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Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: mopar346] #76962
06/27/08 01:47 PM
06/27/08 01:47 PM
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USA
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ECS Offline
David Walden
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David Walden
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USA
Hi Kevin,
I am truly humbled and grateful for your input and expressions. Please remember that some attacks are done by those who think they are being coy and have camouflaged them very well. I decided to put the pictures side by side of the factory original paint and what Steve Been had applied. (I would have shown the original pattern but some things need to be left for the show.) I guess the factory was also applying too much paint because the coverage looks almost identical to what we sprayed. I just can't figure out how some people claim know so much yet they can't seem to convey that "knowledge" into their own projects or restoration work.

4515541-trunkcompare.jpg (321 downloads)
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76963
06/27/08 03:16 PM
06/27/08 03:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,741
KY
65pacecar Offline
master
65pacecar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,741
KY
Quote:

I have noticed that there is a reoccurring theme that is taking place with one particular person on this thread. It is not how “correct” the car is but how perfectly we have come to duplicating the original characteristics. I am confident that we have accomplished that objective with about 95-96% accuracy. My analogy of “signing your own name the exact same way twice” is a good example of just how hard it is to duplicate anything exactly. This is even more evident when you try to recreate someone else’s spray paint patterns while having to manipulate the exact amount of paint that is coming out of the gun. There are others who have posted pictures of their work and received instant praise for the appearance and what was accomplished. Rightfully so! With my car (and this person) pictures that we post are followed by a demand for pictorial proof so credibility can be established. Double standards certainly seem to be the norm for some but keep in mind that everything we have done to this Challenger has been thought thru completely. I can assure that certain “individual” that we did not simply overlook the correct spray pattern of the entire trunk area. The car is correct for what it represents. It is hard enough to do an OE level restoration on a vehicle. Compound that difficulty with having to match about 10,000 original characteristics as closely as possible! Even if it the car does not walk it’s own footprint with 100% exacting detail, it is still WELL within the range of being a factory appearing vehicle. Having to prove every little aspect to someone who is just hoping for some kind of mistake or hiccup was not the intent of this thread.
Please correct me if I am wrong Mr. Blues Cuda.....Scott.




Incredible job on this one. Regarding the exact details and spray patterns, it is unlikely two cars ever came from the factory exactly the same in regards to paint, undercoating, overspray, spray patterns etc. As a design Engineer in the Automotive world today I can tell you that details, inspections marks, patterns etc. change on a daily and monthly basis and from operator to operator. If we have a specific defect or quality issue we are tracking we may add an inspection mark to the product, but that mark may only last a month, if someone restores the car 30 years from now which will be correct? Of course both will be, but which will be accepted, probably the one discovered first. There is also a huge difference from first to second shift in terms of technique, quality at times, defect rates, inspection marks etc. most of this can be contributed to experienced operators are on first while less experienced and new hires are on second and third, also first has the full management, technical and Engineering staff in the plant while the off-shifts have a skeletal staff. With todays technology, vision system inspections and PLC controlled and Robotic process we still have variations, when our Mopars were built we had much more human influence on the process which opens the door for differences in detail.

The best way to determine correct features on a particular model is to study several original and survivor cars and find a common theme and not take one nice car and determine that every 71 Cuda (for example) was built exactly like this, regardless of who was on the line, what month or suppliers were involved. If we start down the road that every Cuda has this detail, every Challenger that and every 69 Road Runner must be like this, then we will turn into the Bloomington Corvette crowd and have cookie cutter restorations rather than exact restorations of the actual car being restored. On cars that are so far gone that the original details are lost, then it is time to study several originals, take note of the details, create a common theme and pattern by averaging the details of the study group and build your car accordingly with the research and photos to back it up.

The car in this picture is an excellent representation of the cars on the lot when new, keep up the great work.

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: 65pacecar] #76964
06/27/08 03:28 PM
06/27/08 03:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 633
Mass
M
Mike Mancini Offline
mopar
Mike Mancini  Offline
mopar
M

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 633
Mass
Quote:

Quote:

