I have the remains of a 68 Sport Satellite convert 383/330 auto.Weird car...10" drums,no sway bar,3.23 open triple green.It has no HP stamped on block and standard valve spring with no dampner.

Ya strange about the W23....the tentative billing from Sept mentions Cast Road Wheels only

Have a look guys, I may have made enemies talking about it.

You'll notice first the white convertible top was replaced by former owner in 1984...with black

Next, you can't miss the after market passenger RH side plasti-chrome mirror and his friend on LH side too!! This car came w/ standard non-remote chrome mirror. Must have fallen off!!!! Lol!

You can't make out - but under the Barracuda script on both fenders, factory correct '383 four barrel' emblems reside directly underneath.

Also, grille was painted black by a former owner, looks cool, but not correct.

What can I say guys...she's my baby, and I'll defend her against all shi**ers! Lol! (from the movie Christine) None here that I've seen.

For an East coast car, she's like 95% rust free, best condition E body I ever saw to buy. I bought a 1970 Conv Challenger from my neighbor 5 houses down a year after buying this one. It sat in his yard since I was a kid, since 1978. Oh was she a rotten, green 318 Chally vert. Sold her and my first car, a non-Mopar purple '71 318 Gran Coupe at Carlisle one year mid 90's. I should have saved her in '87 when I got my license. Waited too long, din't know she was special till I bought the Barracuda. Then I was like...hey, what about the conv green machine w/ four flat tires and a snake living in the trunk and an inch of water in floor pans from top ripped open.

When I was a kid my next door neighbor had a 1970 GTX. It was rotten, beat up, and in primer, even in 1978. His mother asked if I wanted to buy the 1970 440HP that was left in the garage since '78 when it was towed away for junk for $100 and jumped on it. Never could figure why an 8 year old car was in such bad shape.

My first love in 1986 - a guy down the street had a blue '68 Road Runner original owner, says he should have bought one w/ a hemi, yeah pop, ya think! Wanted more than a 16 year old could afford working at Hardies. Every year he wanted more.

The baddest ride in this area of NoVa was a plum crazy 1970 Road Runner hemi w/ 4 spd pistol - it's said to have sold for $5000 right after I bought the Barracuda for $4250. I almost cried. Its the closest I've ever come to owning greatness guys...the BH27NOB is all I got now.

round two ... ding-ding

1970 -
1 - The 383-2bbl and Carter 383-4bbl engines share the same cam & valve springs.
2 - The Holley 383-4bbl & the 440HP 4bbl engines share the same cam, valve springs w/damper, & windage tray.

as I see it -
The orange 383 engines were for the "muscle-cars" in Plymouth "pony car" speak - the "'Cudas", for plenty of show -n- go!
----- ( you won't find any blue-383s as original equiptment in one! )

The blue 383 engines were for the "personal luxury cars" in Plymouth "pony car" speak - the "Gran Coupe", plenty of torque for the added weight of A/C and other options. 2bbl or 4bbl? How do you like to roll? The b'cast above (thanks Nigel) shows a BP with a 4-spd w/HOLLEY & orange "HP" engine.
----- ( who has a b'cast for a BP with N/auto, A/C & 3.55s? any HOLLEYs on there? )
----- ( who has a b'cast for a BP with N/auto & 3.91s? I bet we have HOLLEYs on there! )

That leaves the Barracuda with a 383 - any way you want it.
----- ( who has a b'cast for a BH with N/auto, A/C & 3.55s? any HOLLEYs on there? )
----- ( who has a b'cast for a BH with N/auto & 3.91s? I bet we have HOLLEYs on there! )

There was at least one other B5/B5/V3W BH27N0B that came out of FL a few years ago. I saw pictures of it on a rotisserie and it appeared to be an original 4-speed car but no fender tag or bcs or original engine. No A/C either (funny, it did also have a leather interior). It was trashed pretty good in FL then it went to OH to a new owner who restored it to a purple/white combo with a 383 6bbl. I may have lost the vin as I was not keeping good records then but I have an ad I wrote that has the info so I'll check. It now has a hemi and I would not be surprised if it resurfaces with fake docs.

