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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771285
08/11/10 10:08 PM
08/11/10 10:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
It is not under the best of circumstances that I write this post. In 2007 I had Ray Barton build me a 528 for my ‘Cuda. To date it has 611 miles on it and no racing. I have changed the oil each year at about 200 mile increments. Recently it appears that I have a case of bearing failure.
About the engine:
It is the usual Ray Barton recipe of 528 cubes on a Mopar brand cast iron block, solid flat tappet cam (280*, 667”), Nascar lifters, Ray Barton rocker arms, aluminum heads, dual quad single plane, etc. It dyno’ed at 702 HP at near 7K RPM. I have it rev limited at 7K RPM as well.
Here are my issues:
Suddenly I lost oil pressure. It would always run about 60 Lbs. and now it is more like 20 Lbs. At about the same time it lost a couple hundred RPM off it’s idle. When I drained the oil it was black and looked like it had way more than 200 miles on it. Former oil changes where clean. There were some fine metal particles on the magnetic oil plug. When I cut the filter open I found a lot of gold colored metal in the pleats. This weekend I will be pulling the pan and bearing caps to see what might have failed.
Does anyone have any suggestions what I should look for besides the obvious bearing damage? Does anyone have any ideas what might have happened and why this failure took place? Does anyone else have experience with Ray Barton engines and their quirks?
Any anti freeze in the oil? This will chew up the bearing very quickly and will leave bronze like flakes in the filter and on the inside of the engine. I know you mentioned it was black.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771286
08/11/10 10:16 PM
08/11/10 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,986
Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Special needs idiot
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Special needs idiot
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,986
Benton, IL.
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Did you not notice any engine noise? Or is the car too loud to hear anything going on under the hood? If there is a good amount of metal in the filter, I would think that it would take a little while to get built up.
When you pull the pan, look the rod caps over real good with a bright light. You may be able to see one or a pair that is/are darker than the others, indicating excess heat. May save some time rather than pulling them all.
But I would be surprised if a bearing could shed that much metal and the crank be okay.
Good luck!
Master, again and still
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: DaveRS23]
#771290
08/11/10 11:44 PM
08/11/10 11:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 121
Detroit, MI
kz5rt2
member
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member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 121
Detroit, MI
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FWIW Not saying RB is bad in any way, but I had a similar issue with an B&B engine builder. He told me he'd "fix" it too, issued a crate pickup - I was out of the money I paid for the engine and the engine as well. Stupid me left some valuable early b body A/C brackets/pulleys on it too! Not to mention I was out of attorney/court costs too!  I feel your pain and hopefully he makes it right with you! Keep us posted.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: kz5rt2]
#771291
08/12/10 12:08 AM
08/12/10 12:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,193
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,193
Someplace you aren't
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I would pull the dis before I pulled the pan. Sounds like what others are saying, the drive gear would cause low timing/idle and low PSI.
Real easy to do compared to a pan.
I want my fair share
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771292
08/12/10 12:12 AM
08/12/10 12:12 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315
MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
hemigod426
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,315
MOPAR HEADQUARTERS IN ALDEN NY
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Quote:
Well, I saved the oil and have let it sit for a day now. Normally if there were any antifreeze in the oil I think you would see a film on the top and there isn’t any.
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has. With the exception of low oil pressure and 200 RPM less idle speed you wouldn’t know there was anything wrong.
I can’t believe the cam or lifters are at fault. There are no extra valve train noises and I know what to listen for. There also isn’t any gold colored metal I can think of in the valve train. Additionally these are the costly Nascar lifters.
I will find out this weekend when I can get it to a hoist and get the pan off. I expect to find at least one bad main bearing and crack shaft damage. I just hope one did not seize and spin, then I will be looking for a block too.
dude pull covers and intake dont run it any more unless you like rods threw the block, most hemi oiling problems are from cam up.cam bearing feed hole twisted,cam fuel pump lobe worn off, inspect rocker tips,ajusters,puchrods,lifters,cam all can tear up when oil shuts off, dont care who makes them and shoot metal everywhere in complete motor,scoring crank/rods,bores,pistons ect..drill prime it with dizzy out to see how and where oil is flowing, if that is all good and flows right, then pull pan, if you pull pan first you can do no testing 
MOPAR OR NO CAR
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771293
08/12/10 09:46 AM
08/12/10 09:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Well, I saved the oil and have let it sit for a day now. Normally if there were any antifreeze in the oil I think you would see a film on the top and there isn’t any.
The exhaust is relatively quiet. However the Ray Barton rocker arms and solid lifters are not. The lifter noise is all I hear under the hood and it sounds the same as it always has. With the exception of low oil pressure and 200 RPM less idle speed you wouldn’t know there was anything wrong.
I can’t believe the cam or lifters are at fault. There are no extra valve train noises and I know what to listen for. There also isn’t any gold colored metal I can think of in the valve train. Additionally these are the costly Nascar lifters.
