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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: B G Racing]
#788410
09/01/10 04:54 PM
09/01/10 04:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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News flash.....of course they cater to the pros, because that is the only thing that puts butts in the seats and it has always been that way. You cater to the pros, to draw fans, to make money, so that the sportsman racers, even have a place to race. To those that relish the "old days"...I was there in those days and same as today, the stands were a ghost town when the non pros were running. Nothing was any different then. I remember having to be in the lanes at 8am on a Thurs for class elims, same as now. The sport, has moved with the technology, same as the cars have.
Sure, you had some less than the most well known guys win back then, but most of the wins came from guys like Prudhomme, McCulloch, Glidden, Sheppard and others. Money and backing ruled then and it still does, just on a much larger scale.......Correct me if I am wrong, but did Bob Bode not just win a national event. Thats a very low buck team, as far as teams go today.
As far as some nostalgia race having 34 cars, what does that mean....thats like comparing apples to shoes, means nothing. There have been some short fields this year, but bracket turnouts are down as well, so what does that mean. It means the economy sucks, for the locas as well as the multi-million dollar teams, thats all.
Yeah, lets make it like the old days and let enginuity, imagination and MONEY sort it out. Dixon and others like him will totally dominate, even more than they do now. You can't beat money, never have, never will.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, as far as I'm concerned.
I am older than most think and like I said, was there during what some consider the "glory years".....can't say I miss it one bit, as compared to what we have now.
You want nostalgia, go to a nostalgia race.
Monte
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: BobR]
#788411
09/01/10 05:46 PM
09/01/10 05:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
Sixpak
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,840
The Swamp
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Quote:
"And while it's sad that Scott Kalitta died, one racer's death should not have led to the shortening of the race track to 1000'. Instead, the engine combinations should have been changed to both reduce the cost and reduce the horsepower to slow the cars down, thereby attracting more potential cars in the field."
Apparently not that sad. Hey, it's only one death. What's that in comparison to your happiness? The insurace company wanted immediate action or they were going to drop coverage. There would have been NO RACING. It isn't quite as easy to detune fuel cars as you seem to think. What is your expertise in this arena BTW? You do know that there is a consortium of fuel racers and product suppliers that are working on this as we speak? Do you even race? What? My guess is that you are just another monday morning quarterback.
You speak as if you work for Glendora...yes? So I guess by your estimation, there is no problem? First step in fixing a problem is recognizing there is one to begin with; otherwise you're in denial...
I've seen some rule changes get mandated within 1 - 2 races. And that consortium you speak of are only interesting in protecting their bottom line.
Gee, someone would have to pull out some old tuneups from 20 years ago - GREAT. Bring some parity back into the ranks, while we watch these guys get a handle on a new set up. Sure we'd see the teams struggle for a race or two but it would be no different than when Goodyear yanks a certain tire and mandates another one, or a certain type of blower is outlawed.
I've done my share of bracket racing over the years, and attended my 1st National event in 1979. So no, I am not some morning quarterback. I offer up some possible solutions to attract more teams, and make the cars safer while restoring the track to the full 1320. How about picking apart my solutions with some real solid reasons, not some answer that just seeks to maintain and justify the status quo with glib retorts.
If that's Monday morning quarterbacking, and what we have now is preferable to the 'old days' then I guess the future will bring 1/8 mile Nitro cars with Force and Schumacher fielding 8 car teams....and Nitro match racing will STILL be just as dead...
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#788412
09/01/10 05:57 PM
09/01/10 05:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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Can't agree, Monte.
When I first went to Indy in 1967, the entry list was 1300 some odd and the paid attendance was over 100,000. NHRA may have picked up more spectator only types because of the catering to the pros, but for every spectator they've picked up they've lost a stock/superstock/gasser/comp, and with them the four or five people that came with them to the big races. So, the best you can say in that regard that it has been a wash. Maybe yearly attendance is up, but, don't forget, they have twenty some odd races today, where they had four or six back then.
How can you say things are healthy when if one of the three or four guys who own everything folds up his tent tomorrow there goes half the field? When all these spectators that you say they draw show up at races disguised as a aluminum bleachers?
They've been correct in trying to grow the sport, but in doing so I believe they've lost more than they've gained.
As far as going to a Nostalgia race...you said it yourself go to one. But, if you care to check it out, you will find that a lot of NHRA's ex customers do just that.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Steve1118]
#788413
09/01/10 08:55 PM
09/01/10 08:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 88
John
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 88
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: B G Racing]
#788414
09/01/10 09:00 PM
09/01/10 09:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Although we enjoy racing both NHRA and IHRA we have to agree with Steve that the NHRA events themselves have lost touch with the everyday racers and cater to the pro classes.Like Steve we have been envolve for many years and watched the excitment of all the class racing and bracket racing deminish with all the emphasis on the T/F and Pro catagories. 
The IHRA doesn't have any more pros do they? Sorry but the average fan does not pay to see the sportsmen run. There is a move to get into the popular heads up racing and that shows that the NHRA is listening to someone.
