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Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519525
10/22/10 09:22 PM
10/22/10 09:22 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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jake71 Offline OP
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So here's the starting point of the build. I have only planned for the short block so far as I'm still learning about all of the resources available for figuring out the heads, cam, lifters and so on.
I found a 1970 383HP motor on Craig's List. It was a little rusty but it looked ok to me. $250.00
I took it to US Automotive Machine and Performance here in Loveland CO and discussed my goals with Tom and Jeff. After a little back and forth on who to get the parts from, they both agreed that after checking with their vendors, they'd also go with 440 Source for the rotating assembly. I initially was a bit concerned with Tom's recommendation to go with his vendor, who for diplomatic reasons shall remain nameless, but was greatly relieved when I returned a few days later to learn that he and Jeff had done some research on their own and felt that 440 Source had all of the bases covered and were now straying from just the bottom line for making a buck but were actually putting me, the customer, first.
So, Jeff being the apparent right machinist for the job went ahead and started cutting on my block to essentially "blue print" it and find out how far we needed to take it to clean up the bores. He found at about .043 over we were looking pretty good and stopped. The right thing to do as he doesn't have the new pistons to correctly do a finish bore and hone.
My turn. There's surely going to be a lot of this back and forth here. Since 440 Source doesn't give any discounts to the the machine shops, Tom had me order the parts myself to save on taxes. Another thing to consider when talking to the machine shop. Can he make a buck on the parts? After all, labor in most businesses pays the overhead so where's the guys profits? I'll discuss how I intend to make it profitable to them once I've got my short block back and we're square on the agreed upon pricing. My experience has been great with these guys and I believe most shops will be honest, but let the buyer be ware! You might be the guy who comes in when the guys rent is do!
So anyway, $250 for the block,$1997 for the rotating assembly, $70 for upgrading to the ARP rod bolts, $50 for the upgrade to the chamferred main bearings, $374 for a main girdle kit with billet steel main caps, and a few bucks for misc. bolts, timimg pointer etc coming to a total of $2801.39 from 440 Source.
So without figuring machine work I'm into this for $3051.39. (I love you Kate!)
Stay tuned for the updates, I'm learning just as much as some of you watching! To the others, I still do appreciate the comments and suggestions!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519526
10/22/10 09:28 PM
10/22/10 09:28 PM
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Ridgeland Wi
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you could go the FAST rout all the power to you though for the upgrades! sounds like a blast


1971 Plymouth Duster 340 auto
1937 Plymouth PT50
1969 Dodge Dart Swinger 340 4 speed
2013 Ram laramie 2500 hemi
2008 Harley FLSTSB springer
Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519527
10/22/10 09:35 PM
10/22/10 09:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 290
Loveland Colorado
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jake71 Offline OP
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I almost forgot to include some dates for a time line!
I dropped of the block with Tom and Jeff on 10/19.
Got the necessary info from Jeff on 10/21 to place my order with 440 Source.
Placed my order with Kim at 440 Source on 10/21 @ 2 PM.
Now waiting for the estimated 5 business days shipping so Jeff can get back to work on my beast!
More to come!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519528
10/22/10 09:44 PM
10/22/10 09:44 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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Oops! I almost forgot. I would like to thank Wayne Smothers for the fantastic information on his DVD! I'm certainly no motor guru but I have noticed a huge difference in my confidence and ability to have a conversation about a performance engine build and have experienced a few times the "deer-in-the-headlights" look from guys that normally would have run the conversation! Still love 'em but hay, let's learn! Thanks Wayne!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519529
10/26/10 09:28 PM
10/26/10 09:28 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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Got my tracking number from 440 source and I'm scheduled for delivery tomorrow sometime from FedEx. Looking forward to the shiny-go-faster stuff!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519530
10/26/10 09:32 PM
10/26/10 09:32 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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Loveland Colorado
Quick note on the body. No rear valance for another 45-60 days from AMD. Anyone have a decent one with exhaust cutouts for sale? I can't do much more on the back without this piece to make sure I've got things in the right place. Thanks in advance!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519531
01/23/11 01:19 AM
01/23/11 01:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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...well...?


11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: 67Charger] #519532
01/23/11 02:13 AM
01/23/11 02:13 AM

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He said to hell with it and gave up..... I think.

