Quote:

---

I guess that seems more complex to me adding a trigger wheel.

I like the fact it is all in the distributer. Less add on's to the engine, less aftermarket parts to buy vs a junkyard pull.

---

Quote:

---

Save your money, your hair (because you will pull it all out trying to rig that), and time. Buy a carb and be done. EFI will not give you any perfromance upgrades over a carb.

---

Quote:

---

The painless system uses the shutter wheel and halls effect sensor. Just not sure how it matches up to the ford system, or if it would be helpfull to anyone to make a few more of them.
It just drops into the mag distributer.

---

Quote:

---

While I agree for the most part, efi won't give you perfomance over a carb, it does offer quite a few benifits.

I get in and know it is going to start. I can stop and not worry about it dying at a light.
As a cruiser it is very important that it be more reliable then the power factor.

---

The main reason I want to go EFI on my truck is for drive-ability and reliability. Know that it will always start, idle well, re-start when warm, etc. Currently I have to let it warm up for 10 minutes before I can put it in gear to move it. The idle is also inconsistent (750 sometimes, 1100 other times). All stuff that can be fixed, likely with a new carb.

Since I can get the harness, sensors & dizzy for free, I could either spend $300 on a new carb (mine was a fleabay special ), or buy a Quarterhorse programmer and some elbow grease on top of the new engine build.

Quote:

---

The Ford ECM reportedly looks at the distance/time between rising/falling edges on the shutter wheel and it may not like the Mopar Hall sensor signal due to difference in diameter of wheel.

---

Wheel diameter won't make a difference in the timing. Even if the sensor is on the outside of the disc rather than the inside, they still come around at the same time. One of my products has an inductive sensor measuring the time between tabs on a coupler to get speed and distance (knowing the drum diameter). Big or small diameter, the results are the same.

I was tentatively planning on doing a Mass Air install. With the QH/Tweecer, you can change the firing (injection) order, fill in the actual displacement, set up the calibration for larger injectors & maf, etc. You can even change the advance curve.

I was under the impression that MA also did bank-bank adjustments like SD does.

I've looked a little bit at Megasquirt. But especially if we can get the mopar hall effect to work with the ford system, it would be easier (to me) to just install the new dizzy than to fab on the trigger wheel.

I hadn't seen half of those links you included. I'd definitely be interested in any other information you have.

Maybe today I'll pull the ford distributor and start looking it over.

Quote:

---

While I agree for the most part, efi won't give you perfomance over a carb, it does offer quite a few benifits.

It has take 2 years to get my car drivable with the painless system. but I have driven it more now with it hooked up in one week then I did when it was carbed for a whole year.

I get in and know it is going to start. I can stop and not worry about it dying at a light.
As a cruiser it is very important that it be more reliable then the power factor.

It has died on me once, but when it was carbed it died multiple times a year.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Save your money, your hair (because you will pull it all out trying to rig that), and time. Buy a carb and be done. EFI will not give you any perfromance upgrades over a carb.

---

And here comes Yuck, trying to save us from ourselves, by dropping his 'carbs are the best' turd in yet another informative EFI discussion.

Some of us want to try new things and like challenges. If you don't want to try new technology, or help others that do, why not stay out of the way???

---

Quote:

---

While I agree for the most part, efi won't give you perfomance over a carb, it does offer quite a few benifits.

It has take 2 years to get my car drivable with the painless system. but I have driven it more now with it hooked up in one week then I did when it was carbed for a whole year.

I get in and know it is going to start. I can stop and not worry about it dying at a light.
As a cruiser it is very important that it be more reliable then the power factor.

It has died on me once, but when it was carbed it died multiple times a year.

---

Quote:

---

Wheel diameter won't make a difference in the timing. Even if the sensor is on the outside of the disc rather than the inside, they still come around at the same time. One of my products has an inductive sensor measuring the time between tabs on a coupler to get speed and distance (knowing the drum diameter). Big or small diameter, the results are the same.

---

Quote:

---

I was under the impression that MA also did bank-bank adjustments like SD does.

---

Quote:

---

Agreed, angular velocity is the same for a given engine RPM. However, teh Ford and Mopar shutter wheels have different tooth and gap widths, which affects timing of the rise/fall signals to teh EEC. Also, the 'oddball' tooth that it uses to sense #1 is different, and it's surely clocked in a different spot on the shaft because Ford and Mopar denote different cylinders as #1.

