Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: Jacob Pitt]
#544580
12/04/09 02:12 PM
12/04/09 02:12 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
|
OP
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Quote:
No journal taper, no journals out of round, no journals to big or small. At least not enough to cause any problems.
I'm not quite sure how to respond here... So, they weren't "right", but they were "close enough" to use? Or they were within normal ranges for whatever specs your machinist bases his decisions on?
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: 1968RR]
#544581
12/04/09 03:07 PM
12/04/09 03:07 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,038 Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,038
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
Here's the truth: I can machine a crank down more accurately than ANY machine shop in the world. Period. I have full access to a scanning electron microscope (SEM) with a resolution of better than 5 angstroms and years of experience working with one (+ Ph.D. in physics). I also have access to vertical-cavity surface-emitting laser (typically used for semiconductor applications, but suitable for iron), capable of machining a crank to within a tolerance of 12 nm (that's 7 zeros to the right of the decimal before you get to the "1"). Using the SEM and VCSEL I can machine an entire crank. Given the fact that the etching process requires almost exactly 100 hours to etch and area of 1 cm^2 and I'll need at least 40 hours on the SEM per square cm to check tolerances, AND the fact that the approximate journal surface of a BB Mopar crank is 660 cm^2, AND the fact that I have to purchase time on both the SEM and VCSEL ($135/hour on the SEM and $1700/day on the VCSEL) in order to do this, you're looking at a $17589000 price tag for me to machine your crank better than ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD CAN. I'll even throw in free shipping if you place your order before 5 p.m. today! I guess everyone has their standards as to what's acceptable.
A guy owes me $20,000,000. I'll have him send you the check. Do a crank for me and I'll have a shipper pick it up. Send me the balance - less $100,000. for yourself as a handling fee.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: BradH]
#544582
12/04/09 03:17 PM
12/04/09 03:17 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528 Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
|
Quote:
Quote:
No journal taper, no journals out of round, no journals to big or small. At least not enough to cause any problems.
I'm not quite sure how to respond here... So, they weren't "right", but they were "close enough" to use? Or they were within normal ranges for whatever specs your machinist bases his decisions on?
I'm not quite sure what you want to hear. They didn't need any extra work. They were not out of round, did not have excessive taper, did not require turning, did not need excessive metal to balance, have ran with zero problems. Don't know what else to tell you.
2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ #4 in the World IHRA Stock 2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ 14x Track Champ All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: Von]
#544583
12/04/09 05:15 PM
12/04/09 05:15 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Brad,
PM Wayne (Big Squeeze) and see what his findings have been.
I don't assemble a LOT of motors (roughly 12 to 20/year) but, I've never had a cheap crank that was ready to drop in, out of the box.....They've all needed at least the rods, mains, or both ground to be fixed (and that's not counting the two from a source I bought cranks from that the counter weight hit the block when the crank was slid forward to check endplay AND the other I'd bought that had the indexing so far off (.035) it wasn't even fixable )........I just plan on having them all indexed.......and for the power level most of the motors are at that I work on, the cheap cranks are fine, if machined right.....
FYI......I sent the crank back, that had the throw off .035", and, long story short, I know they resold it as-is....so some poor sap got a crappy crank that they mic'd and thought was "good"......
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
#544584
12/04/09 05:52 PM
12/04/09 05:52 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
|
I'm not digging thru my files... but as I recall as far as cranks go: 440Source within factory tolerances. Some larger, some tighter, but within specs. Measured journals at 90° at each bearing surface. They all had taper but less than .0005 accross the bearing journals and tended to have areas around the oil holes that were not flat for lack of a better term. Clearances were purely a function of crank journals as the rods (440Source) all had to be resized on the big ends. I did not check indexing or stroke any more than piston deck height which was within .002" accross each bank but some of that could have been rod conter to center length. Callies (small block): Perfect. No taper, exactly in center of factory size range. MP cast (small block..Scat?): Within factory tolerances. Minor taper but less than .0005" accross each bearing journal. Eagle cast(small block): Same as MP. Within factory tolerances. Most journals were no taper, but one rod had .0005.
That's what I recall anyway.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: 506RR]
#544586
12/04/09 08:29 PM
12/04/09 08:29 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
|
Quote:
My 440 Source 4.25 crank needed a little work done before my machinest was ready to call it good. Can't find the measurements in my file, but I did have to pay about $150 to get it "worked" on a little in the crank grinder. I'll keep looking for exactly what was done to it. Been 3 years ago, and I have a hard time remembering what happened yesterday.