Last edited by Superfreak; 02/09/11 08:15 PM.
Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: ] #519533
01/23/11 04:34 PM
01/23/11 04:34 PM
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Posts: 290
Loveland Colorado
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jake71 Offline OP
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Loveland Colorado
Ok fellas, I'm here and I haven't given up! It's been really crazy around here lately and I've just been a bit overwhelmed. I have not by choice learned how to rebuild a 722.6 Mercedes transmission. Pretty cool but it took me 4 tries!!! I ended up making a tool to hydraulically test it and found that two of the o-ring seals were actually to thin and it wasn't sealing! If anyone has one of these in their Mopar and needs help, I have a stupid amount of info I'm more than willing to share!
Back to the cool stuff. I have a nearly complete engine for the rust bucket. After lots and lots of reading and discussions I came up with this combo.
496 stroker kit from 440 source (.060 over)
10.4:1 compression
Indy Little EZ cnc heads (295cc intake)
Indy single plane Wedge intake
Comp 272 intake 276 exhaust @ .050 gross .621 .621 108 separation cam
Barry Grant 950 RS Race Demon carb (don't have yet)
TTI 1 7/8" headers (don't have yet)
Melling high volume oil pump
440 source main girdle with billet steel caps
2 piece Indy valley plate
Indy supplied roller lifters and and rockers
All ARP and Manley fasteners
440 source oil pan
Cometic .060 head gaskets and oil pan gasket
440 source water pump
440 source SFI fluid damper
440 source SFI flex plate
440 source 1/2" oil pick-up
#77 Muggy welding rod (We'll get into that later)
This has been a very frustrating experience and I'll post the sequence of events here soon. I've certainly got the itch again now and I'll fill you all in here within a couple days. Let's just say things are not always as they appear to be!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519534
01/23/11 04:35 PM
01/23/11 04:35 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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P.S. I'm not goofing off, I'm trying to find my shop under all of this crap!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519535
01/23/11 04:45 PM
01/23/11 04:45 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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Hey SuperFreak, I know your ride doesn't really require it but have you done anything with the rotisserie? Just curious 'cause you have some pretty amazing fab skills and I'd like to see how you might improve on the design!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519536
01/23/11 09:51 PM
01/23/11 09:51 PM

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Quote:

Hey SuperFreak, I know your ride doesn't really require it but have you done anything with the rotisserie? Just curious 'cause you have some pretty amazing fab skills and I'd like to see how you might improve on the design!




Have not done anything yet but I will definitely be doing a rotisserie for the 66 mustang. I did look in to a couple of hydraulic rams for one last month. I am in the design process for a jig as well because I will be replacing front and rear frame rails, I should have took the car in for scrap if I was smart but I am a working man and that should tell you how stupid I am.
Unfortunately I am one of those people that get bored very fast and need to keep myself challenged and I have the same problem at work.
I thank you again for sending me the plans and not to worry your efforts will not go in vain.
Looking forward to seeing progress of your car, me I have been re-organizing my shop with cabinets and lots of shelving for the parts that keep coming, I was looking like one of those hoarders on tv.

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: ] #519537
01/23/11 11:26 PM
01/23/11 11:26 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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Me too, my shop was a mess! I spent all day today cleaning and organizing but I've got a ways to go yet!
Keep doin' it when you can and we'll get there when we get there!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519538
02/09/11 04:09 PM
02/09/11 04:09 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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So the build had some interesting turns but all in all it was fun. Here you can see that they sent me an RB intake. What you can't see is that they also sent me an RB valley plate. Before I reallized the intake problem, I took the extra width off the valley plate with my table saw set at 45 degrees. Came out with a better finish than it had originally! Still have to send the intake back for correct B size.








The two piece valley plate will come in handy when I get closer to firing it up. The roller lifter instructions advise not to install them too long before start up so the oil doesn't drain out of them before break-in.



Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519539
02/09/11 04:49 PM
02/09/11 04:49 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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jake71 Offline OP
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Ok, so the build was a big learning experience. I don't really know how much of this is normal and how much was "other than normal" but here's the way it went down.
Everything went well during the initial ordering and receiving except the intake mix up. After about a week in the machine shop I was told the sonic test was good and the line bore guy was getting my caps and block honed. That took about a week and a half. No problem there except that I figured there would be a report on the sonic test. I didn't get one.
So the machine shop gets the block back and finishes the bore and torque plate hone supposedly to fit each individual piston. The reason I say supposedly is because in the past when I got my block and pistons back the pistons were numbered-these were not and only one had benn handled. I say that with some confidence as everything that was touched was pretty dirty.
Afew days pass and the machinist calls me to come see something. At first I thought maybe he had finished the work and I would be able to take it home. Not the case. He wanted to show me that my dirty piston was a little in the hole. Not a seemingly big deal, how high is it I asked? I don't know he replied! I'm getting a little scared at this point. So I said can we measure it? He says he's been trying but keeps getting different numbers! I'm officially scared! The tools being used obviously weren't up to the task so I stayed there for about an hour and a half trying to get a accurate measurement with no deck bridge. After putting the piston and rod assembly in all for corners we found that the deck wasn't machined even from side to side so I had him deck it to blue print taking only what was necessary to clean the lower side and that meant taking .019" off the high side. At this point I still didn't know what my deck height was but I was pretty sure it was even now. I did buy a deck bridge and check it when I got it home and it was even with .021" proud pistons. No problem.
Back to the machine shop. Last minute he calls me and asks if I want the block machined for a 1/2" oil pick up and says I really ought to. I had read in many places that it wasn't necessary for my application but I figured it can't hurt for $25. He cracked the block! I went to look at the finished product and immediately saw the crack in the pick up boss. He gave me the look and said he'd try to find someone to weld it up for me. I said that's ok, I'll handle it. I just wanted my block home before anything else happened!
So that was my experience with the machine shop. More on the repair of the block later. Thanks for checking it out and sorry it's so long!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519540
02/09/11 05:12 PM
02/09/11 05:12 PM
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Loveland Colorado
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jake71 Offline OP
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Almost forgot another big one! When I went to check out the deck height problem, the machinist wanted to show me how good the cam fit was in the bearings. You had to turn it with a wrench! He said that was pretty darn good for a Chrysler block! When he pulled the cam out it was pretty hard to miss the deep sctatches in my sexy new Dura Bond coated bearings! Not thrilled about that one. So now I own a cam bearing installation tool and really nice new bearings and screwed up old bearings. He kept giving me a hard time about wanting put my motor together because that's the fun part but in my eyes, if you can't get the cam from the bag to the bearings without getting it dirty...
So when I got my cam tool I pushed the bearings and found out what the problem was. He apparently had 3 of the bearings cocked while driving them in as you could see on the opposing surface of all of the scuffing, the bearings were crushed like a beer can! I drove the exact same brand and type of new bearing in and my CLEAN cam now spun freely by hand! Not bad for a Chrysler!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519541
02/10/11 02:05 AM
02/10/11 02:05 AM
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Posts: 290
Loveland Colorado
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Another thing I forgot to mention is that my machinist at one point said to me, as though he was trying to make sure I'd feel confident in my build, I " I brushed the hell out of the oil galleys". Well, I pulled the freshly installed plugs and found large chunks of rust scale! So a brushing I went. Don't assume anything!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519542
02/10/11 02:22 AM
02/10/11 02:22 AM
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Posts: 290
Loveland Colorado
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So, the cracked oil pick up boss was a fairly easy fix though it took all day to do it correctly. I used Muggy 77 rod and put a pass in to fill the crack and then made several passes over the boss to build it up to a stout thickness being carefull to peen it after every pass not welding more than an inch at a time. The rod is supposed to be more like cast iron in that it has a similar expansion/contraction rate.I felt very confident in the process as I have welded a few cast iron pieces in the past and this seemed to go rather well.The hardest part was that since I penetrated through the threads, running a tap through would just hang up on the weld. The only way I could figure to fix the threads was to use my Dremel tool with the thin wafer cutting discs and slice through the weld until I had good uniform threads. That took a while! After all was said and done, it was virtually perfect and I ran a 1/2" nipple into the boss and torqued it way down to check the integrity of the boss-it held just fine and I feel it'll be the last thing to go in my block.
If anyone has any questions as to how to repair a crack in cast, I'm not an expert but I've had some pretty good experiences with it and would like to share. The old oven methods don't always apply. Thanks again for hangin' with me. I'm almost done with organizing my shop and will be back at the body soon!

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: jake71] #519543
02/10/11 10:13 AM
02/10/11 10:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,992
midwest
6
68427vette Offline
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please post this machine shop name, number, and location,, SO WE NEVER GO THERE!!!

i hope you paid $0.00 for his time and his f(*(& CK ups!!
what a piece of work!!! can't even install a cam. must be working of fridays, or taking to many breaks.

Re: Jake's Challenger/Rust [Re: 68427vette] #519544
02/10/11 11:18 AM
02/10/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
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Wow, how does this machine shop stay in business if they are that incompetent? At least tell us what city it's in.

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