With the proper clocking it might work OK as-is, I just didn't get that far as I'm still waiting to put the wheel on a bigblock dizzy shaft. Otherwise, I believe the Mopar wheel could be modified to emulate the Ford teeth.

---

Ahh, yep, that would make a difference for sure. Is the wheel just a disc, and not a stamped 3D thing? If it's just a disc, it seems like it would be straightforward to design a new one and have a water jet cut it out.

I recall reading somewhere that it does sequential injection at lower RPMs to help with idle quality, then above some set RPM it transitions to bank fire??

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

While I agree for the most part, efi won't give you perfomance over a carb, it does offer quite a few benifits.

It has take 2 years to get my car drivable with the painless system. but I have driven it more now with it hooked up in one week then I did when it was carbed for a whole year.

I get in and know it is going to start. I can stop and not worry about it dying at a light.
As a cruiser it is very important that it be more reliable then the power factor.

It has died on me once, but when it was carbed it died multiple times a year.

---

Well something must have been very wrong with your carb setup if that was the case. People daily drove cars for over half a century. I daily drive my thermoquad equiped 440 to work every day spring-fall. It's never died on me or left me stranded, only time I've ever stalled it is before I got the choke dialed in properly. Cold driveability is actually quite good, I typically fire it, let it warm up 30 seconds, kick it down and go, even on days when the temp is near freezing, a 30-60 second warm-up is all I do. Of course efi will still be better in that situation, however a well tuned carb is quite under-rated in terms of driveability. I stress the well tuned part, which generally are not, going by the guys on this board. I'm not putting efi down, I myself have a megasquirt, efi intake and all the parts to make it work but I still waffle as to whether I want to go through with it because a well tuned carb is actually quite decent, and a lot less effort.

---

Exactly!!! When I was younger I do not recall cars constantly stalling at lights, or anyone complaining they couldn't drive them. they all drove fine.

And it's not like that's changed.

Quote:

---

I am trying to help him. There is no easy cheap way to EFI an old mopar. If you grabbed everything for the host vehicle, that'd be the best way to go. If you have added any perfromace upgrades it will not work so you have to start chopping and piecing things together, that get's expesive and tricky as you go.

---

Quote:

---

Most of us do not have the skills to set up and computerize EFI set-up. If a person can't tune a carb how the heck is he/she going to fab up a EFI system???

---

True, lots of folks don't have the skills, but please identify who those people in this thread are. Maybe I’m one of them, I always thought I was OK with carbs, then I got a wideband and realized how bad my AF was on a carb that ‘felt’ like it drove well. I’ve got a buddy that’s ‘good with carbs’, his run fine when they’re cold with no choke, and he thinks that’s fine simply because it runs smooth. He wastes fuel – but not enough to blacken the plugs, so it’s OK for him. I think there are a lot of people out there like that. The performance and economy of their cars is less than it could be but they don’t know any different.

Quote:

---

There is zero need for an EFI set-up on most of these muscle cars. Any benfit in mpg's or "drivablity" is crushed by the cost of the EFI system.

---

Quote:

---

Is the wheel just a disc, and not a stamped 3D thing? If it's just a disc, it seems like it would be straightforward to design a new one and have a water jet cut it out.

---

Quote:

---

I recall reading somewhere that it does sequential injection at lower RPMs to help with idle quality, then above some set RPM it transitions to bank fire??

---

Quote:

---

It's kinda like an upside down tuna can with some notches cut out from the bottom. I put both wheels in CAD, overlayed them, and aligned the #1 tooth. Based on drawing 16 angular lines from the center of the Mopar circle (aligned with rising/falling edges), I believe some simple work with a file can get the Dodge wheel pretty close to the Ford wheel -- at least close enough to make it worth a try.

---

ugh, that'd be hard to fab. I just called a pretty good machine/fabrication shop here. They can't take a flat piece and stamp it into a tuna can, but they think they could bend it into a circle and weld it to a top plate. Whether or not it would be balanced and true though...

What sensor and shutter wheel did you find?

Quote:

---

My main point is EFI is really no better than a well tuned carb, but cost 6x as much. If you want EFI just say it, don't say you want it because it drives better or gets better milage.

---

Gotta keep beating on the belief that a well-tuned carb is as good as EFI. It can work well and is cheaper/simpler. That's where the comparison ends.