I have noticed that there is a reoccurring theme that is taking place with one particular person on this thread. It is not how “correct” the car is but how perfectly we have come to duplicating the original characteristics. I am confident that we have accomplished that objective with about 95-96% accuracy. My analogy of “signing your own name the exact same way twice” is a good example of just how hard it is to duplicate anything exactly. This is even more evident when you try to recreate someone else’s spray paint patterns while having to manipulate the exact amount of paint that is coming out of the gun. There are others who have posted pictures of their work and received instant praise for the appearance and what was accomplished. Rightfully so! With my car (and this person) pictures that we post are followed by a demand for pictorial proof so credibility can be established. Double standards certainly seem to be the norm for some but keep in mind that everything we have done to this Challenger has been thought thru completely. I can assure that certain “individual” that we did not simply overlook the correct spray pattern of the entire trunk area. The car is correct for what it represents. It is hard enough to do an OE level restoration on a vehicle. Compound that difficulty with having to match about 10,000 original characteristics as closely as possible! Even if it the car does not walk it’s own footprint with 100% exacting detail, it is still WELL within the range of being a factory appearing vehicle. Having to prove every little aspect to someone who is just hoping for some kind of mistake or hiccup was not the intent of this thread.
Please correct me if I am wrong Mr. Blues Cuda.....Scott.




Incredible job on this one. Regarding the exact details and spray patterns, it is unlikely two cars ever came from the factory exactly the same in regards to paint, undercoating, overspray, spray patterns etc. As a design Engineer in the Automotive world today I can tell you that details, inspections marks, patterns etc. change on a daily and monthly basis and from operator to operator. If we have a specific defect or quality issue we are tracking we may add an inspection mark to the product, but that mark may only last a month, if someone restores the car 30 years from now which will be correct? Of course both will be, but which will be accepted, probably the one discovered first. There is also a huge difference from first to second shift in terms of technique, quality at times, defect rates, inspection marks etc. most of this can be contributed to experienced operators are on first while less experienced and new hires are on second and third, also first has the full management, technical and Engineering staff in the plant while the off-shifts have a skeletal staff. With todays technology, vision system inspections and PLC controlled and Robotic process we still have variations, when our Mopars were built we had much more human influence on the process which opens the door for differences in detail.

The best way to determine correct features on a particular model is to study several original and survivor cars and find a common theme and not take one nice car and determine that every 71 Cuda (for example) was built exactly like this, regardless of who was on the line, what month or suppliers were involved. If we start down the road that every Cuda has this detail, every Challenger that and every 69 Road Runner must be like this, then we will turn into the Bloomington Corvette crowd and have cookie cutter restorations rather than exact restorations of the actual car being restored. On cars that are so far gone that the original details are lost, then it is time to study several originals, take note of the details, create a common theme and pattern by averaging the details of the study group and build your car accordingly with the research and photos to back it up.

The car in this picture is an excellent representation of the cars on the lot when new, keep up the great work.




Well said.


Michael L. Mancini
American Muscle Car Restorations, Inc.
65 Foliage Drive
N. Kingstown, RI

Premium Quality Restoration Services for Hi-Performance & Classic Automobiles. OE Specialists.

Instrument Specialties, Inc

www.instrument-specialties.com
www.manciniresto.com
www.performancecargraphics.com
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: Mike Mancini] #76965
06/27/08 06:37 PM
06/27/08 06:37 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,484
Minneapolis, MN
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hemi70se Offline
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Minneapolis, MN
Dave, Fantastic job on the car!

In an earlier post you claimed to not have used any reproduction parts. Does this mean you came up with an NOS battery? I'd like to see a picture of the baked bubbley primer residue you must have recreated on the battery tray.
Also, curious what type of paint you used.
Thanks!

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: hemi70se] #76966
06/27/08 07:18 PM
06/27/08 07:18 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 6,446
NJ-USA
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HPMike Offline
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NJ-USA
Quote:

Dave, Fantastic job on the car!

In an earlier post you claimed to not have used any reproduction parts. Does this mean you came up with an NOS battery? I'd like to see a picture of the baked bubbley primer residue you must have recreated on the battery tray.
Also, curious what type of paint you used.
Thanks!




I also asked about the battery several posts ago, but there was no response. I know there are some originals around that could probably be "restored". I would also love to see a close up of both sides of the trunk mat.

Also as it pertains to the engine. Does the motor have the original pistons and bearings?? Does it have a nylon cam gear and link chain like the originals had. Does it use a rope rear main seal and a leather front damper hub seal?? Is it using an NOS(or original) cam and lifter set?? Let's get some details about the engine build for the gearheads like myself.

MB

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: HPMike] #76967
06/28/08 12:56 AM
06/28/08 12:56 AM
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Posts: 1,711
USA
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ECS Offline
David Walden
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David Walden
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
Quote:

Quote:

Dave, Fantastic job on the car!

In an earlier post you claimed to not have used any reproduction parts. Does this mean you came up with an NOS battery? I'd like to see a picture of the baked bubbley primer residue you must have recreated on the battery tray.
Also, curious what type of paint you used.
Thanks!




