Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: Race&Resto]
#595569
02/09/10 02:27 AM
02/09/10 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609 Sometimes Northern California,...
LO23M8B
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 609
Sometimes Northern California,...
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Quote:
So who's to say that someone who worked for Chrysler on the assembly at the time bought this or built this car the way the other 4 Hemi mule cars that were built? It's in the same time frame that those were built?
That is my point exactly. We can't say anything other than what is subjection at this point. Until something shows up differently, i.e. first owner and documentation, then it ((the car) is just a big question mark.????? I have no problem with it either way, but show me something other than speculation and I will buy into it. That car is not my concern at the moment. The thread is about 64' Hemi Hardtops and how they got here and why. Not and individual car and it's authentication. Right now, I would like to hear about all of them, not one single ambiguious car. There are enough people around that can properly decode that car. Give Greg Lane a call. PM me and I will give you that number. Other than that, why were ALL of those cars built and what was their purpose? Again, was it to apease NASCAR for the 1965 Season? Ford was complaining loudly about the Hemi, could it have been to say that the hemi cars, were production cars for Nascar purposes, knowing how late they were assembled. I mean look at how close to the 65 year that they were made. Then when Nascar outlawed the Hemi for the 65' season, that's when Chrysler killed the program and went drag racing with the 65' A-990 cars. Just thoughts...
64 S/S Hemi Plymouth, 1963 4-Door (13.5-1) Max Wedge Savoy, 69-440 Dart 10.20 et 132 mph on the footbrake, 2012 Dodge Ram 2500 turbo diesel, 69-440-6 Roadrunner, 05 Hemi Magnum, 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 P/u, 2005 Viper, 98' Town & Country.
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: Race&Resto]
#595571
02/09/10 02:35 AM
02/09/10 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.
mike s
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top fuel
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Mi,U.S.A.
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My post on page 5 spoke about the Ramchargers car as reported by Ray Brock of HRM.The picture clearly shows NO Hemi mods to that car and shows that the 1st of the 2% cars was a Maxi car.Other than the Hemi engine (w/carters in the pic),the ign box wiring and the wheelbase change they were not converted.That is my point.It is accepted as the first Hemi car by most people.
I just received my DD book today.I have just quickly scanned it.If I read it correctly it shows no lightweight 2dr HT Belvedere's and no 4spd's.
Sorry that is incorrect.
On the subject of dealers and exec's having pull it is 100% true esp in those days.Anything was possible after the parts were available.The stories are almost unbelievable but many times have been found to be true.Do I believe that the records are even correct? Yes but not 100%. I would like to check my old cars against the records and see if they completely jive with what I know about them.
Last edited by mike s; 02/09/10 12:41 PM.
Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: srt]
#595572
02/09/10 02:35 AM
02/09/10 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609 Sometimes Northern California,...
LO23M8B
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mopar
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No question about that, until something shows up that is concrete, we only have a theory. And right now, at least for me, I have bigger questions. That car could possibly or not hold an answer. Time will tell.
64 S/S Hemi Plymouth, 1963 4-Door (13.5-1) Max Wedge Savoy, 69-440 Dart 10.20 et 132 mph on the footbrake, 2012 Dodge Ram 2500 turbo diesel, 69-440-6 Roadrunner, 05 Hemi Magnum, 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 P/u, 2005 Viper, 98' Town & Country.
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: srt]
#595575
02/09/10 03:18 AM
02/09/10 03:18 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609 Sometimes Northern California,...
LO23M8B
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609
Sometimes Northern California,...
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What I can see on the Plymouth side (since I don't have any dodge stuff) is that the so# are scattered all over as well as production dates and dealership codes. WHich makes me think that because of the even numbers, Chrysler could have sent one of the cars to assorted dealers around the US and it would not hurt anyone. And then Chrysler has and can say that the Hemi is a production car for NASCAR. No dealer as I see it got 2 cars. Why is that? You would think that someone would go hey, we got a hot car here and order more than one. That goes back to my theory that they were just made to apease NASCAR and a production count so that the Hemis could run in the races. Otherwise if Chrysler didn't produce the 180 cars (total dodge and Plymouth) then maybe they couldn't run in NASCAR.
64 S/S Hemi Plymouth, 1963 4-Door (13.5-1) Max Wedge Savoy, 69-440 Dart 10.20 et 132 mph on the footbrake, 2012 Dodge Ram 2500 turbo diesel, 69-440-6 Roadrunner, 05 Hemi Magnum, 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 P/u, 2005 Viper, 98' Town & Country.
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: LO23M8B]
#595576
02/09/10 03:54 AM
02/09/10 03:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.
mike s
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top fuel
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Mi,U.S.A.
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Let's not forget the NHRA.If you recall they made Ford build 50(or less lol)T-bolts just a year earlier.That might have been in play here.
Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: mike s]
#595577
02/09/10 03:59 AM
02/09/10 03:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,762 Jefferson State
srt
ESYC
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ESYC
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Jefferson State
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That is my thinking. Did they actually build them? Was it a paper trail smoke screen? To me it seems likely the earliest ones (feb to may) were converted mw and then some of the production run cars were built and went to dealers or racers. I base this on the re-tooling required late in the production year, the desire for the hemi to be raced (and nothing more than my convoluted thoughts). Some pics on this Link, all known cars?
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: mike s]
#595578
02/09/10 05:00 AM
02/09/10 05:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 881 currently on moparts.
Race&Resto
super stock
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super stock
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Quote:
Let's not forget the NHRA.If you recall they made Ford build 50(or less lol)T-bolts just a year earlier.That might have been in play here.
I think there were a total of 111 Thunder-bolts built in 1964, they were built in two batches.
Quote:
That is my thinking. Did they actually build them? Was it a paper trail smoke screen?
Yeah I'm starting to think all these production number's for those 70 units claimed to be for 64 Hemi hardtop built are fudged figures! So where the hell are they all then, you would think more than just a couple of them survived today, and more people would have seen them over the years? (unless there is actual proof of their VIN#'s, build & shipping dates). They probably just built a handful of units, then stopped production and started gearing up for the 65 model run.
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: SSDA5006]
#595580
02/09/10 08:18 AM
02/09/10 08:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,467 Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
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top fuel
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Answering the call of the wild
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Quote:
Here's a 64 hemi hardtop at the WPC museum. Just took this photo last weekend. What's the story on this one? Listed as an A-864 package on loan from the Ronzello family. I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
From my research in the 80's about Chrysler Super Stock cars I believe this car to be the real deal.
I was the feature editor for Classic Chrysler Quarterly, I did a lot of research and kept my files...
Summer 1988 issue. "When Chrysler began to build hemi powered cars in 1964 for Grand National Racing a "Track Package" was developed to give a racer a complete car. On March 2,1964 a price bulletin was issued covering the new super commando hemi head engine designed for drag racing competition.. in addition the bulletin stated the single 4 barrel track option version for this engine was available by ordering the necessary conversion package from Chrysler p/n2532496. this was only available on 4speed steel body Belvedere hardtop. Chrysler did not start producing "track cars" until May-June of 1964."
Fall 1987 CCQ "There is no list of race or street hemis production numbers that can be believed as 100% correct. Chrysler kept a fairly good record of models shipped to customers but poor record keeping of models produced as preproduction prototypes, engineering cars, exported cars and cars produced in Canada. Production for 1964 & 65 Super Stock cars is believed to be 271 engines for 1964 and 360 engine for 1965. the is good indications that 50 Dodge Coronets and 15 Plymouth Belvederes were equipped with the 426 race hemi in 1964."
From 1987 I have a 5 page hand written letter from Ralph Ronzello regarding the car...
In the letter according to his conversations with Maxwell "Track cars from Chrysler were all built and sold with the dual carb setup and the track option was sent along with the car to be installed by the racer."
More notes Nascar X-9 race car, 2 air cleaners shipped with car for short & long tracks. Valve covers are made form 3 pieces of welded aluminum.
According to an Chrysler internal document 660342 "the production of several hundred engines was competed by the end of 1964 model year."
Whats the deal with "64post" deleting his posts???
There is more, I don't have time right now to scan the documents, but if you guys play nice about this I will take the time.
Some of you are not being nice....
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#595581
02/09/10 12:40 PM
02/09/10 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609 Sometimes Northern California,...
LO23M8B
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 609
Sometimes Northern California,...
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Anything you have on these cars would be appreciated. I will be "play nice" I promise.........
64 S/S Hemi Plymouth, 1963 4-Door (13.5-1) Max Wedge Savoy, 69-440 Dart 10.20 et 132 mph on the footbrake, 2012 Dodge Ram 2500 turbo diesel, 69-440-6 Roadrunner, 05 Hemi Magnum, 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 P/u, 2005 Viper, 98' Town & Country.
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Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops
[Re: LO23M8B]
#595582
02/09/10 01:10 PM
02/09/10 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,668 Mi,U.S.A.
mike s
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top fuel
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Mi,U.S.A.
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Not to start anything but it is well known that Ford played with the numbers on the T-bolts. Double counting the same cars in some cases.
My original post was not to verify the car here that everyone is questioning it was to state the facts as I knew them.The 2 dr Ht Belv I spoke of was returned from a Nascar team and sold as new at a Chrysler dealer (even with slight mods).It was late in the year after the Nascar ban.If 1 car was returned I am sure there were more.
That would at least bring in to play the idea that during the year cars that were wrecked were replaced.No Nascar teams ran sedans only hardtops. Cars built in June would be ready for the second half of the Nascar season.Perhaps Nascar wanted some HT cars built.
One more point.At that time the Nichols team controlled the distribution of Nascar parts and likely cars.That would be the reason cars were not shipped to the south in larger numbers.
When the Ronzello car surfaced I was sure it was the same car I spoke of but it is not.A similar story and a similar looking car but not the same car.
Leave the gun.......take the Cannoli's....Mike
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