As an example of what the 5.0 EEC does (other OEM systems may do it also):
With TPS = zero and engine RPM > 1500, pulsewidth ->> zero. What this means is when coasting above 1500 RPM, the fuel injectors are turned off.

Carbs can't do that, in fact my AF gauge shows my 440 goes at least 1 full point richer when coasting. I presume this is because of the very high vacuum and the closed throttle -- the above-idle engine speed sucks lots of fuel out of the idle circuit.

I have observed this phenomenom repeatedly with my Lincoln. When coasting down one particular long hill in town, I generally see 125+ MPG by the time I hit the bottom. Last time I tried it I put it in neutral (engien went to idle so the strategy turned off) and only got about 75.

Side note:
If retrofitting a 5.0 (or probably any other OEM system) make sure to integrate the Vehicle Speed Sensor as the EEC uses info from that for saving fuel and also for a good idle when coasting to a stop. This is described in the Pantera link I posted earler.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My main point is EFI is really no better than a well tuned carb, but cost 6x as much. If you want EFI just say it, don't say you want it because it drives better or gets better milage.

---

Gotta keep beating on the belief that a well-tuned carb is as good as EFI. It can work well and is cheaper/simpler. That's where the comparison ends.

As an example of what the 5.0 EEC does (other OEM systems may do it also):
With TPS = zero and engine RPM > 1500, pulsewidth ->> zero. What this means is when coasting above 1500 RPM, the fuel injectors are turned off.

Carbs can't do that, in fact my AF gauge shows my 440 goes at least 1 full point richer when coasting. I presume this is because of the very high vacuum and the closed throttle -- the above-idle engine speed sucks lots of fuel out of the idle circuit.

I have observed this phenomenom repeatedly with my Lincoln. When coasting down one particular long hill in town, I generally see 125+ MPG by the time I hit the bottom. Last time I tried it I put it in neutral (engien went to idle so the strategy turned off) and only got about 75.

Side note:
If retrofitting a 5.0 (or probably any other OEM system) make sure to integrate the Vehicle Speed Sensor as the EEC uses info from that for saving fuel and also for a good idle when coasting to a stop. This is described in the Pantera link I posted earler.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

It's kinda like an upside down tuna can with some notches cut out from the bottom. I put both wheels in CAD, overlayed them, and aligned the #1 tooth. Based on drawing 16 angular lines from the center of the Mopar circle (aligned with rising/falling edges), I believe some simple work with a file can get the Dodge wheel pretty close to the Ford wheel -- at least close enough to make it worth a try.

---

ugh, that'd be hard to fab. I just called a pretty good machine/fabrication shop here. They can't take a flat piece and stamp it into a tuna can, but they think they could bend it into a circle and weld it to a top plate. Whether or not it would be balanced and true though...

---

Quote:

---

Side note:
If retrofitting a 5.0 (or probably any other OEM system) make sure to integrate the Vehicle Speed Sensor as the EEC uses info from that for saving fuel and also for a good idle when coasting to a stop. This is described in the Pantera link I posted earler.

---

Quote:

---

What mopar distributor did you find that has a similar wheel & sensor?

---

As for the wheel and sensor:
I read 2-3 stories on 5.0-Mopar EFI and didn’t like those cut-n-splice dizzy conversions, so I disassembled 2 Ford and 3 Mopar dizzys. I spent several weeks of thinkin’, researchin’, junkyardin’ and CADdin’ on these trigger wheels trying to find a simpler solution. I looked for off-the-shelf adapter bushings to adapt the Ford wheel to the Mopar shaft but didn’t find anything that I thought would work well (and the sensor would be tough to mount, too). I’m not ready to put my findings out there yet, for the following 2 reasons.

#1: I don’t have a setup to compare/test the electrical output signals yet.

#2: I’m hoping you guys might come up with an even better idea . (For example, I never thought of using a flat disc!)

Chew on it for a while – what other autos might have shutter wheels & sensors, and how could we research those parts via the internet???

Quote:

---

don't really care about mpg's or numbers like that. Maybe if it was 1977 and I had only a 440 car to drive I might have cared. I guess if I wanted more MPG's out of a 440 I'd go w/ a 4 speed O/D.

---

Quote:

---

According to fordfuelinjection.com, the Ford VSS is 8 pulse/rev, and an assumed 8000 pulse/mile.

That sensor you linked to would be great in that it should plug right in to our speedo cables (but the thread pitch needs verified).