I also asked about the battery several posts ago, but there was no response. I know there are some originals around that could probably be "restored". I would also love to see a close up of both sides of the trunk mat.

Also as it pertains to the engine. Does the motor have the original pistons and bearings?? Does it have a nylon cam gear and link chain like the originals had. Does it use a rope rear main seal and a leather front damper hub seal?? Is it using an NOS(or original) cam and lifter set?? Let's get some details about the engine build for the gearheads like myself.

MB




My quote was:
"With the exception of two items (that were custom made and look NOS) nothing on this car is reproduction."

I have found an NOS battery but it was not correctly dated for the car. With 6 weeks left, I still hope to locate one. If not, I will have to do like every other car and use a vintage repop. I have found NOS date specific batteries for my GM and Ford cars but have had one heck of a time trying to locate a correct Chrysler style. Does anyone have an opinion or information as to why they are so hard to find?

I Almost forgot! Nothing special about the engine. Just good old original stock specs on everything.

Last edited by ECS; 06/28/08 01:15 AM.
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76968
06/28/08 03:32 AM
06/28/08 03:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,309
colorado
A
a12superbee Offline
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Posts: 6,309
colorado
I have to agree with 65pacecar, if any humans are involved no 2 'anythings' are exact copies, an overall view is the better choice.
That said, this car is absolutely amazing. A lot of details a lot of us knew nothing about but are thrilled to see. Some of us almost never get to see cars of this caliber, post as many picture as you'd care for us to see. Please. Awesome.

Opps, and thanks!


I can't afford this. mark
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: a12superbee] #76969
06/28/08 06:30 AM
06/28/08 06:30 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
Sooner state
S
Slim Smitty Offline
mopar
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mopar
S

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Posts: 503
Sooner state
Great stuff.
What an amazing job. I wouldn't give a hoot about those guys that are ridin' you for some of the details. Keep posting pics and info for those of us who enjoy seeing the results of your efforts.


- - - - - - - 65 Coronet
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76970
06/28/08 07:29 AM
06/28/08 07:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 466
U.S.A.
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Captain Flapjack Offline
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 466
U.S.A.
Quote:

I have found NOS date specific batteries for my GM and Ford cars but have had one heck of a time trying to locate a correct Chrysler style. Does anyone have an opinion or information as to why they are so hard to find?
.




first off id like to say, phenominal job!!
you guys (steve b, dave w) have raised the bar for all restorations, and your car will be the one that all future oe type restos are compared to.

congrats!!

in ref to the battery, i believe the reason your having such difficulty locating a nos one, is because the service (parts dept) battery is different than the assy line version

again, excellent job, your efforts + results are unparalleled, be proud!

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: HPMike] #76971
06/28/08 03:28 PM
06/28/08 03:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,427
PA
P
PLATINUM6BBL Offline
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Quote:

Also as it pertains to the engine. Does the motor have the original pistons and bearings?? Does it have a nylon cam gear and link chain like the originals had. Does it use a rope rear main seal and a leather front damper hub seal?? Is it using an NOS(or original) cam and lifter set?? Let's get some details about the engine build for the gearheads like myself.

MB



Mike,
It wouldn't surprise me if there were NOS components used in rebuilding of the engine. I know of a dealership that lost their franchise in '78 that still has NOS engine pieces on their shelf! I passed on them as I didn't see a market for them.

Lon


1969-1/2 A12 LOH Road Runner A4 w/ M6S
13.34 at 104 PSMCDR 9/06 in Mopar Action 8/07
12.95 at 105.94 F.A.S.T. 11/06
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: Slim Smitty] #76972
06/28/08 04:29 PM
06/28/08 04:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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ECS Offline
David Walden
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David Walden
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USA
Quote:

Great stuff.
What an amazing job. I wouldn't give a hoot about those guys that are ridin' you for some of the details. Keep posting pics and info for those of us who enjoy seeing the results of your efforts.




Thanks for the input Rob! There is a very, very, very small segment that have a problem with what we are doing or (in actuality) the way we describe what we have accomplished. Ed Norton on the "Honeymooners" had a problem with being called a "sewer worker". He relabeled his position as "an underground engineer." Same exact job, but calling it something other than what it was made him feel better. To help those negative people who need to feel better about our project, let me go on record by saying:

*We have screwed up this project 98.9% and haven't come close to restoring a factory correct vehicle!

*All the features of the car look home made!

*The details fall far short of what we intended them to be!

