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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: scatpacktom]
#760292
08/11/10 09:51 PM
08/11/10 09:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I always get a kick out of these threads. Always speculation regarding cheating. Bobs pistons aren't majic,there is not one single majic part in there. I'm sure you have heard this before but it is all about attention to detail in the engine and the car. Learning how to drive doesn't hurt either. 
Tom - never said they are cheeting, and I did not suggest the pistons are magical, just truely curiously what they are using as the 2.03" piston, as far as I know, has not been available for about 15 years.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760293
08/11/10 10:29 PM
08/11/10 10:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,103
Phila Pa
scatpacktom
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,103
Phila Pa
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I can't say that I "know" what piston is in some other guys engine.That said the Pure Stock Drags uses NHRA engine blueprint specs. So granted you get a bit of a compression boost. Any legal NHRA piston would be legal in pure stock. Pure Stock = NHRA engine blueprint specs. F.A.S.T = Stock casting numbers but otherwize inside anything goes. BSB67, I wasn't refering to you
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760295
08/12/10 04:10 AM
08/12/10 04:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,169
CT
GTX MATT
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,169
CT
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Quote:
Quote:
I always get a kick out of these threads. Always speculation regarding cheating. Bobs pistons aren't majic,there is not one single majic part in there. I'm sure you have heard this before but it is all about attention to detail in the engine and the car. Learning how to drive doesn't hurt either.
Tom - never said they are cheeting, and I did not suggest the pistons are magical, just truely curiously what they are using as the 2.03" piston, as far as I know, has not been available for about 15 years.
I agree I always wondered what they were using for pistons as well and couldn't figure it out. Sure enough I went onto Venolia's site and they do have an "NHRA Legal" section for pistons.
I can certainly believe that they do in fact run low 12s in blue print spec engines. First off Bob's cam is legal, that doesn't mean that its stock it just means that its to stock spec for the specs which are measured. Cam technology has come a long way and we now have some cams with extremely agressive ramps available, particularly for Mopars.
Im sure Bobs cam has very agressive ramps and may be worth 10 or so horsepower over the factory cam. And no one even makes a dead stock cam for these things as far as I know.
When these things are built to blue print spec the compression comes out around 11:1. That is a solid point and a half over what is typical of stock, so thats maybe another 5-10 horsepower.
The cars are also using a newer style aftermarket muffler with 2.5 inch tail pipes. I would guess that this is worth at least 5 horsepower.
Given that every tolerance has been adjusted for the absolute best result, there is probably another few horsepower hidden in there.
So I can see where these things are making 30-40 horse over what is typically stock. With an extremely sharp tune and extremely well tuned suspension, I dont see why it seems so unbelieveable that these cars can run low 12s.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#760296
08/12/10 11:14 PM
08/12/10 11:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
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Prospect, PA
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Quote:
So I can see where these things are making 30-40 horse over what is typically stock.
Right, all of that will get you to the 400 hp level and 110 mph
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760297
08/13/10 02:35 AM
08/13/10 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,169
CT
GTX MATT
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,169
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Well keep in mind that the A12 car that ran high 12s with Sox behind the wheel trapped over 110, even with Ro McGonegal driving it trapped over 110, and that was supposedly a tweaked factory car.
So take that car and add a really well tuned suspension.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#760298
08/13/10 09:22 AM
08/13/10 09:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Well keep in mind that the A12 car that ran high 12s with Sox behind the wheel trapped over 110, even with Ro McGonegal driving it trapped over 110, and that was supposedly a tweaked factory car.
So take that car and add a really well tuned suspension.
bottom line is the FAST and Pure Stock guys are spending big $$$ to turn the numbers they do. Neither engine is close to stock, as it came from the factory. And don't kid yourself into thinking an avg Joe Mopar could do a similar build in his garage with "shelf" or stock parts.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#760301
08/14/10 10:34 AM
08/14/10 10:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
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Correct. Sox went 111, in a 4 speed, (add 1.5 - 2 mph vs auto) and it was not stock by most accounts. It was a publicity exercise.