My jury is still out on whether the difference would be an issue. Using the Summit sensor would tell teh EEC that you're doing 10 mph when you're only doing 5, eventually you'll be stopped but EEC thinks you're still moving. I don't know how sensitive/critical it would be at walking speed (like creeping in a line of cars toward a 4-way stop). If it were reversed (sending a lower speed than actual) I'd be more confident it would be OK.

---

Or just change the scalar in the ECU to 10mph instead of 5mph for when to stop fuel shutoff (highlighted cell)
http://screencast.com/t/YzZlYzVkYzEt

There is also VSCFRQ - Vehicle Speed sensor frequency, set to 50Hz. Change that to 100Hz, wonder if it would correct it for the rest of the ECU.

Either way, when you're stopped, it will still show that you're stopped. Then when you hit 1mph, it reads 2mph, 5->10, 100->200mph , etc

It'd be nice using that sensor since we could keep our stock speedometers (I don't want to replace mine!), and get the signal we need. If nothing else, I can make a box that plugs in after the sensor to cut the number of pulses in half. I didn't look any farther at summit to see if they had one with a different number of pulses.

That accell distributor would probably work, but they sure are proud of them ($$)

AndrewH: It would definitely be interesting to see what they came up with for the distributor. If you have the time, I'd like to see some pics!

Quote:

---

Or just change the scalar in the ECU to 10mph instead of 5mph for when to stop fuel shutoff (highlighted cell)
http://screencast.com/t/YzZlYzVkYzEt

There is also VSCFRQ - Vehicle Speed sensor frequency, set to 50Hz. Change that to 100Hz, wonder if it would correct it for the rest of the ECU.

Either way, when you're stopped, it will still show that you're stopped. Then when you hit 1mph, it reads 2mph, 5->10, 100->200mph , etc

---

I agree, stopped is fine and moving is fine, it's those transitions and near-zero points that might cause drivability issues (which is one thing we're trying to get away from ). I don't ahve any EEC tuning tools, so I'm at a disadvantage there. My gameplan is to use the 2 MS-II units I have, and then give the EEC a shot on a differnt car. I may have to use some 'trickery' with relays and resistors on the sensors, to modify my fueling curves and other things.

Quote:

---

It'd be nice using that sensor since we could keep our stock speedometers (I don't want to replace mine!), and get the signal we need. If nothing else, I can make a box that plugs in after the sensor to cut the number of pulses in half. I didn't look any farther at summit to see if they had one with a different number of pulses.

---

I wanna keep my speedo too. Aint no aftermarket round speedo that will fit in a 68 Fury or a 65 300 and look right.

Quote:

---

That accell distributor would probably work, but they sure are proud of them ($$)

---

Yep, huge money, and at that point you could install a Megasquirt and use the factory dizzy. That's the crux to me on the 5.0 conversion - you've got to get it cheap enough, or already have the tuning tool, or else it becomes more cost-effective to go MS.

And 2 of those Accell dizzys have mechanical advance. Why would you use a dual-synch dizzy (which is intended for sequential EFI, right?) and then not have the ignition timing controlled by an ECU? Ignition timing control is tantamount to engine responsiveness and area-under-the-curve torque.

Quote:

---

Well, I was hoping to be able to hand you guys the secret all at once on a silver platter, but I hit a hurdle on my end, so I’ll start spilling some beans.

The Magnum distributor functions as a cam sensor, hence the 180° wheel shown in the other thread, the Magnums use a Crank Position Sensor on the flexplate instead. Why they used 2 sensors is beyond me, they could have used a trigger wheel in the dizzy or a missing tooth on the flexplate and eliminated 1 sensor, which would surely have been a huge cost savings!

Anyway, the distributor I have been looking at is from an 89-91 318 (or 90-92 360) TBI setup. Similar-looking sensor except the mounting tabs are different (they match the side screws of a points or electronic dizzy perfectly). And - this dizzy also uses an 8-tooth trigger wheel! The tooth spacing differs from the Ford wheel as I mentioned earlier, although I believe the ‘#1’ tooth can be filed narrower to emulate the Ford wheel. That’s job #2.

The Ford wheel is approx 2.35” OD, the Dodge wheel is approx 2.1” OD. The Dodge wheel diameter is not compatible with the Ford sensor, at least they don’t seem to want to package together in the Mopar dizzy because the Ford dizzy is larger OD and the guts are bigger. Anyone that has a Ford and a Mopar dizzy, please see if you come up with any ideas on how to merge them.