*Many of the parts are reworked reproduction junk!

Maybe now EVERYONE can feel comfortable with the specifics regarding this thread. Lord knows classifying things for what they are really seem to offend some folks.

(Sorry to deviate from the post Rob....here are a few more pics.)








Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76973
06/28/08 05:45 PM
06/28/08 05:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 243
St. Louis, MO
DodgeMaterial Offline
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DodgeMaterial  Offline
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Posts: 243
St. Louis, MO
Dave - Looking Great!


DodgeMaterial - Dave JS29U0B - FK5 - 440-4 Auto WS23V0A - EB5 - 440-6 Auto
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: DodgeMaterial] #76974
06/28/08 07:23 PM
06/28/08 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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ECS Offline
David Walden
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David Walden
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
Thank you Dave! I had stated in an earlier post that this Challenger project has been the testbed for many new products that we will be providing to the Mopar market. Below is a sample of the heater hose stamping service that we will soon be offering. If a person does not have their original hose we will provide the correct reproduction styles along with the correct date coded lettering. The ink is unlike anything on the market. It has that white/silver cast to it and will not wipe off like the other hoses that are currently being offered. We are also looking into having the correct spark plug wires reproduced. The current ones that are out there do not have the exact factory markings that came from the original manufacturer. Just thought I would pass this along for anyone who might need these items somewhere down the road. Thanks!

DW

4517795-hosecompare.jpg (308 downloads)
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76975
06/29/08 02:41 PM
06/29/08 02:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,962
Enjoy life today, It has an ex...
gtx6970 Offline
Too Many Posts
gtx6970  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,962
Enjoy life today, It has an ex...
not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown


Enjoy life today, It has an expiration date
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: gtx6970] #76976
06/29/08 08:20 PM
06/29/08 08:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
super stock
70RT Charger  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
Quote:

not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown




You think it looks TO GOOD? Im stayin' out of it.

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: gtx6970] #76977
06/29/08 08:39 PM
06/29/08 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
Chally426 Offline
top fuel
Chally426  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,927
Columbus, Ohio
Quote:

not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown




I have to say, I agree. Don't get me wrong it looks good, but I wonder if you could smear it a little

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: ECS] #76978
06/29/08 08:51 PM
06/29/08 08:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,519
Buffalo, NY U.S.A.
MrNormsTA Offline
master
MrNormsTA  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,519
Buffalo, NY U.S.A.
I think to fully get an idea of what is created, some imagination must be used. I am sure engine heat and years must take a toll on many original markings.

Ever see a tattoo on an old person?

Last edited by MrNormsTA; 06/29/08 08:52 PM.
Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: Chally426] #76979
06/29/08 08:58 PM
06/29/08 08:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
super stock
70RT Charger  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
Quote:

Quote:

not to pick ,but the heater hoses almost look TO GOOD

You can tell in the picture the OE 's were stamped / and look smeared as opposed the stenciled look on the repops shown




I have to say, I agree. Don't get me wrong it looks good, but I wonder if you could smear it a little




Beam me up Scotty!Wow something must have happened when I was teleported back,I didn't look this good in 1970.

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: MrNormsTA] #76980
06/29/08 09:08 PM
06/29/08 09:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
70RT Charger Offline
super stock
70RT Charger  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744
eastern,Ky
Quote:

I think to fully get an idea of what is created, some imagination must be used. I am sure engine heat and years must take a toll on many original markings.

Ever see a tattoo on an old person?




I never did see a good tatoo on a old person,but anyways does heat make the numbers move or up or down so that they are not in line any more,my engine must have got really hot because my VIN stamped on my trunk gutter is really crooked and smeared.

Re: Taking it to the next level? Wow! [Re: 70RT Charger] #76981
06/29/08 11:26 PM
06/29/08 11:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 243
St. Louis, MO
DodgeMaterial Offline
enthusiast
DodgeMaterial  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 243
St. Louis, MO
Hard to top that wit.
Seriously - Dave and Steve have really researched and experimented with the torsion bar paint and finish. It seems many of us have not done our homework to the same level concerning the drips on the bars. As we all know they were dipped in paint - leaving drip marks on the length of the bars - but how many of us took the time to make sure the drips were spaced like the original, and have the proper drips per inch? Too cool guys! Also Dave W - where did you find what has to be the last NOS Blue A/C- 3 Speaker dash pad still in the box? I thought I got the last one! Dave


DodgeMaterial - Dave JS29U0B - FK5 - 440-4 Auto WS23V0A - EB5 - 440-6 Auto
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