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Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
#488931
10/05/09 01:33 PM
10/05/09 01:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Need a no more than 14.1, 440 cubic in smallblock, that can make 850-900 hp on a single carb, cast intake. What head would you use. As mentioned, it can't have really high compression, or super light parts, as it will have a large dose of nitrous. Trying to decide if there is a Mopar combination, that can compete with the Fords and Chevys, within the given rules. These are stock suspended, 28x 10.5 slick cars. Single nitrous plate only. Weigh from 3100-3300 depending on head. The quickest I know of right now, is one of my customers with a 15* small Chevy in a Mustang. Went 5.22 @ 134 Saturday night, with the single plate, at over 3300lbs. The fastest speed (which is power) is also one of my customers. He has been nearly 136 @ 3300lbs, with a canted valve, 9* Ford head. That motor makes 908hp..........Lets hear it smallblock guys, can the small Mopar do it. Not worried about the chassis, as the motor will likely go in something that works, like a Mustang or torque arm Camaro.
Monte
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488932
10/05/09 02:13 PM
10/05/09 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
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Quote:
Need a no more than 14.1, 440 cubic in smallblock, that can make 850-900 hp on a single carb, cast intake. What head would you use. As mentioned, it can't have really high compression, or super light parts, as it will have a large dose of nitrous. Trying to decide if there is a Mopar combination, that can compete with the Fords and Chevys, within the given rules. These are stock suspended, 28x 10.5 slick cars. Single nitrous plate only. Weigh from 3100-3300 depending on head. The quickest I know of right now, is one of my customers with a 15* small Chevy in a Mustang. Went 5.22 @ 134 Saturday night, with the single plate, at over 3300lbs. The fastest speed (which is power) is also one of my customers. He has been nearly 136 @ 3300lbs, with a canted valve, 9* Ford head. That motor makes 908hp..........Lets hear it smallblock guys, can the small Mopar do it. Not worried about the chassis, as the motor will likely go in something that works, like a Mustang or torque arm Camaro.
Monte
CFE W8 heads will do it. Do you HAVE to run a cast intake per rules?
I think you can get 850 with a wet sump system, the right ring stack and bore finish.
Can you go 48° lifter bores?
Brian Hafliger
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#488933
10/05/09 02:19 PM
10/05/09 02:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
Need a no more than 14.1, 440 cubic in smallblock, that can make 850-900 hp on a single carb, cast intake. What head would you use. As mentioned, it can't have really high compression, or super light parts, as it will have a large dose of nitrous. Trying to decide if there is a Mopar combination, that can compete with the Fords and Chevys, within the given rules. These are stock suspended, 28x 10.5 slick cars. Single nitrous plate only. Weigh from 3100-3300 depending on head. The quickest I know of right now, is one of my customers with a 15* small Chevy in a Mustang. Went 5.22 @ 134 Saturday night, with the single plate, at over 3300lbs. The fastest speed (which is power) is also one of my customers. He has been nearly 136 @ 3300lbs, with a canted valve, 9* Ford head. That motor makes 908hp..........Lets hear it smallblock guys, can the small Mopar do it. Not worried about the chassis, as the motor will likely go in something that works, like a Mustang or torque arm Camaro.
Monte
CFE W8 heads will do it. Do you HAVE to run a cast intake per rules?
I think you can get 850 with a wet sump system, the right ring stack and bore finish.
Can you go 48° lifter bores?
Yes, single 4 barrel, cast intake. Any block and no dry sump. As far as ring stack, it CAN'T be fragile, or low tension. The motor will see large doses of nitrous, so that means TNT top ring, Napier second and standard tension oil package.