My plan was to install the TBI Hall and wheel in a B-RB dizzy, but this all hinges on whether the Dodge and Ford Halls are similar electrically (job #1). The hurdle I’ve hit is that the Ford takes a 12V input, the Dodge Magnum info I have shows it takes a 5V input and the wire colors differ from the TBI Hall I have. I want to be able to figure out how to test it, then put 12v into it and see if it blows the sensor. Hall sensors usually have a wide input voltage range, and it’s conceivable that Dodge used 5V as it was a standard sensor voltage and Ford used battery voltage instead. The sensor might not care what we feed it.

Anyone have a Dodge TBI schematic for the Hall sensor??? I need to know the wire colors so that I can hook it up to my test meter. If this sensor can handle 12 volts, it might be the solution. There would still be some mods required, but we’ll cover that in the future if this sensor will work (job #1).

---

or you could toss on a $250 carb and be done....lol

Quote:

---

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=accel%20dual%20pickup%20distributor%20mopar&dds=1

OK, it's expensive....but it looks convienient as heck.

---

Wow... that looks VERY interesting I was contemplating adding a crank wheel (DIYAutotune.com has universal 36-1 wheels you can get already machined, fyi) and grinding all but 1 terminal off of my reluctor in my distributor for a cam signal and realigning the pickup for proper cam signal timing. But this looks way easier Thanks for the post Zippy!

Quote:

---

The Ford wheel is approx 2.35” OD, the Dodge wheel is approx 2.1” OD. The Dodge wheel diameter is not compatible with the Ford sensor, at least they don’t seem to want to package together in the Mopar dizzy because the Ford dizzy is larger OD and the guts are bigger. Anyone that has a Ford and a Mopar dizzy, please see if you come up with any ideas on how to merge them.
The hurdle I’ve hit is that the Ford takes a 12V input, the Dodge Magnum info I have shows it takes a 5V input and the wire colors differ from the TBI Hall I have. I want to be able to figure out how to test it, then put 12v into it and see if it blows the sensor. Hall sensors usually have a wide input voltage range, and it’s conceivable that Dodge used 5V as it was a standard sensor voltage and Ford used battery voltage instead. The sensor might not care what we feed it.

Anyone have a Dodge TBI schematic for the Hall sensor??? I need to know the wire colors so that I can hook it up to my test meter. If this sensor can handle 12 volts, it might be the solution. There would still be some mods required, but we’ll cover that in the future if this sensor will work (job #1).

---

So it looks like the Ford wheel will fit inside the mopar distributor, and the main problem is finding a sensor that will fit, correct?

After looking at Wedgemans picture again, it sure looks more like an photo interrupter than a hall sensor. Is the white thing on the inside magnetic? Any wires going to it? I don't suppose there are any part numbers on the actual sensor on the mopar sensor?

I was just looking at Hall Sensors at Digikey for a different project, and yes, most of them have a very wide input voltage range. Or if it is optical, we just need another resistor in series to limit the voltage and it should work just fine at 12v.

If there's room, it may be easiest to put the ford wheel in the mopar distributor, then I can make a Hall Effect/Optical sensor that mounts to the mopar plate, like this one., Or we get a flat wheel cut out and mount our own sensor in the distributor

Anyone have an extra magnum distributor they want to sell me cheap? I have a Ford one I can pull and compare, but I don't think the junkyard here even has any magnums

Quote:

---

So it looks like the Ford wheel will fit inside the mopar distributor, and the main problem is finding a sensor that will fit, correct?

---

Quote:

---

After looking at Wedgemans picture again, it sure looks more like an photo interrupter than a hall sensor. Is the white thing on the inside magnetic? Any wires going to it? I don't suppose there are any part numbers on the actual sensor on the mopar sensor?

---

Quote:

---

I was just looking at Hall Sensors at Digikey for a different project, and yes, most of them have a very wide input voltage range. Or if it is optical, we just need another resistor in series to limit the voltage and it should work just fine at 12v.