The 70 383 4bbls are the same with the following exceptions:
330 Carter AVS 4734 & 4736 Manual trans
4732 Auto
335 Holley 4160 4217, 4367 Manual
4218, 4369 Auto
330 Cam same as 290 Cam both valvesprings w/o damper
335 Cam same as 375/440 and valve spring w/ damper
330 had no windage tray where 335 did.

The 5hp difference had nothing to do wth the carb. The switch to Holley was I beleive partly a racing decision. The mid classes in stock and super stock, between where a 440 would fit and a 340 would fit were still GM's domain. By putting the piston below deck, as opossed to the 68/69 above deck, you could actually fit a cam worth a darn and the Holley carb is bigger and more tunable.

Quote:

---

The windage tray was welded to the oil pan...yes?

---

The windage tray was an add on piece btween the oil pan a nd block just like the ones they still sell. Also some was said about 440 heads bolted on the 383. There were no different 906 heads. They were all the same, 383 2bbl. all the way to the 440 Six Pack.

All 1970 383's get the 402 stamp # oil pan when in E bodys.L code 2 bbl and 330 horse N codes do not get the windage tray that goes between the pan and block.
In 1970 T code 440's have different horse power ratings as well.The most common one is the 440/350 ...single exhaust,single snorkel ,stnd cam versions.Sport Fury GT's, Wagons and Fleet cars get the other version....dual exhaust,dual snorkel,stnd camshaft,stnd valve springs which was still advertized in the 1970 factory Fury literature as a 440/350...seen it advertized in Chrysler literature as a 440/360 or 440/365...have to look it up.When I get some time tonight I see if I have some broadcasts with other N code variations an post them.

Wow, 3 pages of this.

Does everyone (including Nick) agree that the "N" VIN code was used for both the 330 hp and 335 hp motors or not? and that the car in question (Barracuda, with A/C, blue engine, carter carb with no HP stamp) was originally equipped with the 330 hp motor?

Dave

I have a BP23N code with 4spd a/c and a holley and it came with the 335hp orange engine, it's been in the family since 1975 so I know it has not been tampered with.

Thank you Masters...
Many here said to drop this subject many times and to just enjoy my car. I do enjoy restoring/finding Moparts, occasionally researching is like a treat too and sure beats knitting.

I claimed to only ever see one other BH27N conv. in my years, and that it was on the internet, well, I remembered after maybe seeing he’s a member here - I think, I did remember it from the uscartool web site uscartool.com as being Gil’s drop top fish from seeing two years ago or so. I can’t make out the B-sheet he has posted there, but it looks like a 086 engine code is present? And a 37? carb code. Any help here would be appreciated by any of the uscartool guys that know Gil and ask him if he’d kindly post clear pics of his B-sheet that are readable for future documentation of these cars by our Masters here please.

My opinions are as good as anyone’s here, and it is in that spirit and in that name that I dare to go forward with this. Missing in this is when my friend Tony asked me, “Where is the M code engine?” Where indeed, Tony…where indeed. I always liked the way Tony thinks. Where is the M.

IMO, had Chrysler designated an L to the 383 2bbl (which it did) and an M to the 383/330hp and an N to the 383/335hp…well we wouldn’t be having this discussion now & could all quickly agree. As in the (E85)T (E86)U (E87)V given to 440’s VIN spot. Jokingly, I told Tony that the M was reserved for the cop motors we were also discussing when researching the replacement parts for a ’70 383HP. Not seeing any Hi Po cop parts for the 383 or 440HP engines listed anywhere (valve rotators, girdles, extended oil fillers, etc.?) This is off topic. Was it so confusing to mistake an M for an N that Chrysler chose to not even use the letter M in their VIN lettering system – as in mistaking a P for an R, etc. Or is their lettering system already so simple that they assumed nobody should be clueless. “Where’s the M?” he says. LMFAO.

