Moparts Main Index | READ - Info & Help Page | Moparts Sponsors | Tech Archive

Forums Calendar Active Threads Search Forum Help
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. #475499
09/21/09 04:45 PM 09/21/09 04:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
7
74RR Offline OP
top fuel
74RR  Offline OP
top fuel
7

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
I've got a 440 with a 509 cam = low vaccuum. Right now I have a Holly 750 w/vaccuum secondaries.
If I changed to a double pumper would give me better throttle response?
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 74RR] #475500
09/21/09 04:58 PM 09/21/09 04:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
During normal driving a vacuum holley should be no better for throttle response than a dp holley. I would be more concerned about your power valve opening during normal driving if your vacuum is that low.

If your throttle response is sluggish when you nail the throttle, then tuning is your problem. I would suggest investing in a tuning kit with jets, pump cams/shooters and secondary springs and making sure your power valves are suited for your application.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 74RR] #475501
09/21/09 05:15 PM 09/21/09 05:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
D
dulcich Offline
super stock
dulcich  Offline
super stock
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
Generally, yes it will be much more responsive with a DP. You want to run some converter with that cam too, and headers and gear.
-dulcich
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #475502
09/21/09 05:16 PM 09/21/09 05:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
7
74RR Offline OP
top fuel
74RR  Offline OP
top fuel
7

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
Ok,thanks for the reply. If I stand on it from a dead stop I can't even catch rubber.

Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: dulcich] #475503
09/21/09 05:17 PM 09/21/09 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
7
74RR Offline OP
top fuel
74RR  Offline OP
top fuel
7

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,165
Inver Grove Heights MN
Quote:

Generally, yes it will be much more responsive with a DP. You want to run some converter with that cam too, and headers and gear.
-dulcich


Convertor is a Dynamic 10"
Headers are Hedman cheapies and gearing is 3:91.
Thanks.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 74RR] #475504
09/21/09 05:22 PM 09/21/09 05:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Dodgem Offline
master
Dodgem  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,746
Ontario, Canada
Make sure it has no vacuum advance hooked up and has mechanical total 38 and all in by 2000. (or less RPMs) carb is not the problem.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Dodgem] #475505
09/21/09 05:23 PM 09/21/09 05:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,495
Oregon City, OR
Baxter61 Offline
top fuel
Baxter61  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,495
Oregon City, OR
put some timing in it, make sure your getting a solid squirt of fuel when the throttle is cracked, and check for vacuum leaks.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Dodgem] #475506
09/21/09 05:25 PM 09/21/09 05:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r Offline
super stock
Viol8r  Offline
super stock

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Initial Timing?
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 74RR] #475507
09/21/09 05:26 PM 09/21/09 05:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,074
Wichita Kansas
CH3NO2 Offline
super stock
CH3NO2  Offline
super stock

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,074
Wichita Kansas
what's the real compression on that 440?

Engine by DeTar http://www.kansasbadman.com
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 74RR] #475508
09/21/09 06:20 PM 09/21/09 06:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
D
dulcich Offline
super stock
dulcich  Offline
super stock
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 931
Quote:

Quote:

Generally, yes it will be much more responsive with a DP. You want to run some converter with that cam too, and headers and gear.
-dulcich


Convertor is a Dynamic 10"
Headers are Hedman cheapies and gearing is 3:91.
Thanks.



Only thing missing then is the double pumper.
What intake?
Even with low compression, it should roast the tires all the way through first with that combo.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Viol8r] #475509
09/21/09 07:36 PM 09/21/09 07:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
J
joedust451 Offline
super gas
joedust451  Offline
super gas
J

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
Quote:

Initial Timing?



I 2nd. this, most likely your dist. needs recurved.

75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA 97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot 71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105 78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: joedust451] #475510
09/21/09 09:24 PM 09/21/09 09:24 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
D
Dougsmopars Offline
top fuel
Dougsmopars  Offline
top fuel
D

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,295
dark side of the moon
I had a stock HP 440 1969 motor. Car had MP electronic dist and a factory six pac. Car run super with stock cam. Installed a 509 and car turned into a dog. Was a 4 speed and yes it would roast the tires but a lot less power then stock cam. We tried a lot of things including timing. Shop that installed the cam did it the old fashion way dot to dot but 4 degree advanced. I sold the car because it pissed me off. I've come to the conclusion that those 509 cams really need to be degreed in not just dot to dot.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Dougsmopars] #475511
09/21/09 10:11 PM 09/21/09 10:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT Offline
Management Trainee
1_WILD_RT  Offline
Management Trainee

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?

Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: 1_WILD_RT] #475512
09/22/09 07:43 AM 09/22/09 07:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
2 of my favorite topics, 750DP's and 509 cams. You should have enough gear and conert for the 509, now how about compression? If you don't have 10:1 it's not going to work well. The vacuum carb is terrible for a low compression 509 cammed car. (been there and it ran like poo poo) A DP will help but you're going to have to tune it. A 750 DP is way beeter IMO than the vacuum modle. What else is done to the motor? headers? intake?
FWIW my old 440 w/ 509 liked 38* total at 2400 no vac advance and you won't really feel it pull until 3k then watch out.

[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Mr.Yuck] #475513
09/22/09 08:04 AM 09/22/09 08:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,093
oberlin, Ohio
Rapid340 Offline
top fuel
Rapid340  Offline
top fuel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,093
oberlin, Ohio
I would consider two things (in this order).

1) check/recurve distributor for about 18-20 degrees initial timing, 38 total.

2) if still unhappy, advance the cam to 102-103.

1971 Factory Appearing Duster 340 11.000 @ 122 mph
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Mr.Yuck] #475514
09/22/09 08:16 AM 09/22/09 08:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,147
Central NC
gch Offline
master
gch  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,147
Central NC
I disagree on the throttle response with the vacuum secondary.
Take a big cam with poor low speed response and slam it with a double shot of gas.BOG.
I think the vacuum secondary would offer better response down low.He may need a different spring in the secondary to fine tune it.
Advancing the cam a few degrees and running 15-18 initial timing should make a huge difference.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: gch] #475515
09/22/09 11:32 AM 09/22/09 11:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
J
joedust451 Offline
super gas
joedust451  Offline
super gas
J

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
I've run a few .509s, i wanted the sound of that cam, but the 1st. thing i did was raise the compression with some decent FTs, either KB237s or TRW 2255s, my 1 dart i installed a TM7 & 850dp., had 3.91s, Cheapie 4500 stall, MP dizzy, MSD box, drop the cam dot to dot on all of them, had the int. timing around 16-17*, total was 38* & light springs, they all ran great, always had to run MTs, street tires never had a chance. Those cams do like compression/timing & stall.

75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA 97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot 71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105 78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: joedust451] #475516
09/22/09 11:51 AM 09/22/09 11:51 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
M
moper Offline
I Live Here
moper  Offline
I Live Here
M

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
This is normal for a 440 with too low a static ratio for the cam, and a cam that is very poorly made. What are the cylinder pressure readings? Blaming the carb is a hip-shot answer. Carb has nothing to do with it at this point, and vacuum carbs work off engine demand. If the enigne is wheezing, it wont work and tossing more fuel via accelerator pump at it wont help in the least.

Sorry, I edited it.. I missed a "4" in 440...lol

Last edited by moper; 09/22/09 11:55 AM.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: gch] #475517
09/22/09 03:17 PM 09/22/09 03:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Quote:

I disagree on the throttle response with the vacuum secondary.
Take a big cam with poor low speed response and slam it with a double shot of gas.BOG.
I think the vacuum secondary would offer better response down low.He may need a different spring in the secondary to fine tune it.
Advancing the cam a few degrees and running 15-18 initial timing should make a huge difference.


I should say that cam and a low compression engine and a vacuum isn't great. I had one on my old 73 440/509 combo. All it wanted to do was dump gas at w/ any PV. I just couldn't get it right. I went with a thermoquad and it really woke up the performance.

[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Sluggish 440 w/509 MP cam. [Re: Mr.Yuck] #475518
09/22/09 05:27 PM 09/22/09 05:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451 Offline
master
TonyS451  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
I too have witnessed first hand how poorly a 509 cam will work without the right mix of parts. Your gear is fine, but that cam likes every bit of a 3800 stall (and then some). It will also wake up with 20+ degrees of initial and 36-38 total timing. The vacumm secondary carb will work, but the dp will be snappier when in proper tune. That cam can make some good power when all your ducks are in a row.

2 kids and a dog

Moderated by  Al_Alguire, Hotwheelsjr, moparts, not_a_charger, RangerDan440, tboomer 
Privacy Policy · Forum Rules · Mark All Read Contact Us · Moparts




Moparts Main Index | READ - Info & Help Page | Moparts Sponsors | Tech Archive


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1