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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: sshemi]
#48047
11/29/07 05:26 PM
11/29/07 05:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S/ST 3040
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
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Quote:
Not really knowing what im doing have i actally increased port flow?
Is it possible to improve flownrs without touching the short turn?
I will try to post some pics in a few days.
You can increase flow on it without touching the short turn.
I removed the head bolt bulge (even with the wall) and
opened up the push-rod pinch and minor entrance work and
picked up 21 CFM. I got an additional 16 CFM with short turn
work. I haven't finished the chambers yet or decided on seat
angles so there's a few more in them but, that's all I'm saying.
Good luck.
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: S/ST 3040]
#48048
11/29/07 06:01 PM
11/29/07 06:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
sshemi
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
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What to do with the short turn???  Without destroying it.... I WANT TO LEARN!!! Ill probably flowbenchtest these heads when im done.
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: sshemi]
#48049
11/30/07 05:41 PM
11/30/07 05:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
sshemi
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: sshemi]
#48050
12/01/07 03:56 PM
12/01/07 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
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SoCal
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Quote:
 
You have to realize, if we could explain to you what to do, everyone could port heads. Porting takes so many years of trial and error, just imagine if someone could explain how to be a NINJA with a few simple words!!!!
It can't be done. Sorry, but that's a fact.
Brian
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: cheapstreetdustr]
#48053
12/02/07 12:29 AM
12/02/07 12:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
cheapstreetdustr
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,257
acworth / N. georgia - south e...
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i am currently running a set of stock irons with the pushrod pinch removed and offset rockers..
the short turn and valve job made a big difference.and took a while to hit the right combination..
including cam shaft..the wrong one just flat killed it..this thing likes lift.
cheapst.
365" Iron J heads,,3480lbs best 1.39 60ft on SS springs.10.54,124 mph ...6.67 1/8th et.average 60fts 1.46 w/ small cam &.063 no2 pill tagged & insured
[image][/image]
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#48055
12/02/07 05:52 AM
12/02/07 05:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
sshemi
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
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Quote:
Quote:
You have to realize, if we could explain to you what to do, everyone could port heads. Porting takes so many years of trial and error, just imagine if someone could explain how to be a NINJA with a few simple words!!!!
It can't be done. Sorry, but that's a fact.
Brian
You have to realize that i realize that. sorry that I didnt make myself clear. What i meant was is the shortturn so bad from e-brock so you have to do something to it just to make it ok.
I am no complete idiot.
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: sshemi]
#48056
12/02/07 02:11 PM
12/02/07 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You have to realize, if we could explain to you what to do, everyone could port heads. Porting takes so many years of trial and error, just imagine if someone could explain how to be a NINJA with a few simple words!!!!
It can't be done. Sorry, but that's a fact.
Brian
You have to realize that i realize that. sorry that I didnt make myself clear. What i meant was is the shortturn so bad from e-brock so you have to do something to it just to make it ok.
I am no complete idiot.
I sure didn't mean to sound like I thought you were an idiot! Sorry if you took it that way. I was trying to lighten the situation up a bit that's all.
I can tell you this, the short turn will end up looking like it would not work at all. But it will.
Just be carefull you dont go too far with it!
I'll post a mold I did of the stock port tomorrow nite so you can see what I mean. Infact the whole floor can be lowered quite a bit...
Brian
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: Stroker Scamp]
#48058
12/29/07 02:33 AM
12/29/07 02:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
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i'll bump this one back from the dead zone, since i'm actually hoping for a little more info to trickle out from Brian and S/ST.
ive ported a few sets of these heads, and frankly.....have never really been satisfied with what i got from them on the bench.
although, two of the sets i ported went on motors i got to dyno, and both made decent power. one of those 2 motors is in a bracket car that sees regular use, and i feel is a pretty strong runner for as basic of a combo as it is......yet, ive always felt there should be more to get out of these heads than what ive gotten from them.
what ive found is that they arent too bad OOTB, and respond nicely to a very minimal clean-up and valve job.
but beyond that, the gains come very hard, for me at least.
i'd like to hear an overview from Brian and S/ST, as to the approach they take in reshaping the short turns, roof, and chambers, to see how that might differ from what ive tried.
where are you grinding....and why?
ive tried several different approaches to the roof and short turns.......with about the same results either way.
how far are you sinking the valves to get a better blend from the V/J into the chamber?
when i look into the intake runners on these things....and look at the roof shape and angle......it just doesnt seem to make any sense to me.
what am i missing???
