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The 2011 rule changes are a big turnoff for me. As soon as you take the NHRA engine blueprint specs out of the equation it becomes less "stock" and more about "what two guys think it should be".

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I don't know about the 2011 rules, but when I still had the A12 RR and was looking into their "Certified Pure Stock" rules, I started to get that same "what two guys think it should be" feeling.

First was that they were moving away from allowing 3-angle valve jobs and saying you had to duplicate the OEM single-angle cut. So, how are you supposed to do that w/o being able to add a top and bottom cut to re-set the seat width? That made no sense to me.

The second thing was the big joke IMO re: what was allowed for camshafts. They talk about how the duration and lift need to be w/in 1% (IIRC) of the OEM factory specs, yet they allow you to jack around the LSA all over the place. That's absurd, considering that LSA changes can make as much - or more - differences in how the engine runs than simple duration changes on the OEM LSA.

BTW, at the time I was looking into this, I figured out that according to their own "Certified Pure Stock" rules, Bob K's "Mr. Six Pack Cam" isn't legal. Yet, his car is "Certified". Go figure. Must be a Michigan thing.

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COULD A 30,OVER...STOCK STEEL CRANK 440 WITH
GOOD H-BEAM RODS.
GOOD PISTONS.
825 DR DEMON
FULLY PORTED WIEND INTAKE.
906 STEEL FULLY HOME PORTED HEADS.
STOCK STEEL STAMPED ROCKER ARMS.
STOCK PUSH RODS.
HYD CAM, HYD LIFTER.
AUTOMATIC...3500 CONV...(NO TRANZ BREAK)
8 3/4 REAR 391 RATIO.
3440LB Duster.
run 11.00ETs on motor and 10.00ETs on spray (225 HP Shot) ????????????

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Sorry for coming late to the party, but what exactly about that combination do you think qualifies as "ALMOST STOCK"? All I see is a stock block, a stock crank and OEM-type rockers...

This combination is about as "stock" as yours:

1972 440 Challenger
OEM crank w/ Eagle rods
Ross flat-top pistons 9.8:1 CR
Ported OEM 452 heads w/ 2.14"/1.81" valves
Racer Brown 254 x .520" solid cam
MP M1 intake w/ Holley "950" HP carb on 1" spacer
Hooker Comp 1 7/8" header
Car weighed 3700#s with driver (on track scales)
8 3/4, 4.10 gear, 29.5" x 9" slicks
Full exhaust to rear bumper

This car ran consistent 11.0s @ 121 MPH on pump gas just like I drove it to the track. It dipped into the 10.9s on one occasion, too. Like the other guy(s) said, it's the combination.

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Now you can have any piston you want John. What is so Pure about that?

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COULD A 30,OVER...STOCK STEEL CRANK 440 WITH
GOOD H-BEAM RODS.
GOOD PISTONS.
825 DR DEMON
FULLY PORTED WIEND INTAKE.
906 STEEL FULLY HOME PORTED HEADS.
STOCK STEEL STAMPED ROCKER ARMS.
STOCK PUSH RODS.
HYD CAM, HYD LIFTER.
AUTOMATIC...3500 CONV...(NO TRANZ BREAK)
8 3/4 REAR 391 RATIO.
3440LB Duster.
run 11.00ETs on motor and 10.00ETs on spray (225 HP Shot) ????????????

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Sorry for coming late to the party, but what exactly about that combination do you think qualifies as "ALMOST STOCK"? All I see is a stock block, a stock crank and OEM-type rockers...

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I'm with you on that one ... ...

Oh and not to rain on the A12 parade , anyone pay attention to what Bob K. or Jim Steadman's A12's are tipping the scales at?

What is the factory weight for a B body A12 Coupe ?

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What is the factory weight for a B body A12 Coupe ?

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What is the factory weight for a B body A12 Coupe ?

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FAT

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How FAT? My hardtop bee 383 4 speed with buckets, no console , ramcharger hood, 3/4 tank of fuel, my 190lb butt and a 45 pound bag of tools tipped the scales at 3917.

I've seen numbers like 3400lbs for a couple of A12's SOMEWHERE ?

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What is the factory weight for a B body A12 Coupe ?

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FAT

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How FAT?

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How much did Plymouth claim the Ronnie Sox test car weighed in that big ad they ran back when the A12 RR was introduced? That'll get you into the ballpark. (Sorry, can't see my poster of the ad from here... )

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granted there's no porting allowed, but what about valve jobs? Dwyane porter (fast68plymouth) has a 383 roadrunner bracket car that's in the 11's with unported 906's...while unported, the valve job is not stock...

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BTW, at the time I was looking into this, I figured out that according to their own "Certified Pure Stock" rules, Bob K's "Mr. Six Pack Cam" isn't legal. Yet, his car is "Certified". Go figure. Must be a Michigan thing.

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Oh and not to rain on the A12 parade , anyone pay attention to what Bob K. or Jim Steadman's A12's are tipping the scales at?

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Finally, the Venolia pistons in the NHRA approved list do not have the correct (original) compression height.

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Sent out some e-mail’s and got some helpful information back regarding PSMCDR allowable engine specs.

Venolia Pistons:

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PART#3851 1.997 C.H.
PART#3852 2.060 C.H.

