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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771305
08/13/10 02:05 PM
08/13/10 02:05 PM
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United Socialist States of Ame...
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tboomer Offline
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That there I find interesting...I got this from a well known racer..There are two Moroso pans that are advertised as 7 quarts...One is actually 6!! Why they sell it as a 7 quart pan is beyond me. Also why would Barton tell you to only run 6 quarts? When you changed oil did you put a 1/2 quart into the filter then top it off? Did the dipstick read at the full mark? What pickup did it have on it??


The end is near.....
Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: tboomer] #771306
08/13/10 07:11 PM
08/13/10 07:11 PM
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MD-USA
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Dodgeguy101 Offline
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I see you said you run engine restore in the motor. Is there any truth to what I heard that this stuff has fine metal particles in it to help with ring seal? Could that be what you are seeing in the filter, and is it possible long term it has eaten away at the bearings? I'm just asking, because I don't know what is in the additive.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: Dodgeguy101] #771307
08/13/10 07:30 PM
08/13/10 07:30 PM
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Posts: 2,431
USA
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SSAAHemiFan Offline
top fuel
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USA
heard of using restore in worn out motors .. but never new ones ?



FWIW - Here is the contents.

ENGINE RESTORER” IS NOT AN OIL ADDITIVE According to the company each can of Engine Restorer contains billions of CSL micro-particles in suspension in a neutral motor oil of high quality. Each CSL micro-particle contains Lead (40%) dispersed uniformly throughout a Copper (60%) matrix with Silver.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: SSAAHemiFan] #771308
08/13/10 08:20 PM
08/13/10 08:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,884
Grand Prairie,Texas
stumpy Offline
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Why in the world do you think you need additives in a new motor. No way would I add anything but zinc for breakin.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: HPMike] #771309
08/13/10 08:58 PM
08/13/10 08:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,216
Under My Car
Mopar_Country Offline
pro stock
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Under My Car
Quote:

if you are only seeing 20psi above idle, I wouldn't lean on it too hard. That pressure should shoot up to above 50 as soon as you get off idle (1200 and up). Sure looks like somethings up.






My engine is far from new and holds 20 at idle and between 50 and 60 at cruise. I can't imagine running 5 quarts in a 7 quart pan, sounds like you sucked the bottom end dry.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771310
08/13/10 09:20 PM
08/13/10 09:20 PM
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Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:


The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has.




Wondering about the valve lash after reading this, who set the valve lash? Have you checked since this problem popped up? Noisey rocker arms arn't normal, imho.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: Challenger 1] #771311
08/28/10 07:43 PM
08/28/10 07:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 75
Illinois
ChrisDavis Offline OP
member
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Illinois
Well… It is apart and at Pfeiffers Engine Specialties in Freeport, IL. There are two spun mains, the cam bearings are totally destroyed and 7 flat lobes on the cam. The bearing clearances appear too tight and the rings are too loose. Both the block and crank are salvageable. I will be switching to a solid roller cam if I can locate lifters that will survive on the street. Also the pistons are hitting the heads and will need some milling to clearance them. Steve Pfeiffer says he does NOT see signs that it ran out of oil.

I just changed oil on my Road Runner’s 451 and am seeing similar issues. The filter has silver metal in it as opposed to the gold I saw in the Hemi’s filter. The drain plug has fine filings stuck to it and the oil is turning black in just a very few miles. However I don’t detect the burnt smell in the oil that was evident in the Hemi and I still have good oil pressure. At least this is a roller cam engine so I don’t have to worry about the cam going flat. Here we go again!

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771312
08/28/10 07:48 PM
08/28/10 07:48 PM
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Posts: 10,178
Someplace you aren't
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SomeCarGuy Offline
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Someplace you aren't
Who built that one?


I want my fair share
Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771313
08/28/10 08:08 PM
08/28/10 08:08 PM
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Posts: 2,315
MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
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hemigod426 Offline
top fuel
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MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
Quote:

Well… It is apart and at Pfeiffers Engine Specialties in Freeport, IL. There are two spun mains, the cam bearings are totally destroyed and 7 flat lobes on the cam. The bearing clearances appear too tight and the rings are too loose. Both the block and crank are salvageable. I will be switching to a solid roller cam if I can locate lifters that will survive on the street. Also the pistons are hitting the heads and will need some milling to clearance them. Steve Pfeiffer says he does NOT see signs that it ran out of oil.

I just changed oil on my Road Runner’s 451 and am seeing similar issues. The filter has silver metal in it as opposed to the gold I saw in the Hemi’s filter. The drain plug has fine filings stuck to it and the oil is turning black in just a very few miles. However I don’t detect the burnt smell in the oil that was evident in the Hemi and I still have good oil pressure. At least this is a roller cam engine so I don’t have to worry about the cam going flat. Here we go again!