If I was working at parts counter in mid-June 1970, and I needed to know if the motor was an HP or not, and my May ’70 warranty customer came in for a cam for his 383HP automatic and no a/c - I wouldn’t expect to ask them the same question our good man Dan first asked of me which was what is the line 4 code of the engine and carb code. I simply could have asked him if there was an M or an N in the VIN (had Chrysler assigned the M.) and gotten him the 440HP cam. Same goes for my ’70 440 six bbl customer. I ask him if there is a V in the VIN and get him the three bolt cam instead of the 440HP single bolt. I could have sat there and gotten fatter. If I actually get off my rear, then an HP stamped next to or near model year & engine size on the top pad would be the quickest visual verification for a mechanic. Let’s revisit this one later. Second is seeing a matching #’s Holley carb. Do I really want to unbolt his shaker hood in the parking lot to see it, its as big as a sewer cover. Third is factory orange paint.

How was same new customer to know there is a b-sheet (or two) tucked up under his passenger’s leather seat. (Leather seats were standard on BH/JH/BP27; as was M31 (V5X) black side belt moldings & tinted glass – options are fairly common & first two were credit/delete.) When was the last time you looked under your new seat in your new car? Lol! What are you expecting to find there if you were looking. No, I wouldn’t expect that same customer to discover his BCS until the mid 80’s came around. I freed my two from captivity in 1995. After 40 years, some of us still don’t know what a few of the codes on them mean (like the engine codes) and come sniffing around & asking the same darn questions answered easily on BCS decode forums.


My misinterpretation in 1989 of Chrysler’s VIN decode system had me blinded initially to the facts until now, year 2008. I prefer to deal in the truth, and in seeking the truth I am finding it here with your help. My 2 close friends, when I posed the same questions, they too thought as I did earlier on, that N only stood for HP and L was for 2 and 4bbl. That is, until the bigger picture evolved as I informed them of the E63 sales codes and the 086 and the 087 B–sheet codes on line 4 and everything else posted then discussed here on the forum last week. Quickly changing their minds - as I have.

With all due respect to my Master DPelletier, this thread was never solely about ebodyseast and his 1970 Barracuda. Thank you for presenting us a forum for such discussions. My car was never to be the sole or even main topic of discussion.

All E61 and E63 E Body owners will have benefited from my bringing this up in 3 pages of awesome stuff. How many of our members have ever seen a 383 ‘Cuda automatic with a/c that was painted blue or had a Carter? Probably none. Are there any 383 ‘Cuda’s or R/T’s that wear a Carter carb as original? My answer is probably no again. All ‘Cuda’s may have a 087 or different BCS engine code, and never an 086 or the like (084/085, etc. ). Any owner of a BS23NOB that has auto with a/c with a BCS can tell us what their engine code is. Let’s hear from you. Is it 086 or is it 087? All should be 087 and a Holley Carb code. Yes? Please include your BCS carb code too. All that is needed is two cars here to confirm its true.

One member in particular, autoxcuda, had asked that I stay on in the forum to help educate him and every other member at all interested in this thread. I educated my self too along the way. Thank you for making me feel welcome autoxcuda. There were a few members here that were under the same wrong impressions I was at the time, the ones telling me automatics are blue and manuals orange. We’ll beat it to death that most all the 3 & 4 speeds shold be orange, but don’t tell me all automatics are blue before the owners may have a chance to come forward. While others here like Tav and dgt71 were clueless and eating pop corn while waiting for answers made of pure gold Luv ya guys…stay glued, remember…lots of butter.

Some answers had contradicted even the expert testimony at one time or another, leaving us all to decide for our selves what the truth is. Member Diego (not Ted)’s explaining that a ‘Cuda or R/T with auto and a/c would have been 330hp, but failing to include what color he thought it would also be and what carb would be atop. Remember Diego (not Ted) that I have found in FSM to be a Holley carb listed in the parts catalog for every ‘Cuda & R/T app. including the auto and a/c cars. Now think of one original owner R/T whose 383 auto w/ a/c was painted blue and had a Carter like my BH combo, you probably haven’t ever seen one because they may all have originally been a orange/Holley 335hp combo. You may have a hard time convincing ‘Cuda and R/T owners of this. No disrespect Diego (not Ted) & thank you for your valuable time and input.