I will find out this weekend when I can get it to a hoist and get the pan off. I expect to find at least one bad main bearing and crack shaft damage. I just hope one did not seize and spin, then I will be looking for a block too.
When you say low idle/low oil pressure are these two descriptions used together. At 800 rpm and a thinner vicosity oil, 20psi at idle doesn't seem that far off depending on the bearing clearance and bearing type (full groove). As soon as you get on the throttle, the pressure should shoot up right away. Whats the pressure at say 1500rpm? Yes Hemi valve train is a little noisier, but I wouldn't rule out a cam/lifter going away.
FWIW, I run straight SAE30 oil in mine and when it's fully warmed up the oil pressure sits at 30psi at 1000 rpm. At 1500rpm it's at 65psi.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771294
08/12/10 11:45 AM
08/12/10 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Are you using a synthetic oil? Many of the synthetics will not stick to engine parts after sitting for a long time. It results in dry engine starts.
With all the mechanical load a hemi has up top, I'd expect problems to arise with poor oiling.
I agree with priming the oil with the covers off to see what's going on.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: feets]
#771295
08/12/10 04:39 PM
08/12/10 04:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
Are you using a synthetic oil? Many of the synthetics will not stick to engine parts after sitting for a long time. It results in dry engine starts.
With all the mechanical load a hemi has up top, I'd expect problems to arise with poor oiling.
I agree with priming the oil with the covers off to see what's going on.
I think the Brad Penn stuff is semi synthetic and is suppose to cling.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: Challenger 1]
#771299
08/13/10 12:23 PM
08/13/10 12:23 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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Quote:
Why in the world would he say to run it low on oil? It's not SS motor or Comp motor??? 
I always run more oil than the pan is designed for. 8-9 qts in a 7 qt pan sure as heck isn't gonna hurt anything.
Running more oil than a pan was designed for will, at the very least, cost some power.
If he is running a street hemi pan with that stroke, without some oil control mods, you could have some windage losses costing some power. If everything is right, there is nothing wrong with running those pans at 6 qt. Plus, hemi's will generally retain more oil on an oil change due to the larger surface area. I don't see a problem there.
MB
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: HPMike]
#771301
08/13/10 01:16 PM
08/13/10 01:16 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Why in the world would he say to run it low on oil? It's not SS motor or Comp motor???
I always run more oil than the pan is designed for. 8-9 qts in a 7 qt pan sure as heck isn't gonna hurt anything.
Running more oil than a pan was designed for will, at the very least, cost some power.
If he is running a street hemi pan with that stroke, without some oil control mods, you could have some windage losses costing some power. If everything is right, there is nothing wrong with running those pans at 6 qt. Plus, hemi's will generally retain more oil on an oil change due to the larger surface area. I don't see a problem there.
MB
I hear you...  But like I said, it's a street motor.
And what was said, buzzing it to 7000 grand it needs plenty of oil.
My blown hemis are way different I know. But...
I started out with 10 Qts with a roots blower then with wipple screw blower(50psi boost)-12qts Then with a PSI blower(60psi) we were forced to go with 18 qts all in the same pan.It spins though to 9800RPM.
I'll bet you he scuffed some bearings from lack of oil.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771303
08/13/10 01:53 PM
08/13/10 01:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
I'm neurotic
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I'm neurotic
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
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Quote:
To answer the questions. The pan is a 7 quart Moroso. The pump is what ever high volume pump Ray Barton uses in his builds. They told me they always run 6 quarts of oil for windage loss reasons. I let it get a quart lower than that. I am told that RB’s engines burn some oil due to the type of rings he uses. I do get a small amount of smoke. As you can see in the one video shot from outside the car it doesn’t smoke much.
There is nothing like closing the barn door after the hoarse got out, but I am going to add an oil pressure switch connected to either a sounder or the horn so I am notified immediately if there is a loss of oil pressure. While going through the gears I am way too busy looking at the tach and keeping the car in a straight line to see the oil pressure gauge.
Challenger 1, holly crap 60 SPI boost!
Chris,
if you are only seeing 20psi above idle, I wouldn't lean on it too hard. That pressure should shoot up to above 50 as soon as you get off idle (1200 and up). Sure looks like somethings up.
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Re: Ray Barton 528 failure what to look for, what happened
[Re: ChrisDavis]
#771304
08/13/10 02:02 PM
08/13/10 02:02 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
HPMike
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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The smell of the oil will tell you a lot. Oil can be black-yet not smell burnt. Just look at a typical diesel engine. When an internal part becomes overheated, it will give the oil a characteristic burnt odor. If your oil smells like this, and by looking at the previous photos and the oil pressure readings, it's time to tear it down.  MB
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Loss of oil pressure, loss of power, metal in the filter and yet no extra engine noise. I'll be interested in hearing what you find. Keep us posted!
