Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Baro reading inside scoop? #811678
09/22/10 11:00 AM
09/22/10 11:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
T
theclutcher Offline OP
top fuel
theclutcher  Offline OP
top fuel
T

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
Wondering if anyone knows how to calc air pressure inside scoop at different speeds.
Formulas I have are unclear.
Any help appreciated.
Thanks all.

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: theclutcher] #811679
09/22/10 04:41 PM
09/22/10 04:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
M
maximum entropy Offline
master
maximum entropy  Offline
master
M

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
seems like it would be quite complicated- lots of variables to compromise the accuracy of the final calculation. wind speed, air density, vehicle speed, scoop opening area, boundary layer interference, leakage, engine intake volume versus vehicle speed/ engine rpm, etc. i'd stick some kind of barometer in the scoop. that would be interesting!


for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: theclutcher] #811680
09/22/10 05:03 PM
09/22/10 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
All I would do is put a pedo(sp) tube in and attach
it to a inch of water gauge to measure the pressure

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #811681
09/22/10 05:08 PM
09/22/10 05:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,129
Cleveland
sunroofgtx Offline
I Live Here
sunroofgtx  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,129
Cleveland
Why in the world would you want to know that? I would think even if it weren't moving, if the carb is sealed to the scoop, it would still be equal the outside air.. As the cars speed increased, the pressure would increase. I'd imagine if the speed got so great, it would start building boost, as forced air is shot into the carb.

Barometric pressure is the force that is exerted on objects by the weight of the atmosphere above them. A screw weighs the same under the scoop as it does out of the scoop, so the air would weigh the same, just the force of accelleration would increase it's density.


Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #811682
09/22/10 05:12 PM
09/22/10 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
M
maximum entropy Offline
master
maximum entropy  Offline
master
M

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
Quote:

All I would do is put a pedo(sp) tube in and attach
it to a inch of water gauge to measure the pressure



it seems like that would be something the pro stockers would do? i think it's spelled "pitot"?


for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: sunroofgtx] #811683
09/22/10 05:12 PM
09/22/10 05:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 945
La Vernia, Texas
Pat7272 Offline
super stock
Pat7272  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 945
La Vernia, Texas
Quote:

wouldn't it be the same as the air surrounding the car?




I think, if its a forward facing scoop, that at speed pressure inside the scoop should be just a little higher than ambient.

If its a cowl type scoop, pressure inside could possibly be a little lower? I dont think the effect would be as great in this situation.


Id be interested to see pressure and temperate readings inside and outside forward facing and cowl type hood scoops. At speed.


Pat

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: maximum entropy] #811684
09/22/10 05:18 PM
09/22/10 05:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Quote:

All I would do is put a pedo(sp) tube in and attach
it to a inch of water gauge to measure the pressure



it seems like that would be something the pro stockers would do? i think it's spelled "pitot"?




I believe you are correct on the spelling and I would
think the pro stocks do it in the wind tunnel

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #811685
09/22/10 05:44 PM
09/22/10 05:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
B
blownzoom440 Offline
blownzoom440  Offline
B

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,647
ELYRIA,OH
about 15 yrs ago in national dragster the tech section covered prostock and the pressure/hp gain from it.about 1.5% gain in hp if i recall.at the track i have seen 1 person with a large dial psi guage reading from 1 to 6 and i believe he was getting 2psi but it couls have been more.

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: blownzoom440] #811686
09/22/10 06:59 PM
09/22/10 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
HemiGreg Offline
master
HemiGreg  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
I just wrote a hugmungus tech reply and lost it by hitting somthing wrong

put a -10/0/+10" water magnahelic in ,do run record data,drink talk bench race,
do mods repeat as necessary till you run out then

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: HemiGreg] #811687
09/22/10 08:38 PM
09/22/10 08:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,129
Cleveland
sunroofgtx Offline
I Live Here
sunroofgtx  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 12,129
Cleveland
Scott, this is the best that I could find. I guess when you are at that level of racing, this stuff makes a difference..
Very good read. I read it twice.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4078/is_200306/ai_n9240601/


Join the quickest team in motorsports. Team FireCore. CustomWiresets.com
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: HemiGreg] #811688
09/22/10 11:20 PM
09/22/10 11:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
HemiGreg Offline
master
HemiGreg  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
The formula for theoretical maximum ram pressure ('velocity head') is:
p = pv²/288g, where
p is the velocity head in psi
Þ is air density in lb./cu. ft.
v is velocity in ft/sec. (88 ft./sec. = 60 mph)
g is acceleration due to gravity, 32.2 ft./sec/sec. on our home planet

So for example, at 150 mph (220 ft./sec.):
p = (0.076 x 220²)/(288 x 32.2) = 0.4 psi (~11 " H2O), or about a 2.7% potential power increase.