Monte
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488935
10/05/09 02:26 PM
10/05/09 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Need a no more than 14.1, 440 cubic in smallblock, that can make 850-900 hp on a single carb, cast intake. What head would you use. As mentioned, it can't have really high compression, or super light parts, as it will have a large dose of nitrous. Trying to decide if there is a Mopar combination, that can compete with the Fords and Chevys, within the given rules. These are stock suspended, 28x 10.5 slick cars. Single nitrous plate only. Weigh from 3100-3300 depending on head. The quickest I know of right now, is one of my customers with a 15* small Chevy in a Mustang. Went 5.22 @ 134 Saturday night, with the single plate, at over 3300lbs. The fastest speed (which is power) is also one of my customers. He has been nearly 136 @ 3300lbs, with a canted valve, 9* Ford head. That motor makes 908hp..........Lets hear it smallblock guys, can the small Mopar do it. Not worried about the chassis, as the motor will likely go in something that works, like a Mustang or torque arm Camaro.
Monte
CFE W8 heads will do it. Do you HAVE to run a cast intake per rules?
I think you can get 850 with a wet sump system, the right ring stack and bore finish.
Can you go 48° lifter bores?
Yes, single 4 barrel, cast intake. Any block and no dry sump. As far as ring stack, it CAN'T be fragile, or low tension. The motor will see large doses of nitrous, so that means TNT top ring, Napier second and standard tension oil package.
Monte
What about vacume pumps? You'll need 380 cfm in the intake and the right cam, but I think it's do-able too.
Brian Hafliger
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488937
10/05/09 04:40 PM
10/05/09 04:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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13 Degree CFE's with 2.25"/1.56" valve combo (I would'nt do his newer 10 degree stuff for variety of reasons on a 440" deal)
420 intake setup for 4500 flange.....
14:1
Large roller, big pan, vaccum pump, 1150 Dom.....
4.185 bore, 4.0" stroke, turn it 8000-8200, should make 900-950 pretty easy depending on dyno.
He'll have close to $10K in complete heads/manifold/rockers/VCs. Most SB Mopar guys not too thrilled about those costs, that's why you don't see alot of them being done.
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: RyanJ]
#488938
10/05/09 06:39 PM
10/05/09 06:39 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 636
Central,Ohio
FASTFISH420
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 636
Central,Ohio
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Should be a piece of cake to make that power at 440 cubes and CFE heads..I agree use the 13 to 15 degree angle W8's..
1969 Barracuda 8 second all/motor small block
2014 Shelby GT500 Mustang
Uratchko Racing Engines
www.URE-RACING.com
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: FASTFISH420]
#488939
10/05/09 06:52 PM
10/05/09 06:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,163
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,163
Melbourne , Australia
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I worked out very quickly that most Mopar guys won't spring for a set of CFE prepped W8's. I have been trying to sell mine and most run the other way when I tell them what I want for them.
AL....
Alan Jones
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488940
10/05/09 07:29 PM
10/05/09 07:29 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Monty do me a favour and don't let this post DIE. Unless the customer doesn't do it. There are very few poeple that I listen to and I am very interested in what you R going to build. I don't care what you put it in just keep us informed!  Matt
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: dartman366]
#488943
10/05/09 08:47 PM
10/05/09 08:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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15* Coleman NASCAR W-8 with MBE touch up. Went 402cfm @.800 417ci, tick under 14-1, 278-294@50, on a 113 in @109, 420 intake, Willy's 4150-1.750 blade-1.590 hole, air pump, nitrous piston-pin-ringstack, 2-2.125-2.250 headers. 861hp@8200-634tq on an inertia dyno. The same dyno that Emilio's Duster engine (Pinks winner) and a number of other guys use that run right on or close to their number so I doubt its a loose number. I would think at 440ci with a killer CFE head, a well done 420 and a dominator, 925+ will be attainable. Keep us posted...I'm doing a similar motor next year with a sheetmetal and 2x4 max N/A, no oxide.
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: scottb]
#488944
10/05/09 09:09 PM
10/05/09 09:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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Ran 5.28 1/8 mile 3,350 weight with 15 degree Arrington heads, a double cross plate with .065 nitrous pills. I never could do it with the 30X13.5 tire though. 5.37 was the best with that tire if memory serves correct. But, you guys can do awesome things with those small tires.