Suspension will change the et, not the mph (i.e. hp).
Exactly, the mile per hour is the same pretty much, the ET has just dropped half a second. As I recall the Pure Stock Cars usually run around 12.3 or 12.4 at around 112 or 113.
Pure Stock as in off the show room floor or as in pure stock the drag class. BIG difference
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#760302
08/15/10 02:58 AM
08/15/10 02:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,169
CT
GTX MATT
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Quote:
Quote:
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Correct. Sox went 111, in a 4 speed, (add 1.5 - 2 mph vs auto) and it was not stock by most accounts. It was a publicity exercise.
Suspension will change the et, not the mph (i.e. hp).
Exactly, the mile per hour is the same pretty much, the ET has just dropped half a second. As I recall the Pure Stock Cars usually run around 12.3 or 12.4 at around 112 or 113.
Pure Stock as in off the show room floor or as in pure stock the drag class. BIG difference
Sorry, Im referring to the pure stock drag racing. As I recall they run around 12.30 at 113ish compared to the tweaked car that Sox ran. So the trap speed hasnt gone up much. Im aware that the car Sox ran was not regular stock and was something tweaked, probably similarly tweaked to what the Pure Stock Drags cars have done to them. As I recall the typical A12 car trapped around 105.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#760303
08/15/10 09:40 AM
08/15/10 09:40 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Correct. Sox went 111, in a 4 speed, (add 1.5 - 2 mph vs auto) and it was not stock by most accounts. It was a publicity exercise.
Suspension will change the et, not the mph (i.e. hp).
Exactly, the mile per hour is the same pretty much, the ET has just dropped half a second. As I recall the Pure Stock Cars usually run around 12.3 or 12.4 at around 112 or 113.
Pure Stock as in off the show room floor or as in pure stock the drag class. BIG difference
Sorry, Im referring to the pure stock drag racing. As I recall they run around 12.30 at 113ish compared to the tweaked car that Sox ran. So the trap speed hasnt gone up much. Im aware that the car Sox ran was not regular stock and was something tweaked, probably similarly tweaked to what the Pure Stock Drags cars have done to them. As I recall the typical A12 car trapped around 105.
One or both of us is not rembering correctly. The details are important and we'll never really know what was done to the Sox propaganda test car. However, generally speaking, put an auto in the Sox car, it would likely have been a 109 or 110 mph car. In 2003 the fastest the pure stock guys were at 111 mph. Today they are at 115. In 2003, only Bob was in the 12.30s, the others were in the .40s and .50s. Today they are in the 12.0s. The 60 ft times have been essentially constant over that time (i.e. all of the gains are from additional hp, none from suspension).
To say that the performance that the pure stock A12 guys are achieving today makes sense, truely understates their achievements.
Finally, the Venolia pistons in the NHRA approved list do not have the correct (original) compression height.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760305
08/15/10 10:11 PM
08/15/10 10:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Finally, the Venolia pistons in the NHRA approved list do not have the correct (original) compression height.
Venolia does not list compression heights on their web site that I can find. Do you have their information?
Also, what was the actual measured compression height of an (original) 1969 440 6bbl?
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: CompSyn]
#760306
08/15/10 11:42 PM
08/15/10 11:42 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Finally, the Venolia pistons in the NHRA approved list do not have the correct (original) compression height.
Venolia does not list compression heights on their web site that I can find. Do you have their information?
Also, what was the actual measured compression height of an (original) 1969 440 6bbl?
3851 = 1.997
3852 = 2.060
Original is 2.03" or so. My 2286's measure 2.032".
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: joewhite440]
#760307
08/15/10 11:47 PM
08/15/10 11:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
BSB67
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,324
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
I have posted this on here before and the car is in the garage right beside me, it is possible.
I built the engine that is in the Duster. We ran it first in my sons 68 Satellite and ran 11:40's. It now runs solid 10:90's and has went as fast as 10:75 in good air. No Spray just Cam 2 and the pedal!
Here are the specs.
1969 440
Stock rods with ARP bolts.