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#788415
09/01/10 09:07 PM
09/01/10 09:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
News flash.....of course they cater to the pros, because that is the only thing that puts butts in the seats and it has always been that way. You cater to the pros, to draw fans, to make money, so that the sportsman racers, even have a place to race. To those that relish the "old days"...I was there in those days and same as today, the stands were a ghost town when the non pros were running. Nothing was any different then. I remember having to be in the lanes at 8am on a Thurs for class elims, same as now. The sport, has moved with the technology, same as the cars have.
Sure, you had some less than the most well known guys win back then, but most of the wins came from guys like Prudhomme, McCulloch, Glidden, Sheppard and others. Money and backing ruled then and it still does, just on a much larger scale.......Correct me if I am wrong, but did Bob Bode not just win a national event. Thats a very low buck team, as far as teams go today.
As far as some nostalgia race having 34 cars, what does that mean....thats like comparing apples to shoes, means nothing. There have been some short fields this year, but bracket turnouts are down as well, so what does that mean. It means the economy sucks, for the locas as well as the multi-million dollar teams, thats all.
Yeah, lets make it like the old days and let enginuity, imagination and MONEY sort it out. Dixon and others like him will totally dominate, even more than they do now. You can't beat money, never have, never will.
The more things change, the more they stay the same, as far as I'm concerned.
I am older than most think and like I said, was there during what some consider the "glory years".....can't say I miss it one bit, as compared to what we have now.
You want nostalgia, go to a nostalgia race.
Monte
I think that you and I are about the same age and have seen the same things. You know what I race and it costs plenty but I don't mind taking a back seat to the guys who draw the fans. I like racing at top notch facilities. Where was all these nostalgia cars? Oh ya, Famosa. Great track! We race there several times per year and it's always a tuning nightmare as well as an insect nightmare. I'll take Vegas, Firebird and Rt 66 thank you. Without professional racing these tracks would not exist.
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Steve1118]
#788416
09/01/10 09:23 PM
09/01/10 09:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
BeEtLeJuIcE !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,431
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Slow 'em down. You'll get more cars. Did you happen to notice that there were 34 Top Fuelers at Bakersfield March Meet this year? That should
tell them something.
It is not that EZ to slow-em-down ? ... Huh ? ... nitro %, fuel pumps, blower size and overdrive ..... LOTS of ways ....
Does anyone remember INDY ....way back when .....
..... and the SIXTY FOUR car fields of TF cars !  
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: BeEtLeJuIcE !]
#788417
09/01/10 10:51 PM
09/01/10 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,179
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,179
Park Forest, IL
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Sportsman cars at a national event are nothing more than space filler for the nitro cars. That also includes everything up to P/S. Look at the car counts in the IHRA since they went to the Nitro Jam formats. It's not unusual to see less than 20 cars in Super Stock and less than 30 in Stock. 
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: BeEtLeJuIcE !]
#788418
09/01/10 10:52 PM
09/01/10 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
Steve1118
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,763
Walton's Mountain, Pa
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This is an interesting discussion.
I will cede to you that the "supertracks" would not exist today without the DSR's and the JFR's "evolvement". I will also cede another point that has not been mentioned...that is that there has been some political clout that may have helped the sport out in some legal issues.
That being said, there has been a trade off. I still believe that for every fan they've gained they've lost a stock/ss/comp guys and the support they brought with them. I really think that the numbers of 1967 vs. the numbers today confirm that. I also think there has been such a rift between the rank and file racer and the pros/NHRA that is very alarming. I can name ten long time racers that I run with that used to attend NHRA national events and simply are not interested anymore. They can't relate to it. Oh, they still love the sport, are still active, but don't give a hoot about NHRA?Powerade "Championship" drag racing. Has the trade off been worth it? I guess everyone will have to decide that for themselves. I don't, and I think that without that strong grassroots "foundation" the sport will suffer.
I honestly don't understand the resistance to slowing the cars down, rather than push 1000 foot racing on everyone. Control the fuel, air, and ignition and you've done it. You could probably do that with existing equipment. NASCAR did it...remember in 1971 when the winged cars were running faster than they do today? They didn't shorten the tracks, they put some controls on the equipment. I don't see why NHRA can't do the same thing. They got used to it in NASCAR, they'll get used to it in NHRA. Everything is relative, anyway....I honestly don't think the average spectator can tell the difference between a 290 mph pass and a 330, provided everyone is running the same.
"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!" East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Steve1118]
#788419
09/01/10 11:21 PM
09/01/10 11:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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I have to agree with both Monte and Steve. The Sportsman classes are suffering because of the Pro syndrome at NHRA, but without the Pro fans, the sport will cease to exsist. And like Steve said, the average fan couldn't tell the difference between a 290MPH run and 330MPH. Personally, I think they just want to hear and feel the sound of nitro. It's time to slow the cars down because the tracks can't afford to lengnthen the surface on the paultry money NHRA allows them to make for a divisonal or national event. And the track operators are every bit as pi$$ed at NHRA too.
