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1970 Challenger electrical gremlins #708904
05/26/10 08:59 PM
05/26/10 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 659
Anderson, IN
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1969RR Offline OP
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Anderson, IN
Hello again! Sorry, but this is gonna be long! Just got the car all back together. Let me tell you a bit about the build. It is a 383, 4 speed. Most everything new. I installed a new engine harness, the modified one for electronic ignition. The balast is the 4 prong style. Everything under the hood is new, electrical wise. I had the dash out. Installed a new under dash harness (ralley guage). I checked all the guages with a 9v battery, all "swept" like they should. I bought a new ammeter guage and limiter from Dash Worx. Now for the issue! MOST everything works, lights normal, wipers normal, fan normal, dash lights, oil pressure guage works, even the reverse light works! When I turn the key "on" the amp guage does nothing. No movement at all. Gas guage, nothing, temp guage, nothing. Like I said, the only guage that works is the oil guage. Car started!! But, will not turn off with the key. Unhook neg bat cable, shuts off. I check and have power at all 4 prongs at the resistor with key off! Both wires on the back of the alternator have power with key off. When I got the car, it would shut off normally. I have since done all this work! Where do I start troubleshooting??? Again, Sorry this is sooooo long! Thanks in advance!! Jeff

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708905
05/26/10 11:57 PM
05/26/10 11:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,521
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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The only wire at the alternator that should have 12 volts with the key off is the big main black one to the stud.
The other two (blue and green on my '71) are field wires from the regulator.
I think the reason the car won't shut off when you turn the key off is because the coil circuit or the ballast is still gettingpower from somewhere.....MAYBE the same place those other alternator wires are getting it too.
Start trouble shooting the ignition switch,ballast and regulator circuits...I think there-in lies the problem.

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708906
05/27/10 03:16 AM
05/27/10 03:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Just happen on this post late, not that I go on this part of the forum much, but my bet currently without checking much is the alternator regulator area.

Unplug the dark blue wire with the tracer from the alternator. Check the wire for voltage. It should not have voltage with the key off. If it has voltage look in the direction of the ignition switch. If it does not have voltage, leave unplugged and go to next step.

Check the other field wire at the alternator for voltage also check the resistor for voltage. If there is voltage remove wire (alt/reg side) from resistor check the wire for voltage, if there is still voltage remove the alternator and have it tested.

Quote:

Unhook neg bat cable, shuts off.




Normally speaking the car would still run if you were to remove the battery cable as the alternator would still supply voltage to the electrical system. It did not in this instance, further pointing the finger at the alternator area.

Of course this is all assuming the harness was correctly installed.

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708907
05/27/10 05:58 AM
05/27/10 05:58 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
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You have a switched lead and a constant source power lead switched somewhere. The ignition needs a switched lead or the car will not turn off.


No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 70Coronet500Vert] #708908
05/27/10 12:04 PM
05/27/10 12:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 659
Anderson, IN
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1969RR Offline OP
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Anderson, IN
Hello! Again, thanks for the help! Went home at lunch, unhooked voltage regulator, STILL power at all 4 wires at the resistor block. Unhook each of the wires at back of alternator, both have power to the wire, even un-hooked. When I stated that I can un-hook the NEG cable and car will shut off, this is with the key in the off position, so I'm assuming that this kills the power at the resistor block and shuts off the power to the coil?? You think my problem is an underhood wire issue, or ignition switch? I just hate to have to take the column all back apart! Just my luck tho. Anyone have any ideas concerning the ammeter. As I said, it does not move at all when I turn key off & on...I do have to turn the key to ON to get the turn signals to work, so it must be switching power off and on..or am I thinking incorrectly? Thanks again! Jeff

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708909
05/27/10 12:13 PM
05/27/10 12:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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So Cal
Let me shut down my computer and restart. Even though I'm on google Chrome the computer is popping up virus alerts about this site every 45 seconds. Getting very frustrating. Hopefully I can come back...


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708910
05/27/10 12:51 PM
05/27/10 12:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 659
Anderson, IN
1
1969RR Offline OP
mopar
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Anderson, IN
Hey Allen, I know that feeling! Mine did that last night. I couldn't do anything. Was able to fix today luckly! Don't know what is going on with the virus issue! Talk to ya later! Jeff

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708911
05/27/10 01:39 PM
05/27/10 01:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Unplug each wire at the resistor block until you find out which wire is hot.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708912
05/27/10 02:18 PM
05/27/10 02:18 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 659
Anderson, IN
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1969RR Offline OP
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Anderson, IN
Allen, They are ALL hot all the time, plugged in or not. What should I look at that is feeding all 4 wires? Thanks, Jeff

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708913
05/27/10 02:21 PM
05/27/10 02:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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So Cal
Each one of the wire ends are hot when unplugged from the resistor? Not asking to check the resister itself but the wires themselves when disconnected.

Last edited by HealthServices; 05/27/10 02:23 PM.

Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708914
05/27/10 02:29 PM
05/27/10 02:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Follow the resister wires (one is brown, and the other is blue with a tracer) to the bulkhead connector. Disconnect it at the bulk head and check the firewall connector for voltage where these two wires would normally go in, they should be dead with the ignition off.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708915
05/27/10 02:31 PM
05/27/10 02:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,521
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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Resistor gets it's power from the ignition switch.
Should be bluewire. This wire is also spliced into the Alt/Reg circuit.
I'm suspecting the ignition switch itself, or the wires in the harness maybe not in the right cavity at the switch or bulkhead.
Frustrating ain't it?