Pistons are JE 11.5 to one with 906 heads.Not cut.
Heads have stock valves and are ported and Bowl cut. 590 Mopar Perfomance Solid Cam.
Intake is an original Torker with a 1 inch spacer and an 850 Holley.
Hooker Super comp fenderwell headers 1 7/8
Car has Fiberglass fenders and hood. It weighs 3250 with the Driver.
It has an 8 3/4, 430 gear, SS springs and 28X10.5 Slicks.
Sometimes it is not all horsepower, just the right combinations.
Joe Sr
Nice!
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: BSB67]
#760308
08/24/10 08:02 AM
08/24/10 08:02 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Finally, the Venolia pistons in the NHRA approved list do not have the correct (original) compression height.
Sent out some e-mail’s and got some helpful information back regarding PSMCDR allowable engine specs.
Venolia Pistons:
Quote:
PART#3851 1.997 C.H.
PART#3852 2.060 C.H.
ALL THE PISTONS WE HAVE MADE SO FAR ARE ALL FLAT TOPS. WE WOULD NEED A APPROVED DOME PISTON TO COPY, WHICH WE WOULD SEND TO NHRA FOR APPROVAL.
THANK YOU,
DALE
Cited: e-mail - VENOLIAP@aol.com
Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race:
Quote:
We will perform an NHRA-style inspection where the engine will be checked for proper castings, part numbers, etc. We will be using the NHRA tech bulletins for specifications only, including head cc's, deck height, bore, stroke, cam lift, etc. NHRA allows the use of superceded castings and part numbers, such as heads, which could give the car an advantage over using its original parts. WE WILL NOT ALLOW THIS! The PSMCDR™ rules still apply requiring all engine casting numbers to be correct for the year, model, and horsepower claimed. Again, we will be using the NHRA bulletins for various engine numbers (carb., intake, heads, etc), combustion chamber cc's, piston to deck clearance, proper piston configuration, lift at the valve, valve sizes, valve head configurations, valve job, cylinder bore, stroke, head gasket thickness, etc. You are allowed to blueprint your engine to these NHRA specifications only. No NHRA engine building tricks allowed. Just go to their website at http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/engine/index.html to find the blueprint specs for your engine. All aspects of the engine (including castings and components) must retain all factory characteristics. Cited: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race - Certified Stock Rules
Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race:
Quote:
Did you read the Certified Stock Rules on our site? It explains how we use NHRA as a maximum compression guide line only. We don't allow any other NHRA engine building tricks or NHRA allowed engine parts. But after the 2010 event, we will no longer use NHRA for a maximum compression guide line. We will have our own PSMCDR maximum compression chart starting in 2011. There will be some other rule changes also, and we will post them after this years event. If you have any other questions please feel free to write us back. Thanks.
Bob & Dan
Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (TM)
http://www.purestockdrags.com
Cited: e-mail - psmcdr@yahoo.com
So using NHRA blueprint specs and a basic engine dimension calculator, I came up with the following:
Deck Height: 10.725"
Bore: 4.38"
Stroke: 3.75"
Rod Length: 6.77"
Chamber Vol: 79.5cc
Gasket Thickness: 0.021"
Piston Dome Vol: 0 (take some for valve reliefs?)
Pin Height: 2.060"
Calculated values:
Deck Clearance: 0.020"
Compression Ratio: 11.33:1
The rough estimate from the calculator is not too far off from Bob's published numbers, e.g.,
Deck clearance: 0.027"
Compression Ratio: 11:1
It will be interesting to see the new PSMCDR 2011 rule changes.
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Re: ALMOST STOCK 440 11.00 ON MOTOR?
[Re: CompSyn]
#760309
08/24/10 08:52 AM
08/24/10 08:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,103
Phila Pa
scatpacktom
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,103
Phila Pa
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The 2011 rule changes are a big turnoff for me.  As soon as you take the NHRA engine blueprint specs out of the equation it becomes less "stock" and more about "what two guys think it should be". Some changes may be in store for my pure stock projects.
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