ALL THE PISTONS WE HAVE MADE SO FAR ARE ALL FLAT TOPS. WE WOULD NEED A APPROVED DOME PISTON TO COPY, WHICH WE WOULD SEND TO NHRA FOR APPROVAL.
THANK YOU,
DALE

Cited: e-mail - VENOLIAP@aol.com

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Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race:

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We will perform an NHRA-style inspection where the engine will be checked for proper castings, part numbers, etc. We will be using the NHRA tech bulletins for specifications only, including head cc's, deck height, bore, stroke, cam lift, etc. NHRA allows the use of superceded castings and part numbers, such as heads, which could give the car an advantage over using its original parts. WE WILL NOT ALLOW THIS! The PSMCDR™ rules still apply requiring all engine casting numbers to be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Again, we will be using the NHRA bulletins for various engine numbers (carb., intake, heads, etc), combustion chamber cc's, piston to deck clearance, proper piston configuration, lift at the valve, valve sizes, valve head configurations, valve job, cylinder bore, stroke, head gasket thickness, etc. You are allowed to blueprint your engine to these NHRA specifications only. No NHRA engine building tricks allowed. Just go to their website at http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/index.html to find the blueprint specs for your engine. All aspects of the engine (including castings and components) must retain all factory characteristics. Cited: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race - Certified Stock Rules

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Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race:

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Did you read the Certified Stock Rules on our site? It explains how we use NHRA as a maximum compression guide line only. We don't allow any other NHRA engine building tricks or NHRA allowed engine parts. But after the 2010 event, we will no longer use NHRA for a maximum compression guide line. We will have our own PSMCDR maximum compression chart starting in 2011. There will be some other rule changes also, and we will post them after this years event. If you have any other questions please feel free to write us back. Thanks.

Bob & Dan

Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (TM)

http://www.purestockdrags.com

Cited: e-mail - psmcdr@yahoo.com

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So using NHRA blueprint specs and a basic engine dimension calculator, I came up with the following:

Deck Height: 10.725"
Bore: 4.38"
Stroke: 3.75"
Rod Length: 6.77"
Chamber Vol: 79.5cc
Gasket Thickness: 0.021"
Piston Dome Vol: 0 (take some for valve reliefs?)
Pin Height: 2.060"

Calculated values:

Deck Clearance: 0.020"
Compression Ratio: 11.33:1

The rough estimate from the calculator is not too far off from Bob's published numbers, e.g.,

Deck clearance: 0.027"
Compression Ratio: 11:1

It will be interesting to see the new PSMCDR 2011 rule changes.

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Not sure your point. Yes, you take the wrong pistons, machine the block, and achieve the correct compression distance. The 1970 six pack piston, (2.060") is the wrong piston for the 69. The NHRA spec for that piston is 0.001" in the hole.

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Not sure your point. Yes, you take the wrong pistons, machine the block, and achieve the correct compression distance. The 1970 six pack piston, (2.060") is the wrong piston for the 69. The NHRA spec for that piston is 0.001" in the hole.

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I found the NHRA approved piston list and see what you're saying. The approved Venolia piston for his combo would be the 1.997” piston.

So he’d have to deck his block to 10.669” in order to achieve the NHRA spec of 0.027” deck clearance with the 1.997” piston pin height. That would give him roughly 11.14:1 compression.

He’s also milling the 906 heads to achieve 79.5cc.

Is that amount of decking and milling plausible?

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Not sure your point. Yes, you take the wrong pistons, machine the block, and achieve the correct compression distance. The 1970 six pack piston, (2.060") is the wrong piston for the 69. The NHRA spec for that piston is 0.001" in the hole.

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I found the NHRA approved piston list and see what you're saying. The approved Venolia piston for his combo would be the 1.997” piston.

So he’d have to deck his block to 10.669” in order to achieve the NHRA spec of 0.027” deck clearance with the 1.997” piston pin height. That would give him roughly 11.14:1 compression.

He’s also milling the 906 heads to achieve 79.5cc.

Is that amount of decking and milling plausible?

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If you do the math the 6 pk piston is in the right place on a factory spec block for 68-69, it just needs to loose the valve reliefs, but the PSMCDR certified Stedman's A12 with those pistons a few years ago.

as far as the 1.997 piston being the NHRA approved piston , that makes ZERO sense. Venolia makes pistons, why does a racer have the cut the crap out of his block when the piston maker can just make the proper 2.030 CH piston ?

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COULD A 30,OVER...STOCK STEEL CRANK 440 WITH
GOOD H-BEAM RODS.
GOOD PISTONS.
825 DR DEMON
FULLY PORTED WIEND INTAKE.
906 STEEL FULLY HOME PORTED HEADS.
STOCK STEEL STAMPED ROCKER ARMS.
STOCK PUSH RODS.
HYD CAM, HYD LIFTER.
AUTOMATIC...3500 CONV...(NO TRANZ BREAK)
8 3/4 REAR 391 RATIO.
3440LB Duster.
run 11.00ETs on motor and 10.00ETs on spray (225 HP Shot) ????????????

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COULD A 30,OVER...STOCK STEEL CRANK 440 WITH
GOOD H-BEAM RODS.
GOOD PISTONS.
825 DR DEMON
FULLY PORTED WIEND INTAKE.
906 STEEL FULLY HOME PORTED HEADS.
STOCK STEEL STAMPED ROCKER ARMS.
STOCK PUSH RODS.
HYD CAM, HYD LIFTER.
AUTOMATIC...3500 CONV...(NO TRANZ BREAK)
8 3/4 REAR 391 RATIO.
3440LB Duster.
run 11.00ETs on motor and 10.00ETs on spray (225 HP Shot) ????????????

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I just have to chuckle, lesse:

aftermarket rods
aftermarket pistons
aftermarket carb (different style, holley DP vs the original carter)
ported aftermarket intake
ported heads
509 cam (what OP listed later)

if this is considered "almost stock" I wonder what he'd consider modified?

to me, almost stock is original long block, with a different cam, or original long block with bolt-ons (headers, carb, intake)

BTW, is the 3400 lb duster with or without driver?

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