Being that 4bbl 383’s were sharing the same E63 sales code, it also stands to reason they also shared the same N in the VIN. That I did finally concede to - even when the 440 would go on to designate its 440HP counterpart and even its six-pack with totally different VIN letters. And especially because there were so many external (intake, carb, etc.) and internal (pistons, cast v forged crank, etc.) differences between a 2bbl and 4bbl 383. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

But Hemi71 saw it differently when posing the argument that E63 did not even include a non-performance (330hp) 383 engine after his researching this topic. Where is the E62 Tony? LMWFAO! Much along the same lines as my posing the initial argument that N only stood for 383 HP engines, his being the same argument as mine was…only different. No one has touched that one yet either. If we ignore him, maybe he’ll go away!! Just kidding Hemi71, don’t go anywhere - we luv & respect you and need your valuable input and research.

This E63 sales code is for the salesperson at a dealership to order his customer a 4bbl 383…correct? The 086 and 087 engine codes on line 4 of B-sheet were for the assembly line workers to also help get it right before leaving the factory. This stands to reason as true.

Hemi71 with his research and input also did open a few brand new questions for debate that as of yet have gone unanswered. He didn’t go away already did he?! I told him not too. Because he has concluded all 1970 383 4bbls are HP by virtue of their identical internal parts that year. He also stated as he sees it that there weren’t two versions of a 4bbl in the same model line - whether there is a HP stamp on the distributor pad next to engine size or no HP stamp there at all it would then stand to reason. RoadRunnerJD here in my home state of VA went as far as to say that none of the ‘69 or ‘70 engines were stamped with an HP or HP2. I’ve taken that to mean he has included the ’70 383 like I own for our discussion. While pacnorthcuda hasn’t told us yet if his BS23NOB has a HP stamp at distributor hole.) And lastly, Hemi71 also felt that the Holley carbs alone boosted the 5 horse power as well as being more tunable at the drag strip

I can hardly argue after checking through his research. Only I see it differently - in parts catalog it states a 383 4bbl has two cam options, and 2nd option is a 440HP cam. There is the proof for me that only orange HP engines w/a Holley had this cam…when ordered with A/C is still a mystery. I can easily see why he would conclude this even with his experience and his interpretation of the FSM that the engine’s all shared the same 4bbl cam specs, same HP valve springs. I checked and the springs in my non-HP 383 engine do have a valve damper just like a brand new Mopar street hemi spring that will also fit the 915/906 heads and matches the .484 lift Mopar cam. Who here over checked Hemi71’s cam spec research, etc. and can argue? Did anyone look into it? Re-read his conclusions. No one has yet checked into the .05 ‘raised ring’ reference in the FSM when ordering and specifying 383 4bbl cams that he’s brought up. I see it there, I’m clueless what it means unless it means stick in a HiPo motor! And I have also made this response to finally answer his question when he asked the forum early on what code you will find on a B-sheet for a non-HP 383 engine. The answer I give him and everyone else is ‘086’, as was the identical answer provided first by Dan to me.

Galen was 100% wrong in 1990 to advise Scott to paint a 383 w/ auto blue when an E Body also has the A/C option and a Holley code on B-sheet. GG then went on to contradict himself in the same statement by thinking and advising Scott that a non ‘Cuda with a 383 4bbl with a/c and an automatic would come with a Holley carb in the first place! As none have surfaced, only a few other blue a/c motor examples like mine.

No, we’ve all learned an auto with a/c is blue and requires a Carter to be correct. Scotts uncle’s Gran Coupe should have been orange or had a Carter carb and never both! Without the B-sheet, Scott had no clue either, like me...even with a B-sheet 15 years later. Just as he was selling his uncle’s conv in ‘93…I was buying mine shortly after in early ’94. So were I to ask Galen back in ’94 what he thought of mine after his seeing Scott’s uncle’s only a year earlier, who knows what he would have said. Eat your heart out GG. Hope you’ve learned since then! If not you’d better keep reading on.

What we’ve all learned by now is that ALL of the ‘Cuda and R/T Challenger’s should be HP 335hp engines. What we also learn is that most ALL non ‘Cuda & non-R/T 383 manuals (3&4 spd); and ost all 383 automatics without A/C were also HP 335hp. We know so far the only cars guaranteed to not get an HP engine are only cars to get 330hp in every situation were like mine, the auto and a/c blue engines.