---

Quote:

---

If there's room, it may be easiest to put the ford wheel in the mopar distributor, then I can make a Hall Effect/Optical sensor that mounts to the mopar plate, like this one., Or we get a flat wheel cut out and mount our own sensor in the distributor

---

Quote:

---

Anyone have an extra magnum distributor they want to sell me cheap? I have a Ford one I can pull and compare, but I don't think the junkyard here even has any magnums

---

Quote:

---

You are correct, there is no ‘need’ for most people, it’s a ‘want’ -- just like other things. Drum brakes and points ignitions and single-field alternators are quite functional, yet people install discs and halogen headlights and MSD boxes and other stuff. Because we want to.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You are correct, there is no ‘need’ for most people, it’s a ‘want’ -- just like other things. Drum brakes and points ignitions and single-field alternators are quite functional, yet people install discs and halogen headlights and MSD boxes and other stuff. Because we want to.

---

After working on & racing FWD turbo mopars for over 10 years going back to my RWD roots was a painful experiance!

A well tuned carb is a wonderful thing but can't hold a candle to a well tuned EFI system.

My 67 Dart will have multi-port EFI with a Megasquirt controller.

---

Quote:

---

hahahahahahahah ok. EFI was developed for emissions. Don't fool yourself. Injection is nice to have but it in no way is any better for performance applications that a carb. If it was sooo great every swingin' Richard would have it on his "saturday night special".

---

Quote:

---

...EFI was developed for emissions...

---

Fuel Injection came out in the '50's, long before anyone cared about emissions. You clearly don't know what the heck you're talking about. Computerized fuel control is so much better than a carb that caburetors are obsolete.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

hahahahahahahah ok. EFI was developed for emissions. Don't fool yourself. Injection is nice to have but it in no way is any better for performance applications that a carb. If it was sooo great every swingin' Richard would have it on his "saturday night special".

---

What-ever, I'm not going to get in a flamefest with some fool on a board.

A properly setup EFI system will beat the hell out of carb any day of the week. Been there and done it for the last 10+ years.

Cost and complexity keeps it out of reach of most people.

Keep your stone age tech if that is what pleases you, I assume you run drum brakes and points too.

---

Quote:

---

That is interesting. Why does it need the one off tooth?

---

The one-off tooth tells the ECU where #1 cylinder is.


If we get the dizzy figured out, there are still some hurdles to jump - like the PWM IAC.

Quote:

---

Is that a hall effect sensor out of a 2.2 turbo distributor?

---

Quote:

---

so I think you forgot a couple of things.
What shaft did you use?

---

Quote:

---

Where did you get the collar?

---

Quote:

---

Did you have to open up the inside of the ford wheel? or let it go?

---

Quote:

---

Why did you decide not to use the mopar wheel chopped up a little?

---

Quote:

---

Do the sensors provide the same output?

---

Quote:

---

As for pining the collar, it looks like there is a gap to tighten it to the shaft? But yes I think a pin would be better.

---

Quote:

---

The housing for my mag does not have any slots or holes. only a notch for the sensor wiring to come out.

---

Quote:

---

As for lining up number 1 cylinder, I think it actually matters more the relation to the rotor to that number 1 slot.
So where it point to in the ford vs where it points to in the mopar.
Since it would be adjustible based on that relationship not where 1 is.

---

Quote:

---

Eureka?

---

Awesome! I think you got it! I don't see anything else that shouldn't be unsurmountable

(I did have some other questions, but then you replied and answered them)

Quote:

---

So, it looks like you got the distributor figured out

Up above you mentioned something about the IAC valve? I was thinking that'd be a pretty straightforward part of the swap

Since it mounts directly to the throttle body, either get an elbow adapter like shown in the very first link, or come up with another way to mount it to the intake.

---

Whether the IAC is a PITA depends more on what intake manifold and/or throttle body you plan to use. The Ford IAC is PWM (pulse-width modulated) while most GM, Dodge and universal 4-barrel-style use stepper motors. I believe somebody makes one of the 4V types with a PWM (Hitachi?) IAC that might be PWM, so check around. That's a high $$ TB, though.

So if you’re planning on putting the 5.0 stuff with a 5.2/5.9 throttle body (some guys in the poll said they’d be using the beerbarrel) or a 4-barrel-style TB, the Ford IAC won’t work without some mods to mount it remotely and ensure the original passage doesn’t leak air (that can be the harder part).