For whatever reason everytime I tried any tension on the oil ring it killed the car. You might want to step out of the box a little there. Also when I dropped the compression below 15:1 it made a pig out of the engine. Be aware I was doing this with head gasket not in the piston. One issue we have with Mopars using huge intake valves with small bore is you have to completely bury the top ring to get any meat Valve pocket to ring groove. You crank the bore to 4.250" and you better have a perfect block. 4.185" is a safer bore but you loose .025 realistically in the VP to ring groove.
If you really want to lay it out on spray. And you are running a plate. A hard look at a modified circle track head may be the ticket. Not uncommon to have a 15 degree W8 far more to work with than the Arrington head ever was. 2.200/1.6 valve combo.
Your always fighting a double edged sword. Do you run a 13 degree head and be more prone to detonation or back it off to slow things down a little. Do you run compression to make the motor have some guts and have good staging manors with the high first gear you run or give compression up for better nitrous manners. Run huge intake valve and starve the exhaust and depend on a cam grinder to make it work of just put the valves that work in the head. Just like an engine from any make what does it like. Deal is if you run a Ford or Chevie you have tons of engines to get real world info from. Run a Mopar, go and hope you can get good info from guys who have or are doing it. They will not give you bad info on purpose but that doesn't mean things are not going on that maybe haven't surfaced yet. I have spent a lot of time running around in circles. I also spent a lot of time running a car that did not take full advantage of the rules at the time. When I did I ran better. You got to figure a lot of guys are running something someone else built. They are probably not running what they think they have. My experience is ask a builder to do something and take it apart later to find it just wasn't what you asked for. So I quickly decided to do my own. That is not always easy. I sure as hell never figured it all out. What I did figure I would be glad to share with anyone.
If I go purpose built for nitrous without a limit on the purse or parts I already have this is what it will be.
P7 heads from an ole round-d-round deal. A block from Ritter. A 4" callies crank. 4.185" bore sense that is what the heads were designed to run with. Hmm that's 440 CID. This is a relatively cheap engine that will run with just about anything small block wise with stock bore spacing.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: one bad fish]
#488947
10/06/09 12:42 AM
10/06/09 12:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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A nitrous motor is always a compromise to max power, because there are a few things you MUST do, to make it live on spray, or at least a few things I do, without question, no matter how much N/A power it costs me. One is on ring selection. Yes, there is power in a trick ring stack, but that trick stack is useless, if you can't keep oil out of the chamber on spray. Oil has an octane rating of about 40. You let some oil slip by the "trick" ring stack, the motor detonates and you have a box full of fancy alum ashtrays, so a fairly heavy tension oil ring is a must. Another is compression. Much over 14 on a nitrous motor, makes the motor so picky on timing, that it actually hurts performance on nitrous. Nitrous motors also do not like a tight quench and the most important thing, is a piston that can take it. That means a piston with enough CD, to get the ring down, to give thickness between the pocket and ring land. Every thing mentioned here, hurts N/A numbers, so that is the purpose of this post, to poll some more experienced small block builders, to decide if this motor can make the required steam, with all the performance killers, that must be included, to make it live on nitrous. As mentioned, it won't be cheap, but the guy wants to do it, IF it is feasible. The main reason I am trying to get him to try it, well actually a few reasons, is one, there are no Mopars doing this, two is the higher deck gives me room to work and three, there are some very good Mopar heads out there, so lets see what one will do.
Most of the faster cars in this class, are my customers and the head combos range from Blue Thunder, Yates, Neal and Bennet heads on the Fords, to 15*, 18* and SB2 stuff on the Chevys. So I have had the opportunity to tune on a lot of different valve angle combinations and ultimately, that is what it boils down to. So knowing that Mopars have some good heads in this valve angle range and the taller deck block, seems to make this combo a natural.