I KNEW IT SOUNDED LIKE cam/lifters were tearing up,from my post on page one, and caused all other problems, pistons are tapping heads now beacause there are no rod bearings left, that can throw piston/rods 50-80 thou farther up to hit head. after redone clay for clearance. dont just start milling pistons, is elmer fudd doing this one also....


MOPAR OR NO CAR
Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: tboomer] #771314
08/28/10 08:52 PM
08/28/10 08:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,324
Western Pa
joewhite440 Offline
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Quote:

That there I find interesting...I got this from a well known racer..There are two Moroso pans that are advertised as 7 quarts...One is actually 6!! Why they sell it as a 7 quart pan is beyond me. Also why would Barton tell you to only run 6 quarts? When you changed oil did you put a 1/2 quart into the filter then top it off? Did the dipstick read at the full mark? What pickup did it have on it??




I have used a lot of those pans on engines over the years. I never knew that! All the ones I put on took 7 Quarts in the pan and one for the filter. Always read the full mark on the Dipstick.
I guess you are never to old to learn !

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771315
08/29/10 09:46 AM
08/29/10 09:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1 Offline
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From the beginning I was thinking bad break-in but I kept my mouth shut.
I'm hearing more & more about BB's wiping out cams in the first 1,000 miles recently than I have heard in the previous 40!
SUMTHINS going on here and I don't know what it is....

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: Challenger 1] #771316
08/29/10 11:38 AM
08/29/10 11:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has.




Wondering about the valve lash after reading this, who set the valve lash? Have you checked since this problem popped up? Noisey rocker arms arn't normal, imho.




Thanks for the update, sorry about your engine.

When I read what you said about valve train noise it made it sound like the lash was not set right. It's easy to it get wrong, Sorry again.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771317
08/29/10 11:40 AM
08/29/10 11:40 AM
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Jefferson State
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srt Online content
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Jefferson State
get ahold of rocker arm specialtist in anderson ca they are the guys to correctly set up your heads/rocker assemblies.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: srt] #771318
08/29/10 12:03 PM
08/29/10 12:03 PM
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quick77rt Offline
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For reasons I dont know, I had a bronze/brass whatever its made of dist shaft bushing lock up on the pump drive and spin in the block, the filter got it all but it was a pain to determine where it was coming from.

Im no expert but the rpm drop would make me wonder if friction related and then bad oil.

If it were my hemi id be pulling it, too much at risk when it seems you found the problem early.

From your vid it seems like a pretty mild motor and not run too hard. Good luck with your fix.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771319
08/29/10 04:08 PM
08/29/10 04:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules Offline
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closer to Canadian beer!
Quote:

I will be switching to a solid roller cam if I can locate lifters that will survive on the street.




No problem there. Just have Lunati or your favorite cam company grind you a mild street roller profile (something in the .590-.600 range, 110 lobe separation, 240 @ 050 lift) and run a lighter spring (190 on the seat and 450 open)or a beehive spring. Any lifter/spring will last a long time, your less likely to smoke exhaust push rods, and it'll make plenty o power (mine made 650@6500rpm). Keep your oil pressure around 30psi at idle.

Set the end play up for around .003-.005" so the cam doesn't bump around alot as this beats the hell out of the oil pump drive. It also keeps the ignition timing rock steady.

If you want the specs I can dig them up.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened [Re: ChrisDavis] #771320
08/31/10 09:35 AM
08/31/10 09:35 AM
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Annapolis, MD, USA
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Vert Offline
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Chris, this is a real bummer. I have the SAME engine from Barton. No issues 'cept the damper bolts and the mechanical fuel pump mounting. Those rockers are loud, same as mine. Hard to hear any other mechanicals when she is running. I agree about milling the pistons. If they weren't hitting before, they won't hit when rebuilt. You won't be stretching those rods any.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe [Re: Vert] #771321
08/31/10 11:40 AM
08/31/10 11:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,487
God's Country Maryland
GODSCOUNTRY340 Offline
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God's Country Maryland
If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.


I love the smell of Deer guts in the morning, it smells like... VICTORY!
Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe [Re: GODSCOUNTRY340] #771322
08/31/10 03:12 PM
08/31/10 03:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,041
michigan woods
imfixinmopars426 Offline
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michigan woods
since cam failed,wonder if it was broken in w/ light springs? then inners added after? or just slammed together,and shipped? hmmmmm

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe [Re: GODSCOUNTRY340] #771323
08/31/10 04:50 PM
08/31/10 04:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Oakdale CT
Quote:

If that engine was turning 7,000 RPMs with only 5 quarts of oil in the pan, there's little doubt you exposed the oil pick-up and were sucking air.




That was my thought.

Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happe [Re: imfixinmopars426] #771324
08/31/10 04:54 PM
08/31/10 04:54 PM
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Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post Offline
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Baltimore/Denver
Quote:

since cam failed,wonder if it was broken in w/ light springs? then inners added after? or just slammed together,and shipped? hmmmmm




Nahhh, never happen

Last edited by 64Post; 08/31/10 04:55 PM.
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