Since our track went to IHRA, the crown appeal has doubled and tripled, and while I don't care for the format, I love to see the stands full. It means we will continue to have a place to race. And I have attended both venues now and must confess while I didn't care for the new format at first, I love the way they tech and run our part of the race. Although, I wouldn't ever care to spectate at one of these things. IHRA has also put their money where their a mouth is in improvments to the track.
IMHO NHRA has forgotten an important point, the weekend bracket guys pay for the show all year long, and they shouldn't treat us like second class citizens. The hiarchy at NHRA sucks. Rant over!
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Steve1118]
#788420
09/01/10 11:41 PM
09/01/10 11:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 123
Iowa
66Hemiwagon
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 123
Iowa
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Kyle Reasbeck]
#788423
09/02/10 04:02 AM
09/02/10 04:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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People talk about the NHRA "circus" and how great you are treated at IHRA, well it would seem to me that IHRA IS THE CIRCUS now. Run by the same people and has the same format.
Steve, I understand your comment about the sportsman racers....but...you overlook the very point you made. Yeah, there may have been a ton on cars at INDY in 67, but there were 4 races a year. Of course you went to INDY, everybody went to INDY. Now, with 20+ big races and all the divisional races spread all over the country, sportsman racers have way more opportunity to run at more races, closer to home and for more money. I fail to see where this is a bad thing for the sportsman guys. Total numbers of racers now, at both national and divisional races, over the course of a year, will blow the 60s numbers away. So again, I just don't get where the sportsman guys are suffering. Must be doing something right, if they had to incorporate the grade point system, to keep the number of sportsman racers in check at some events.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not an NHRA lover. They do plenty I don't agree with, but I am not going to bash them. It is pretty easy for all of us to sit behind a keyboard and say what they should do, what we want them to do, or what we would do if we were in charge, but bottom line is, we are not in charge and it is never as easy as everyone thinks it is.
As far as slowing fuel cars down...sure, one pump and one mag will slow em down, but if you think it will be any cheaper, or allow any lower budget teams to be more competitive, you are sadly mistaken. Less fuel and less spark, just means they will use more compression, more boost and more lead. Motors will still be on the edge and burned up on a regular basis, probably more so. Sure, you could limit boost and compression, but then you have a spec motor, that everybody is screaming they don't want. You can't have it both ways. I have a good friend, who is the crew chief on a current, top 3 fuel car. We have had this discussion many times. If it was as easy as everyone thinks, it would have already been done.
Monte
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Kyle Reasbeck]
#788426
09/02/10 10:29 AM
09/02/10 10:29 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
as far as the track argument, there must be a disconnect between the east and west coast, because here in the NE the IHRA tracks are as good if not superior to the NHRA tracks:
NHRA:
Numidia (good)
Mason Dixon (fun but not a high end facility)
Maple Grove (great)
IHRA:
Pittsburgh (great)
MIR (great)
Norwalk (great, i know there NHRA now, but they were the top facility and IHRA long before they went to NHRA)
Beaver Springs (not high end, but great hook and great place to race)
So i'm not buying the "NHRA tracks are great because they're NHRA and the others suck" because here its quite the opposite.
How much HP are you running? What kinds of ET's?
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#788427
09/02/10 10:34 AM
09/02/10 10:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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"As far as slowing fuel cars down...sure, one pump and one mag will slow em down, but if you think it will be any cheaper, or allow any lower budget teams to be more competitive, you are sadly mistaken. Less fuel and less spark, just means they will use more compression, more boost and more lead. Motors will still be on the edge and burned up on a regular basis, probably more so. Sure, you could limit boost and compression, but then you have a spec motor, that everybody is screaming they don't want. You can't have it both ways. I have a good friend, who is the crew chief on a current, top 3 fuel car. We have had this discussion many times. If it was as easy as everyone thinks, it would have already been done."
Another thing that many don't understand is that the fuel itself is a coolant for the nitro cars. Not all of the fuel these huge pumps move gets burned. Some goes through the engine where it picks up heat then gets bypassed back into the fuel cell. If the pump size it cut something else has to suffice for this part of the operation.
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Re: What the H___ is wrong with the NHRA???????????
[Re: camastomcat]
#788428
09/02/10 10:38 AM
09/02/10 10:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
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Quote:
Monte,
While you are right that the IHRA format is more of a circus, it draws fans and "puts peoples butts in the stands. And they pay more for less rounds and cost of entry in T/D and all of the sportsman classes with almost the same contigency program.
And your point about the NHRA doesn't hurt sportsman racers, how about all of the entry fees and certifications that seen to go up every time they feel the need to line their pockets? Have you ever been to main office in Glendora, CA? I have and and it is easy to see why this top heavy "non profit" organization is so inefficiant.
And I'm not even going to argue the cost issue with the T/F ranks. I know several teams as well, and most would like the 1000ft ruke to stand, essecially Connie K.
Bottom line is....NHRA has a major disconnect with the sportsman racers and the current attitude towards us sucks!
The 1000' rules has done much to reduce costs-maybe as much or even more than depowering the engines.
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