With that being said, I have been running this crank right at 800 HP (flywheel) for over 3 years in a stock RB Block. I hit it with a 175 shot of nitrous right on the line, and it runs 10.5's in a 4100 lbs car at Bandimere Speedway. So far, so good.
Brian, who did you use for the crank work?
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: BradH]
#544587
12/04/09 09:00 PM
12/04/09 09:00 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
cheap aftermarket crank. not always about the rod jounals or mains.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: blownzoom440]
#544589
12/04/09 10:02 PM
12/04/09 10:02 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky
wyoming
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,152
Fancy Farm Ky
|
My 440 Source mic ok, was about .0005 taper, mostly rod journals, didn't put it in a crank grinder to check futher, have 4 years on it, never had the car dyno'd, but car will run 10.2 at Vegas, 10.5 at Salt Lake, 3740 lbs, made it 250 passes so far, I've checked the bearings and they still look good. Run the 440 Source rods, they miced good also. Plan on checking bearings again this winter, hadn't gotten around to it yet.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: wyoming]
#544590
12/04/09 10:27 PM
12/04/09 10:27 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Run the 440 Source rods, they miced good also........
I've run them too.........and they mic'd fine, but when you loosen and retorque the rods with a stretch gauge, the big end goes out of round and needs to be resized......
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: 64Post]
#544592
12/05/09 11:27 AM
12/05/09 11:27 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 977 Colorado
506RR
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 977
Colorado
|
Quote:
Quote:
My 440 Source 4.25 crank needed a little work done before my machinest was ready to call it good. Can't find the measurements in my file, but I did have to pay about $150 to get it "worked" on a little in the crank grinder. I'll keep looking for exactly what was done to it. Been 3 years ago, and I have a hard time remembering what happened yesterday.
With that being said, I have been running this crank right at 800 HP (flywheel) for over 3 years in a stock RB Block. I hit it with a 175 shot of nitrous right on the line, and it runs 10.5's in a 4100 lbs car at Bandimere Speedway. So far, so good.
Brian, who did you use for the crank work?
I used Doug's Machine and Crankshaft Grinding in Fort Collins. He is a really good machinist. All of my stuff for my last two builds have went to him.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: BradH]
#544593
12/06/09 03:13 PM
12/06/09 03:13 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 12 PA
FHW
member
|
member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 12
PA
|
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
#544594
12/06/09 04:33 PM
12/06/09 04:33 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
|
Quote:
cheap aftermarket crank. not always about the rod jounals or mains.
Looks like mine..
Eagle cast (according to their specifications, it shoulda been enough) Rod journal on the 1/2 throw had over .0005" taper and put it under the low at it's smallest point. Gave me acceptable clearance so I ran it anyway. Counterweights were too tall, once the rod was torqued, they hit pistons. Learned me a lesson that day, don't just put a piston on the rod with a half bearing and check for clearances to the crank, torque it down and THEN check the clearances. Eagle SIR rods. H beams probably wouldn't move that much. Learned a lot on that build. Won't run eagle again. They can't seem to figure out the counterweights need to clear the pistons. This is my new Scat, everything checked out spot on with it. Cost 900+ with the stage 1 lightening done to it. Believe it weighs in at 52 lbs.
Run a lot of Scats, a few RPM's and several Eagles. They all seem to be fine, except for some fitment issues with the eagles in ford and chryslers.
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#544596
12/07/09 01:55 AM
12/07/09 01:55 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
|
Quote:
Nine Ohio BB cranks so far, no issues or come backs except one 440 motor with the 4.25 stroke Ohoi crank using CAT 7.1 H beam rods, rods went out of round and lost oil pressure
Oh CAT, good products there! Cat rockers, 6000 miles...
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#544597
12/07/09 12:01 PM
12/07/09 12:01 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282 A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282
A gulag near you.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Nine Ohio BB cranks so far, no issues or come backs except one 440 motor with the 4.25 stroke Ohoi crank using CAT 7.1 H beam rods, rods went out of round and lost oil pressure
Oh CAT, good products there! Cat rockers, 6000 miles...
that picture tells me someone also forgot to check reatiner to rocker clearance ...
|
|
|
Re: How accurate have your "budget" cranks really been?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#544599
12/07/09 02:26 PM
12/07/09 02:26 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716 Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
|
master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
|
Quote:
Every K-1 was perfect... Monte
Thanks, Monte. I was wondering how the K1's measured out.
|
|
|
|
|