It has occurred to me, that Chrysler made a point in 1970 to only install the Holley for the Hi Po 383. Refusing to equip the 383 auto and a/c base model cars like mine with one. There must have been a bottom line issue with this combo in the base models. A luxury v performance issue as Dan stated. Hard top automatic and a/c 383 ‘Cuda’s and R/T’s should be fairly common - along with the few convertibles built. The engine was there, just not for every Barracuda, Gran Coupe & Challenger V8 engine/trans/a/c - w/o a/c combo.

Keep those N code B-sheet combos comin’ as you kindly promised to Nigel. TY. Furyman is probably thinking “do I know him?”

As of yet I’m the only member to provide their engine codes to help clarify the 086 and 087 issue except Nigel’s engine code from the Gran Coupe 4 speed.

Anybody can repaint an engine from blue to orange when restoring them. I could tell an unsuspecting buyer that this is a fender tag car only. I can also easily fool someone and find a Holley carb for my A/C application on any ‘Cuda or R/T with A/C and shelf the Carter for some one expecting this combo.

What is needed is for our omnipotent and benevolent forces that be, our Masters & our Mods, to provide us as members here (smile) Chrysler’s decode document(s) for the line 4 383 engine codes in B-sheet from 1960’s to mid 1970’s. Mastershake340 would be kind to show us pics of his JH27NOB’s build sheet to verify Challengers were identical. Mastershake340, thanks for the nice comments about my car. Lets get a look see at that limited production E conv of yours some time!


The document that 1 Wild RT furnished us with ’69 & ‘70 hp ratings for 383, truthfully, it fails to mention & acknowledge a ’70 manual trans and a/c combo, if it does it only rates a 4 speed with a/c at 330hp (Dogpro’s family owned BP27NOB since 1975 already attested to this being untrue) - and also fails to mention an automatic and no a/c and 335hp. Three strikes you’re out. Truthfully, it is very hard to say it does not contradict itself in these ways and is thus only one small source of info when looking at the bigger picture here. Correct me when wrong please or correct and update that document of yours and repost it!

There is nothing stamped for us on the fender tags of a Hamtramck built car either. Is the engine code there on a Lynch Road built car? The N is present, the E63 is present, no engine code is present on my fender tag. After reading current post about some one thinking wrongly that an E body didn’t come with elasto rubber bumpers front and back only because it wasn’t anywhere on a fender tag for all to see and worship makes me even bring this issue up. The BCS is only source to turn to unless you also have something like the sales invoices (magnificent documents) that Furyman has posted. (Drool!!!) Or a window sticker. I’d enjoy to know the ‘official’ names used for all these pre-delivery documents that you have. Even with the ‘sales invoice’ that shows engine ordered, and trans, and either a/c or no a/c, you still need to know everything else that is discussed here. Remember some cars have no b-sheet and no fender tag and no sales voice, nothing.

Correct Mr. Vanila B.Vert the magician where required. Hey 426runner - I never work with smoke and mirrors on stage. I did cloud things here with previous ignorance on my part. The thread was bogged down at the end by the windage tray info, you won’t be tearing the engine apart looking for valve springs and windage trays when buying your next one, no, you’ll be looking it over and scanning the fender tag, BCS, and any sales invoice/window sticker that are still present along with everything else still original. My contribution to this forum has been to spend my time researching and to offer my conclusions from evidence presented, if I have failed you all in this, then I am a failure.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

Do you also have a BCS dogpro? If so, can you post the engine & carb codes. Thanks bro.

I see in Paul Herd's Challenger Barracuda resto guide on page 42 when speaking of radiators. Mine has the 61 radiator so it also has a fan shroud. Look at the note next to 3/4 speed no a/c with a 54 radiator and auto with no a/c and a 60 radiator. The only left is a 383 4bbl Max Cool rad, the ultra expensive hemi '56' radiator also found in 383 4bbl. Any way, it states no fan shroud for 330hp engines with 54 or 60 radiator.

Is it a clue, is it fact?

So I guess this BS23 is an E86 not E63 cause it's orange with AC eh?