If you’re using a ‘standard’ converted intake manifold, then an Edelbrock elbow with a 5.0 TB on it is quite simple. For those in the lower-HP (or budget) domain, I recommend you check out the TB and elbow from a 4.6 Ford. Those TBs are 65 mm and good for around 245 hp (on paper). The 5.0 HO had a 60mm TB, and those engines can be tweaked above their 225hp rating before the TB becomes the restriction, so I’d bet the 65mm can go to 275hp or so. . The elbow requires an adapter plate to match the manifold but it would be a fairly simple one to make on a drillpress. Another option: look for a 5.0 Explorer, they have an intake similar to the Mustang but it has a 90° elbow that might be usable (and the TB is a 65mm unit, albeit different from the 4.6).

If you plan to mount the 5.0 TB right on top of a standard intake, the IAC will probably interfere with your aircleaner, as the IAC now points straight upward about 3". You could make a small thick adapter plate with cross-drilled passages to make it level, though. You'd also need some way to fasten the aircleaner. I have done such a configuration, and it fits neatly under a factory aircleaner.

Remote-mounting the IAC:
To remote-mount the Ford IAC, you’ll make a plate to cap-off the IAC ports, then drill//tap that plate for 2 barbed fittings that align with the ports. Run 2 hoses, one to the inside of the air filter region and the other to below the throttle blades. You might be tempted to T it into the power brake fitting, but don’t do that on a dual-plane manifold if that location is only in 1 plane.

Do something similar to the TB to block off the original IAC path. This is a little tougher as the passages are usually cast into teh TB and will vary based on what TB you use.

Get a roll of gasket paper from the auto parts store and get crackin’.

Quote:

---

Either way, the 'hard' part will be running the new throttle cable, and for us with automatics, the Throttle Pressure Cable (or kickdown cable )

Or is there something else I'm missing?

---

Nah, we're still planning hardware, I'm sure there will be more hurdles after that!

throttle and kickdown cables:
Ford used a kickdown-type cable on their AOD transmissions, so a 5.0 TB from an OBD1 car should have provisions on it for 2 cables. 5.0 Explorers and 4.6 vehicles all had electronic transmissions, so no 2nd cable -- those TBs could still be made to work, perhaps?

Also, if you find a Lincoln Mark 7 with 5.0 HO, it will have the TB on the passenger side and the cable might be long enough to use, but you’ll have to figure out how to hook it to your pedal.

For cables, check out your nearest Dodge van and/or pickup. Some of them are pretty long, and the firewall-mounted footpedals probably fit in late-60s-up Mopars with little effort. The KD cables should be easy to use also. I also discovered that a ‘low-head’ allenhead screw (can’t remember the size, perhaps #6?) was a near-perfect item to emulate the cable pins used on a Maggie TB. The cables have a special square locking clip that goes into a bracket on the TB, either get that bracket to reuse or make the square hole with a drill bit and a sharp needle file (I’ve done it both ways).
http://www.mcmaster.com/#socket-cap-screws/=6ufx2q

For reusing any OEM cable you’ll most likely have to modify something at one end or the other, so a universal cable or a Lokar might end up better on the time/money scale – each person has to decide for themselves.

Quote:

---

If you plan to mount the 5.0 TB right on top of a standard intake, the IAC will probably interfere with your aircleaner, as the IAC now points straight upward about 3". You could make a small thick adapter plate with cross-drilled passages to make it level, though. You'd also need some way to fasten the aircleaner. I have done such a configuration, and it fits neatly under a factory aircleaner.

---

I was contemplating doing something similar to this. Also need to put the MAF in there somewhere; but you said you were doing SD, so you don't need it. That would definitely make a pseudo-stealth install easier.

I have something in mind that would stick the TB and MAF under the aircleaner, but I need to get everything and mock it up to see if it'll actually work, and not be too tall. The thin style MAFs are $$$

For the KD cable, it really shouldn't be too hard to find one long enough and finangle a way make it work. Heck, even a long manual choke cable with custom ends should be feasible to get to work.

All this planning, and I still don't have an engine to put it on yet

Quote:

---

Anybody got any updates? Hoozie - did you find an engine yet?

---

No Haven't even had time to pull my harness yet. Now that the disc brakes are all but done, I can move forward on it.

Quote:

---

The plastic bushing that holds the Mag TBI wheel to the shaft can have its 4 plastic plugs drilled out removing the metal wheel from it. The bushing can then go upside down on the shaft, and the Ford key (with a larger hole) can fit on top and bolt to it. Things I still need figure out include the final installed height of the plastic bushing, and if I can use the roll pin hole where it is, or if it needs to go up or down.