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#48059
12/29/07 02:47 AM
12/29/07 02:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
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Quote:
i'll bump this one back from the dead zone, since i'm actually hoping for a little more info to trickle out from Brian and S/ST.
ive ported a few sets of these heads, and frankly.....have never really been satisfied with what i got from them on the bench.
although, the two sets that went on motors i got to dyno both made decnt power, and one of those 2 motors is in a bracket car that sees regular use, and i feel is a pretty strong runner for as basic of a combo as it is......yet, ive always felt there should be more to get out of these heads than what ive gotten from them.
what ive found is that they arent too bad OOTB, and respond nicely to a very minimal clean-up and valve job.
but beyond that, the gains come very hard, for me at least.
i'd like to hear an overview from Brian and S/ST, as to the appraoch they take in reshaping the short turns, roof, and chambers, to see how that might differ from what ive tried.
where are you grinding....and why?
ibe tried several different approaches to the roof and short turns.......with about the same results either way.
how far are you sinking the valves to get a better blend from the V/J into the chamber?
when i look into the intake runners on these things....and look at the roof shape and angle......it just doesnt seem to make any sense to me.
what am i missing???
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, I went through that as well when I first started on them.
I first open the pushrod pinch up to max. I do raise the roof some, but not a bunch. Mostly where the roof tapers down to the wall.
Here's some info I don't like to give out, but without having a feel for it, most people probably couldn't do it...I move the pushrod side of the wall from right after the pinch to the bowl...alot. Think SB chevy brodix T1 head. It's real easy to get lost when moving this wall because it' a constant taper into the bowl. So I made templates to help me. They are only card board but it helps alot.
Then if you've ever seen an older afr chevy head's S/T that's what you shoot for on the short turn. And you have to measure the air speed at the pushrod pinch on each port if valve lift is going to exceed .650 lift. If the port is too fast here it will screw up the air speed over the short turn.
But Dwayne, I don't know if your bench will pull 28"'s....and I also check the ports at 36" when I'm done. Just to listen to the port and see how the air changes in the port from low lift to high lift. It's pretty amazing!!
Hope this helps, all I can say is that it takes a loooooong time to port when doing them this way.
Brian
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#48060
12/29/07 11:50 AM
12/29/07 11:50 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S/ST 3040
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
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Dwayne....First of all, I'm glad to see you posting here more often.  Concerning the SB Edelbrock heads, these are the second set I've ever done. The first set was done in 1999. I'm in agreement with Brian here on the information I give out, even though it's hard for the average racer to duplicate. Hell, sometimes it's hard for me to duplicate! This head came from a running bracket car that ran a best of 11.79 @ 114 (3340 lbs.) #1 Intake flowed 238.3 CFM @ .550" and went turbulent at .600"+ Here's what I did......Layed out the entry 1.100 x 2.250, opened pushrod pinch to .970" smoothly blending into curved wall. Next, I cut the head-bolt bulge even with the straight wall. I also blended away the "knob" at the base of 1/2" guide. These changes upped the flow numbers to 257.2 @ .500" and went turbulant above that. Next was the S/T. Looking at the bowl into the short turn, you'll notice the s/t engages approximately 3/8 the circumference of the bowl. I pushed the corners back to the top of the s/t, making it appear more like a water fall than the "Horse Shoe Falls". I hope that makes sense. In the middle of the s/t is pretty much the way it came, with only the corners pushed back to match it. If you feel where the s/t and floor meet, you can feel a slight peak (factory). I very lightly sand roll that area only to smooth the transition. With these changes, it now flows 263 @ .500", 270.2 @ .550" and 273.6 @ .600" I have since worked on the chambers some but, haven't checked them on the flow bench. I am also still undecided on the valve job, having measured and calculated and have come to the conclusion, I still don't like that flat chamber. These heads belong to a friend of mine so, I haven't cut on them like they were mine. I'd hate to ruin them since he's trusting me to make the car faster. I'm not sure any of this is going to help an ace porter like you but, that's about all I can do. What is your most common aproach to this head and what kind of flow are you getting from the SB Edelbrocks?