Monte
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488948
10/06/09 06:00 AM
10/06/09 06:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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Scott wouldn't even consider putting a 4" crank in anything less than 9.580 deck. Had a memory problem couldn't remember the name for Ritter's block at the time of my post. The block is called the XR.
For the ET desired you could build any W7- W9 combo and get there. You just have to look back many of us have already been there done that. Greg Bentley, Mike Gray and Myself have done this with heavy, leaf spring cars. We all were probably running extremely fat tuneups. I know I was. So you just have to keep that in mind when you try to over nitrous think an engine. We all burned a piston or two. Most of us have ran these numbers with a 10 head bolt block. This was done 10 years ago by all of us. Shoot some of us did it with low tension 3/16 rings and no vacuum pump. And it lived. And when we did run a pump it was a Moroso. Now you have the star pump better rings and better crank seals available.
With todays technology, a car with working suspension like a Mustang or torque arm car. You wouldn't have to build anything spectacular to run in the 5.0 range if you can get a low 1.20 60 ft and 3.2's in the 330. The power is there in the small block Mopar. The only doubt I would have is are the short times possible. I hear they are.
SORRY I WASTED MY TIME WITH ANY SUGGESTIONS.
GOOD LUCK
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488949
10/06/09 07:02 AM
10/06/09 07:02 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
A nitrous motor is always a compromise to max power, because there are a few things you MUST do, to make it live on spray, or at least a few things I do, without question, no matter how much N/A power it costs me. One is on ring selection. Yes, there is power in a trick ring stack, but that trick stack is useless, if you can't keep oil out of the chamber on spray. Oil has an octane rating of about 40. You let some oil slip by the "trick" ring stack, the motor detonates and you have a box full of fancy alum ashtrays, so a fairly heavy tension oil ring is a must. Another is compression. Much over 14 on a nitrous motor, makes the motor so picky on timing, that it actually hurts performance on nitrous. Nitrous motors also do not like a tight quench and the most important thing, is a piston that can take it. That means a piston with enough CD, to get the ring down, to give thickness between the pocket and ring land. Every thing mentioned here, hurts N/A numbers, so that is the purpose of this post, to poll some more experienced small block builders, to decide if this motor can make the required steam, with all the performance killers, that must be included, to make it live on nitrous. As mentioned, it won't be cheap, but the guy wants to do it, IF it is feasible. The main reason I am trying to get him to try it, well actually a few reasons, is one, there are no Mopars doing this, two is the higher deck gives me room to work and three, there are some very good Mopar heads out there, so lets see what one will do.
Most of the faster cars in this class, are my customers and the head combos range from Blue Thunder, Yates, Neal and Bennet heads on the Fords, to 15*, 18* and SB2 stuff on the Chevys. So I have had the opportunity to tune on a lot of different valve angle combinations and ultimately, that is what it boils down to. So knowing that Mopars have some good heads in this valve angle range and the taller deck block, seems to make this combo a natural.
Monte
This is what I don't understand and don't take this as me thinking I know something  but what is the difference. A piston is a piston  whether it is a Ford, Chevy or Mopar? If it works in them it should work in a Mopar?