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: superwrench] #708916
05/27/10 03:00 PM
05/27/10 03:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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The harness should look something similar to this. Click the picture after you hit the attachment for a larger view.

Last edited by HealthServices; 05/27/10 05:02 PM.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708917
05/27/10 03:36 PM
05/27/10 03:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices Offline
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You mentioned that you still have voltage at the resistors when the regulator is disconnected and the key is ‘off’. This tells me the Brown wire is still hot (battery voltage) with the key off still. Please double check this as this does direct you to something mis-wired or a issue at or near your ignition switch as others have indicated. This also means more work.

Make sure your wiring is the same at the diagram as this is what I am going by.

And to hopefully keep you from going crazy going back and forth between two pages, I colored the wires and pasted the two pages together. Unfortunately it is a little big.

Last edited by HealthServices; 05/27/10 05:44 PM.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708918
05/27/10 08:22 PM
05/27/10 08:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 659
Anderson, IN
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1969RR Offline OP
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Hello! Did some more troubleshooting tonite after work. Allen, thank you, for the wiring diagrams! I disconnected the connector from the ignition switch, as I'm doing this, I hear "clicking"By the glove box, the relay "clicks", According to the wiring digrams this is the "key in buzzer" relay. With this plugged in, everything under the hood has power, BUT, as soon as I take the key completely out of the tumblers, ALL the power is gone under the hood, car shuts off normally. Why is the key causing the continuity? IF I turn the car off, leave key in, it will stay running. If I shut car off, then remove key, it will shut off normally... Remember, I am using an underdash harness from Y1, it said it is like the 1971 and this relay is the horn relay..??? Does this relay even need to be plugged in? Everything works without it. I don't have the "key in" buzzer anyway, or a horn for that matter! AND, what about the VOLT meter, it does nothing (it is brand new) is it possible to hook it up backwards, the red and black wire?? Would it matter?? The alt is not charging also. Boy, this has been a learning experience, and I couldn't have done it without all you guys!! A BIG thank you!! Jeff

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: 1969RR] #708919
05/27/10 10:59 PM
05/27/10 10:59 PM
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Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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So Cal
I don't know if it is too many questions or they are jumbled together, or what, but I cannot follow. Maybe all of them.


Quote:

Hello! Did some more troubleshooting tonite after work. Allen, thank you, for the wiring diagrams!




You are welcome I will try ton answer what questions I can.

Quote:

I disconnected the connector from the ignition switch, as I'm doing this, I hear "clicking"By the glove box, the relay "clicks", According to the wiring digrams this is the "key in buzzer" relay.




It is normal for it to click.

Quote:

With this plugged in,




The key, the connector, or the relay? Or all of them?

Quote:

everything under the hood has power, BUT, as soon as I take the key completely out of the tumblers, ALL the power is gone under the hood, car shuts off normally. Why is the key causing the continuity? IF I turn the car off, leave key in, it will stay running. If I shut car off, then remove key, it will shut off normally...




Sounds like an issue with the ignition assembly.


Quote:

Remember, I am using an underdash harness from Y1, it said it is like the 1971 and this relay is the horn relay..???




I don't follow on this part at all, what are you saying?

Quote:

Does this relay even need to be plugged in? Everything works without it. I don't have the "key in" buzzer anyway, or a horn for that matter! AND, what about the VOLT meter, it does nothing (it is brand new) is it possible to hook it up backwards, the red and black wire?? Would it matter?? The alt is not charging also. Boy, this has been a learning experience, and I couldn't have done it without all you guys!! A BIG thank you!! Jeff




I don't think you should be worried about so many things at one time. I think you should worry about one thing at a time.

I do think you should concentrate on the Ignition not shutting off first.

I'm not sure if I understand the above statements but it sounds like you have an issue with the ignition assembly.

Last edited by HealthServices; 05/27/10 11:21 PM.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708920
05/27/10 11:24 PM
05/27/10 11:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,521
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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I may be out to lunch...BUT...take a lookat that wiring diagram real close. Notice that the dark blue wire(with tracer) that is coming out of the key-in relay circuit is going directly to the resistor/regulator/alternator splice. They all share that same blue wire.
Now..take a look at the red wire to that relay. It's going back to the ignition switch.
Could it be the switch is hooped,or as i mentioned before, maybe the wires at the switch connector are not installed right from the manufacturer and the key-in system is supplying voltage to the coil etc as soon as the key is plugged in?
Just my thought

Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: superwrench] #708921
05/27/10 11:35 PM
05/27/10 11:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Maybe, I wonder what happens if you unplug the key-in warning buzzer then? Let me circle the item I think you are talking about.

I can't seem to follow anybody today.


Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708922
05/28/10 12:11 AM
05/28/10 12:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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You are talking about these areas right?

6007106-thisgreysection.jpg (3006 downloads)
Last edited by HealthServices; 05/28/10 12:15 AM.

Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
Re: 1970 Challenger electrical gremlins [Re: HealthServices] #708923
05/28/10 09:26 AM
05/28/10 09:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,521
PORT ALBERNI , BC., CANADA
superwrench Offline
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Exactly. And further more, notice the "oil warning" lamp or circuit is tied in with that blue wire. The OP said his oil guage was the only thing that worked. H-m-m-m

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