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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685543
05/12/10 10:59 AM
05/12/10 10:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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Good Grief. So many comments, so little information. It's really quite simple: Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't. "Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured. Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all? It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at 200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road. What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump! The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong 
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685544
05/12/10 11:45 AM
05/12/10 11:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Good Grief.
So many comments, so little information.
It's really quite simple:
Either coolant flow is adequate, or it isn't.
"Running something at 2-- degrees" and the engine's relative happiness or unhappiess doesn't account for where the temp is measured.
Does anyone believe that the location in the water pump where the sensor is located is the be all, end all?
It's not that a 440 "doesn't like" the temp being at
200-something degrees---they will, in fact, run hundreds of thousands of miles if the true coolant temp at the hottest point in the engine is 210 to 220. The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road.
What do all the gurus think the coolant temperature is in the middle of the cylinder head, where two exhaust valves are located right next to each other? How about inside the block, directly below that area? Here's a hint: It's a whole lot hotter than where the temp is measured at in the water pump!
The water pump housings in question sound screwed up to me, I either use stock ones or MP Aluminum.... but beyond that most of this discussion seems kinda hopeless....I mean...Older cars worn out at 70k miles? WTH does that have to do with a coolant temp discussion? My 176,000 mile '78 B body and my 210,000 mile '83 M body kinda kill that statement anyway. If all your stuff is worn out at 70k miles, you're doing something wrong
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: DusterKrazy]
#685546
05/12/10 04:07 PM
05/12/10 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
I do not agree. I've never seen a 318 worn out at 70-80k miles, much less a /6. If they wore out it is simply because people did not take care of them 
I found the claim rather amusing as well considering my Duster has a 318 with 119,000 miles on the clock and it runs great.
Under the work bench I have several 440 engines and most of them had over 100k on the clock too when they were pulled from cars several years ago.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685547
05/13/10 06:13 AM
05/13/10 06:13 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,061
New Mexico
dmerc
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,061
New Mexico
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For what it's worth, I just got a CAT water pump for my 360 engine and it has an impeller designed for CCW rotation(looking at the pulley end.) If you spin an impeller backwards, it will pump fluid but at a reduced rate. I'll be sending this pump back. See the attachment. Maybe Doug is having the same problem?
Last edited by dmerc; 05/13/10 06:51 AM.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: dmerc]
#685548
06/24/10 09:47 PM
06/24/10 09:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
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I finally have run my new motor enough to say that I am having NO problems with my 440 Source housing & pump. I put in a 160 T-stat and the hottest I have seen it is 170.
1968 Roadrunner 383 auto
.060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: 68 Roadrunner]
#685549
06/25/10 01:49 PM
06/25/10 01:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 477
mr norms avenue
5571
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 477
mr norms avenue
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this was a great thread to read. My friends 440 daytona ran hot when he put a new pump on (think it was a 440source believe it or not), and when he went and talked to another daytona owner, who convinced him the stock pump is a better bet to get rebuilt (which he did), it ran cooler right away.
It always pays to check the fan clutch on high milege cars, I had a 395/425hp vette that is factory 11:1 compression. The new edlebrock water pump I put on that was not as good as the original one (rebuilt), it actually ran hotter. It did not move the water at idle like the factory pump, at all. Also, the fan clutch, was shot with the fluid that leaked out over time. I always vindicate looking at the fan clutch, like said on this thread.
Also, if your car is a high compression motor, I strongly recommend keeping the octane high. My vette runs great, if its largely on racing fuel. Nice and cool. If I ever put in 93 octane, if I have to cause it gets low, it wants to run hot, then overheats. With that car, the octane level makes all the difference. I also run it rich, to help keep it cool. A lean carb will come back and bite you with 10s of degrees on the temp guage. My friends daytona shed some temp when he added some octane booster.
my 2 cents. always rebuilt the factory pump first (do not assume new pumps are better than the factory pump), make sure the fan clutch locks up at temperature (and does not slip), and have the right fuel/octane and set the carb on the rich side.
67 hemi GTX silver 4spd, 70 cuda convert 340 4spd, 71 cuda 340 4spd (Curious Yellow, white billboards/interior), 70 Mr Norm's Challenger 440 4spd
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#685550
06/25/10 04:00 PM
06/25/10 04:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay... It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed  People are always looking for the cheapest possible thing they can get, but at the same time they just have to have the trick of the week because it makes their 3900lb car 8lbs lighter. A stock 1969 iron housing from the junkyard will function properly, was made properly, and looks great after blasting and paint. If a person wants to cheap out, that's how to do it. Forget aluminum unless a little extra money is available for one well known to work properly.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: ZIPPY]
#685554
07/17/10 12:34 AM
07/17/10 12:34 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,198
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,198
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
"hogwash" to comments that were never made, Oooo kay...
It's a free country, feel free to debate something that never existed
Sorry Zip, you said this, so yes, the comment was made. Therefore, my comment in reply that an engine running hotter than before when measured in the same location was valid. It is perfectly fine to debate things. Here are your comments-
"The problem is that the coolant temp isn't being measured at it's hottest point, and we don't know what it is at the hottest point when driving down the road."
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Ramrod39]
#685556
07/17/10 03:09 PM
07/17/10 03:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
68 Roadrunner
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 130
Marcell, MN
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Just thought I would give a quick update. Still no problems with my 440 source pump and housing. I have never seen the temp gauge over 190.
1968 Roadrunner 383 auto
.060 KB 400 domed pistons, Stealth heads, Torker intake, Holley 830, Lunati Voodoo cam 276/284, .513/.533, TCI 3500, 3.91 gears, all ARP fasteners,
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685560
07/18/10 03:28 PM
07/18/10 03:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
Commando1
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,336
South-Central (Sebring), FL
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Quote:
It's a very well known fact in the industry that the late model motors are designed and built better then ever and last longer then ever.
I grant you that fact.
Hopefully, you'll you'll allow me to express something I believe in. It's a guess. No facts to back it up.
I feel if you take a good 60's - 70's engine, and, rebuild it using the best of today's components, it will last longer than today's overstressed (in my opinion) engines.
Also, take away the 'puter from today's engines, I feel, actually puts them at a disadvantage.
But again, I WILL grant you theyare seriously more efficient at extracting the last hp out of engines designed today. I just don't think they are "better". I really don't want a 3.sumthing engine putting out 500+ hp in my DD. I hate things run at 150% day in and day out. I feel safer crossing a bridge with a safety factor of 2 rather than one that has it's capacity at it's 150% physical limits. Yes the new bridge will work quite nicely. When new.
One last question to ponder, and maybe slightly OT, but what do you think an engine designed TODAY would look like if gasoline was still at $0.25/gallon (comparitively), and, let the marketplace drive design rather than federal regulators?.
Last edited by Commando1; 07/18/10 03:39 PM.
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685561
07/18/10 04:10 PM
07/18/10 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,942
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I suspose i could have left the car tied up for weeks waitting to find one on ebag and hope it wasn't damaged when it got here.
Did you post a want ad, I must have at least 5 68-69 housings in the basement.
I replaced mine to save the weight , 8 lbs off the nose is 8 lbs off the nose ...
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Re: Running hot with 440 source housing and pump
[Re: Dougsmopars]
#685562
07/18/10 09:21 PM
07/18/10 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,280
808CUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,280
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Quote:
I put the high flow Milodon pump with there high flow stat temp droped 20 degree's.
Thanks for the update Doug, I ordered my Milodon HV pump and stat today. I'll post my findings when I get it done.
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