Matt
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: MattW]
#488950
10/06/09 07:58 AM
10/06/09 07:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Blue Ridge, VA
Plumb Wired
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Blue Ridge, VA
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Monte, like Leon mentioned several of us have gone 5.40's and quicker with older technology but on bigger tires. With a good chassis, 7531 MSD and your experience even a set of 15* Craftsman truck heads would get it done but if money is no object as mentioned go with the CFE's. I don't think the 28 x 10 tire is the limiting factor. My old KOS EZ Street Duster ran 5.40's @ 3350#, 430" (4.250 x 3.79) 9.20 deck R3 block, 15* Craftsman truck heads, single stage fogger, ladder bars on 29.5 x 10.5 MT's. We have had a couple of set backs with our current project but hope to be back out this weekend. The problem we have is weight. We can weigh 3000# for our local 28 x 10.5 class but the car is still 3150#. Shady Dell (RyanJ) 417" (4.185 x 3.79), 9.20 deck R3 block, 15* Craftsman truck heads with the manifold you plumbed for me and a Liberty 5 speed. The heavy hitters here are running 5.20's as well and I think we can be competitive, we've ran some 6.00's on motor only. This motor was built from stuff I had lying around and put in my buddy's 69 Dart (ladder bar). If I were starting from scratch, tall deck R3, 4.00 stroke, 13* CFE's.  Mike Gray
RIP Monte Smith
aka: OutlawFish
'98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: 40ford]
#488952
10/07/09 12:10 AM
10/07/09 12:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Leon, you always get defensive, when I don't jump at what you say. I don't exactly agree with what you say about rings and combos and you get snippy. As far as "have done it"...to be honest, no you haven't, or did I miss the time that you went 5.30s, on a 28x10.5, non W tire, on stock suspension, at 3300lbs, with a smallblock, a cast single 4 intake and a single plate. Exactly when was that? What you, or anyone else did, on larger tires and with ladder bars and 4-links, has absolutely no bearing on this conversation. The cars that compete in this class have the best of the best motors, built by builders such as BES, Bennet, Wilkerson, Huntsville Engine, Kuntz, Pro-Line and many others. You are no going to just throw some old stuff together and run up front. As of this time, only a handfull of these cars have dipped into the high 20s and that took stellar conditions. Tell you what, there is a 10,000 race coming up for these type cars in Feb. Why don't you just throw something together and show us how easy it is.
Monte
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#488953
10/07/09 01:23 AM
10/07/09 01:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,487
SoCal
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I think I'm in the minority because I think 900+ will be difficult but not impossible. That's the reason I suggested CFE. If it was easy, everyone would do it  Like I said you'll need to "access" at least 380 cfm and everything down to the exhaust tuning and intake runner tuning will have to be spot on! Hope you keep us updated on this project Monte... 
Brian Hafliger
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#488954
10/07/09 01:33 AM
10/07/09 01:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
I think I'm in the minority because I think 900+ will be difficult but not impossible.
That's the reason I suggested CFE. If it was easy, everyone would do it
Like I said you'll need to "access" at least 380 cfm and everything down to the exhaust tuning and intake runner tuning will have to be spot on!
Hope you keep us updated on this project Monte...
Thanks Brian, I appreciate the honest response and I do know what I am getting into. The class is full of cross breeded cars, owners with plenty of money, and I know a few builders have had the green light to go any direction they thought was best, so if the small Mopar was such a slam dunk, there would be one already. This guy wants to be different and I am like you, I think we can get close to the top guys power wise, but will have to be smart about it.
Monte
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: scottb]
#488961
10/07/09 01:07 PM
10/07/09 01:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,786
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,786
Portage,michigan
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There isnt any doubt in my mind the R5 heads bolted onto the right shortblock would make 900 ponies.
The problem is, as Scott correctly point out, is that no such block currently exists, except one which has only been " dreamed about" thus far.
Last edited by B3422W5; 10/07/09 01:08 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam, footbrake street/strip car
Best so far, 10.32 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.56 at 104.17
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: Otherlane]
#488964
02/08/10 08:26 PM
02/08/10 08:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,578
KOS
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,578
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Quote:
Just call ryanj and be done with it that way you cut out of the b.s
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
[Re: MattW]
#488965
02/08/10 08:45 PM
02/08/10 08:45 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Any UPDATE Monty?  Matt
I asked Monte about this buildup a month or so ago and the owner decided to go a different direction....... 
Wayne
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Re: Smallblock question, Ryan J or ??
#488966
02/09/10 06:24 PM
02/09/10 06:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Any UPDATE Monty? Matt
I asked Monte about this buildup a month or so ago and the owner decided to go a different direction.......
Wayne [/quote
Thanks for the info! Matt
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