alleviating some lockup. So again if you are just a normal Sunday driver you should be fine with a drum system that is well maintained. IF you are in situations where repeated braking is required then disc/disc or disc/drum is THE way to go. 80% of your braking power is in the front. Through research and development disc has been proven overwhelmingly better than drum simply because they can and will dissipate heat better. Heat is your enemy. My car has OEM disc/drum and for a normal driver I find it adequate. IF I were to road race or I lived in an area where I had to do repeated stops in traffic I would at the very least upgrade the front disc to something more modern as there capabilities of removing heat are much better. Just my
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Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#870635
12/09/10 01:58 PM
12/09/10 01:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
...The majority of the resto/musclecar crowd is content to armchairing it at shows, or parade driving, so they're content with drum brakes, and can't comprehend the need for discs, or even 4 wheel discs, or OD transmissions for that matter as well,.....for those of us who enjoy putting the speedometer in the triple digits on the road or track, 4 wheel discs, and large capacity rotors/calipers are mandatory
 
Proporationing valve mounted under the dash which helps this car with factory Disc/ drum brakes perform great. I can lock all four at the same time.
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