---

Quote:

---

Fury Fan, do the 8 tooth wheels you have, have the same angle between all the teeth (except for #1 on the Ford of course)? It would be awesome if we could use otherwise 'off the shelf' parts, rather than needing to hack on another sensor if we need to install a new one. Make an adapter to go from the remote mount Ford TFI to the Dodge hall sensor. Everything just 'plugs in'

---

Quote:

---

The signal output from the Hall sensor is called a Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) signal. There is one shutter that is skinny and this is how the EEC knows the #1 piston TDC position. This is also how the EEC knows where each cylinder is in the firing order due to monitoring the time rate between PIP signals (changing rpms) and the internal firing order data, which enables it to control sequentially the firing of the injectors.
The EEC then sends a signal (SPOUT) back to the TFI module requesting to fire the coil. The EEC senses the coil ground for feedback that the coil has then actually fired.
The coil fires on the falling edge of the SPOUT signal. The TFI also provides an internal SPOUT signal (based on the PIP signal) for limp home mode operation if the EEC has stopped sending the SPOUT. If the SPOUT plug is not inserted, spark timing remains at base timing during engine operation.

---

So here’s some theoretical diahrea:
The narrower Mopar teeth will cause the spark to occur X degrees advanced due to the advanced falling edge (which would typically be compensated for with distributor orientation). But this could also theoretically affect fueling, as the EEC could think the wheel was moving faster than actual (it sees falling edges happening quicker than expected) and therefore think engine RPM was higher, and begin firing the injectors differently based on fueling and timing tables. (The angular velocity is the same between the wheels at a fixed RPM but the tooth-tip speed is different, and EEC has some awareness/expectations of that toothtip speed). But EEC would then have the feedback from coil firing and have info on the true RPM. But it could conceivably think the spark was ill-timed vs the teeth. What will it do if coil firing suggests 3000rpm but toothtip suggests 3200 (arbitrary numbers)? If fueling is OK and near stoich (which means no misfires) but toothtip speed vs coil suggests consistently incorrect timing, what would it do??? Did the Ford engineers anticipate this scenario and write a specific diagnostic/limp response for it???

As there is so much unknown regarding how well a ‘foreign’ engine will run with EEC’s tables and maps, I suggest we start out simple and not worry about problems until there are problems.

• Get a Mopar TBI dizzy, file a tooth narrower to reasonably emulate the Ford wheel, then either re-pin the wheel to point to Mopar #1 or re-lace the plug wires as needed (remember Ford’s #1 is different than Mopar #1, and re-lacing the dizzy wires might be easier).
  
• Install the rest of the system hardware – remote TFI, harness, fuel system, sensors, etc.
  
• see if it will start and idle.

If not, then diagnosis is in order, and using a Ford wheel in the dizzy might be required.

Whatever you guys do for modifying a dizzy and wheel, just remember to maintain the relationship between #1 piston at TDC, #1 wire going to #1 sparkplug, rotor pointing at #1 on dizzy cap, and Hall sensor aligns with falling edge on narrow tooth of the trigger wheel.

Here’s a good read:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/EECIVInnerWorkings/

Quote:

---

I hadn't considered the rotation of the wheel, but I'll be doing a bigblock and it's the same rotation as the 5.0. Lucky for me.

Overall, I think the EEC-IV's reaction to what we're doing will follow this process -- -- all in milliseconds, too. Followed by some Dear-diary typing into some long-term adaptive tables.

I agree that shaving 1 tooth on the Mopar wheel will be an easy route, I mentioned earlier that it the TFI triggers on a falling edge, so make sure to pivot on that feature when orienting your wheel.

---

Big block? Cheater It will match up as long as you orient the teeth down. I'm tentatively hoping to orient the teeth up, so I can use the dodge hall sensor, which doesn't require pulling the wheel off to replace the hall sensor.

From the autocad drawing you sent me, it looks like the teeth on the dodge wheel are on average 2-4* narrower than the Ford wheel. Like I mentioned above, if going backwards is close enough to work, I'd bet being 4* narrower than stock won't hurt anything. The other option I came up with was some way to make the necessary teeth that much wider

I heard back from the online machinist about making a wheel of the right diameter, so I can add the teeth in myself. Including the material, is $85 for one, $160 for three, or $215 for five. It would be similar to the pictures of Andrewh's trigger wheel.

Now I need to find a dodge 8 tooth wheel or two to experiment with