When measuring scoop pressure a big problem is that we are looking for a pressure difference between the inside of the scoop and the atmosphere, but in a moving car, where can you measure undisturbed atmosphere? Opening/closing windows affects a gauge with it's reference pressure pick up in the cockpit, as does flow through any openings in the firewall, rear of the body, etc. The answer is a static pressure tube (one half of the pitot/static probe used for air speed indicators on aircraft)

The additional air being sent into the carbs in a typical scoop like yours at 150mph is .40 psi at 180 its .53psi
and at 210 about .65 psi.
which means that 14.7psi + .6 psi +15.3psI or 15.35/14.7=1.044psi or 14% more Air introduced to the carb tops at speed vs non ram air effects.
this is all assumind sea level and all other things being constant.
i can also work it out in ref to inches of HG like the DA readings give you in feet.
thats why you run better at a lover elevation where the air is heavier thus denser, more air 20/80 gets to mix more fuel into the same cylinders.

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: HemiGreg] #811689
09/23/10 12:27 AM
09/23/10 12:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4 Offline
master
rowin4  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi


it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: HemiGreg] #811690
09/23/10 12:42 AM
09/23/10 12:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,254
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,254
Bend,OR USA
I didn't see any mention of Bernulis (SP?) principle on fluid dynamics and the venturi effect of the hood scoop opening if it is acting as a venturi In a venturi the pressure decreases as the air speed increases


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: Cab_Burge] #811691
09/23/10 10:56 AM
09/23/10 10:56 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
T
theclutcher Offline OP
top fuel
theclutcher  Offline OP
top fuel
T

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
Thanks all for the replies, excellent info.
Just thinking about two issues been rearing head recently.
1) scoop potential
2) pressure increase in entire engine bay, fender to fender.

Have resolved these issues prior, contemplating new ways to solve them.

Need to find supplier of pitot tubes, static pressure tubes gauges and related equipment.
Any recomendations Greg?

As the speed of vehicle is increasing, realizing were loosing significant amount to parasitic drag and other entities.
Thinking additional improvements in air management will reap sizable gains.

See the cover of ND, Jim Defranks car?
Hmmm, need some wind tunnel time or smooze with some Bonneville guys.

Last edited by theclutcher; 09/23/10 11:12 AM.
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: Cab_Burge] #811692
09/23/10 12:21 PM
09/23/10 12:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
HemiGreg Offline
master
HemiGreg  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,160
L.I. N.Y. Hemi Street
Quote:

I didn't see any mention of Bernulis (SP?) principle on fluid dynamics and the venturi effect of the hood scoop opening if it is acting as a venturi In a venturi the pressure decreases as the air speed increases




thats what happens when the air rushes over unsealed carb tops and lowers effective atmos.psi.
instead. hpefullu our friend bernuli is only inside the carb

one of best supplies: Dwyer do google and
search your spec then buy the stuff on e-bag

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: HemiGreg] #811693
09/23/10 12:54 PM
09/23/10 12:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
T
theclutcher Offline OP
top fuel
theclutcher  Offline OP
top fuel
T

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
Thanks Greg.

Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: Cab_Burge] #811694
09/24/10 06:44 PM
09/24/10 06:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,505
DFW
M
mr_340 Offline
master
mr_340  Offline
master
M

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,505
DFW
Quote:

I didn't see any mention of Bernulis (SP?) principle on fluid dynamics and the venturi effect of the hood scoop opening if it is acting as a venturi In a venturi the pressure decreases as the air speed increases




Actually what HemiGreg used in his formula is Bernoulli's equation with some conversion numbers stuck in there. I was wondering about the 288 number, maybe that is 2*88? From what I remember from my fluid mechanics class in college (about 26 years ago), there were certain restrictions on it's use. One was the velocity vs. pressure was along a streamline, friction losses are assumed to be zero, etc. It's still a good approximation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle


Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Baro reading inside scoop? [Re: mr_340] #811695
09/24/10 09:44 PM
09/24/10 09:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
T
theclutcher Offline OP
top fuel
theclutcher  Offline OP
top fuel
T

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
I am impressed with the amount of info available thru the links on that page.
All those Nasa links amongst the others... Geesh one could get a degree online.
You guys digest all of that info in a semester?







Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1