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: S/ST 3040]
#48061
12/29/07 02:52 PM
12/29/07 02:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
moderncylinder
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,752
detroit area
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im going off memory here,, but i was surprised that when i "plugged" a port into one of these heads it went from like 250 to 270 or so,,, i thought that port should flow way more than that,, so i did a valve job,, which is a std deal anyways,, and dropped the depth down about .020-.025 and then it flowed a little over or around 300. the port recognized all the port work then,, cause an out of the box head with a good valve job only picks up 5 or so.
jeff
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: S/ST 3040]
#48062
12/29/07 10:54 PM
12/29/07 10:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,515
So. Burlington, Vt.
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Brian, when you move that curved wall, do you make it more "S" shaped(scallop out more as you get closer to the bowl), or leave it pretty straight, and just move it over?
as for the slope of the roof.....how much of the angle would you say you eliminate?
1/2 of it? 3/4 of it? all of it?
the way i see the roof, with the head upside down, looking into the intake runner, the roof slopes down away from the straight wall.
but, way up by the guide, its also slopes away from the curved wall, leaving somewhat of a peak in the roof just before the guide boss.
when you carve out that curved wall, do you take it out all the way to the roof?
do you leave the roof as is on the curved side, or do you flatten it out(as in, raise it adjacent to the guide boss to diminish the "peak")?
Vic,
i understand what you're saying about the short turn, and thats actually one of the shapes i tried.....but i was still getting some turbulence.
Brian is saying the pinch area is a player for how the short turn behaves at high lifts with these heads. i have a set in the shop now that were previously ported by??? and i'm trying to fix them.
frankly.....if i can get them to be pretty steady at .650 lift without losing a bunch of flow.....i'll probably leave them like that.
how you got the ones you're working on to be steady at .700 is what i'm shooting for on these.
this set has already had the chamber walls pushed out some, which frankly i dont think is helping at the high lifts.
Brain, one more thing.....in your pics, it looks like the short turn, on the straight wall side, has been pulled back some.
as cast, these heads seem to have the short turn biased towards the curved wall....and it looks like you're kind of going the other way.....or am i not seeing it right??
Jeff, this set of heads i'm working with now has had the intake valves lowered at least .025.
i mean....these things sure "look", and feel(at the short turn) like they would be good right up past .700 lift......but they're just weak from .500 and up.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: Brian Hafliger]
#48065
12/30/07 10:28 AM
12/30/07 10:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Just a word of thanks guys...
This type of constructive posting has faded from this forum, at the publics' loss.
I do have aquestion tho, the intake plate, or intake manifold as opposed to a clay radius... I have not played with the clay because I no longer have access to a good bench, or a ton of interest in spending hours of time I no longer have. But, it's my feeling that resulting numbers can be skewed by playing with the shape and amount of clay. What kind of loss typically do you guys find in going from a hand done clay radius to a plate, and from a plate to a complete manifold? Brian, do you also use a carburetor too, or just the manifold? To what degree are you guys pushing to?
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Ported edelbrock heads.......pics
[Re: moper]
#48066
12/30/07 02:12 PM
12/30/07 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
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Quote:
Just a word of thanks guys...
This type of constructive posting has faded from this forum, at the publics' loss.
I do have aquestion tho, the intake plate, or intake manifold as opposed to a clay radius... I have not played with the clay because I no longer have access to a good bench, or a ton of interest in spending hours of time I no longer have. But, it's my feeling that resulting numbers can be skewed by playing with the shape and amount of clay. What kind of loss typically do you guys find in going from a hand done clay radius to a plate, and from a plate to a complete manifold? Brian, do you also use a carburetor too, or just the manifold? To what degree are you guys pushing to?
I have done some testing with the intake and carb bolted on...  It's VERY time consuming.
I have tried a couple of plates on sb chevy's and then used clay and there is almost no difference. If anything, the plate will be a tad better.
But I get stuff that has already been ported, and the plate does not fit the opening correctly, so clay is just faster.
On a high flowing head, with fast air speed I spend some time on the clay....but if you don't it can lead you astray.
Just for fun, I tried messing the clay up on a B1 original head a while back just to see where it starts to affect the flow...I had to almost square it off before it showed any negatives! But it was still 1/2 thick at that point.
I spend alot more time getting intake length's where they need to be for a particular combo than every last cfm. I have seen some pretty sizeable gains from under powered engines (compared to what they should make)by getting the intake length's right, and plenum correct.
And changing my seat cuts has brought around power in my stuff too. Like I said, I never seem to stop learning stuff....that's why I love this business.
Except when I'm beating my head on the flow bench like Dwayne's doing...those times are frustrating   
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