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Stock block strenght??? #467781
09/14/09 10:49 AM
09/14/09 10:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
J
jim sciortino Offline OP
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jim sciortino  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
Can a 400 block at 500ci with a 4.150 arm be expected to live in a honest 6oo-625hp N/A, 93 octane pumpgas engine with a sharp tune???

And if so, what would it need??? Aluminum caps, girdle, etc......

Or....

When will an iron aftermarket lowdeck block hit the stores???

And...

What ported iron head (Stage 5, Max Wedge, 915) for the stealth factor, would be the way to go???

Thanks.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467782
09/14/09 11:12 AM
09/14/09 11:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 351
michigan
64ssmax Offline
enthusiast
64ssmax  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 351
michigan
Quote:

Can a 400 block at 500ci with a 4.150 arm be expected to live in a honest 6oo-625hp N/A, 93 octane pumpgas engine with a sharp tune???

And if so, what would it need??? Aluminum caps, girdle, etc......

Or....

When will an iron aftermarket lowdeck block hit the stores???

And...

What ported iron head (Stage 5, Max Wedge, 915) for the stealth factor, would be the way to go???

Thanks.




I have been beating on a 1964 426 wedge block with a eagle 4.150 in my 66 satellite for 2 years.

I believe you need to stay under 1974 for the good 400 blocks.


"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end"
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467783
09/14/09 11:41 AM
09/14/09 11:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
My street/strip pump gas low compression 518 C.I. low deck 400 block has ductile iron main caps and ARP main studs, no fill. It made 612 hp and 644 ft lbs on California pump gas in 2003 when I first dyno tested it with ported big valve 906 heads. I have since changed the heads to Eddy MCH CNC ported RPM and crankshaft(4.25 to 4.300 to up the compression from 9.25 to 1 to 10:29 to 1), it now makes 720 hp and 740 FT lbs on Oregon pump gas. 300 to 400 runs and some street miles, less than 3000 miles or so My block is a 1976 that ended up needing four sleeves and the deck brazed up due to ablown head gasket, it was the only block I could find at that time I have seen and broken the man webs in several 426W and 440 blocks bot no low decks so far


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467784
09/14/09 12:14 PM
09/14/09 12:14 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
Thumperdart  Offline
I Live Here
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
I only have a 3.900 stroke(470 ci) but, I`ve been beating the snot out of this thing for almost 9 years w/fairly thin cyl walls and has seen 7500+ rpm`s. What`s funny is that when I talked to Robert Landy many years ago about my desired et`s and read him my sonic #`s he said I should turn it into a planter as it would never live.

Last edited by Thumperdart; 09/15/09 10:47 AM.

72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: Cab_Burge] #467785
09/14/09 12:26 PM
09/14/09 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
J
jim sciortino Offline OP
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jim sciortino  Offline OP
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J

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
Quote:

My street/strip pump gas low compression 518 C.I. low deck 400 block has ductile iron main caps and ARP main studs, no fill. It made 612 hp and 644 ft lbs on California pump gas in 2003 when I first dyno tested it with ported big valve 906 heads. I have since changed the heads to Eddy MCH CNC ported RPM and crankshaft(4.25 to 4.300 to up the compression from 9.25 to 1 to 10:29 to 1), it now makes 720 hp and 740 FT lbs on Oregon pump gas. 300 to 400 runs and some street miles, less than 3000 miles or so My block is a 1976 that ended up needing four sleeves and the deck brazed up due to ablown head gasket, it was the only block I could find at that time I have seen and broken the man webs in several 426W and 440 blocks bot no low decks so far


Good info..... thanks Cab.

The reason I ask is because we had a 440 block w/ stock caps, w/440-1s in the mid 90s that went low 9s @145+ @ 3280#, N/A. After about 80 or so passes and almost 4 years of street pounding, we took the engine apart only to find cracked webs. We were still driving it around like that for who knows how long.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467786
09/14/09 01:15 PM
09/14/09 01:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
S
supercomp Offline
master
supercomp  Offline
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S

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,441
Mo.
We have almost 600 1/4 mile passes on a 500 low deck with BCR caps and girdle
making 845 hp with no problems yet. These results may not be typical.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: supercomp] #467787
09/14/09 01:24 PM
09/14/09 01:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
T
theclutcher Offline
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theclutcher  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
Stronger than i thought from watching combos since the strokers came of age...

Last edited by theclutcher; 09/14/09 01:25 PM.
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: theclutcher] #467788
09/14/09 01:49 PM
09/14/09 01:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
bcrproducts Offline
super gas
bcrproducts  Offline
super gas

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
When we designed the modern BB Mopar cap and girdle system you see today it was for more than a few reasons. Many people said why bother when a World block is X dollars and you are going to have almost that into a stock block etc. Many of us are on low budget race mode and have friends that are machinists and have a few blocks laying around or have a build that suits a cap and girdle as far as expected HP. I have been pleasantly surprised at how much HP these motors will take at some of my customers HP levels. SuperComp is a great example of what can be achieved and still be reliable. A lot has to do with preparation and starting with a good solid foundation"sonic test every block no matter what year" I have seen late model blocks that are .050 thicker than early so don't go by the year thing at all. Another reason I am an advocate of this system is we all don't have the luxury of being able to get a World or Indy block at the corner store like some of you can. I live in Canada and to get a World block I pay close to twice what most of you do by the time all is said and done. Many of my customers are in the same boat as in my European customers. I have no idea how all these BB cores ended up in Finland Australia New Zealand the Netherlands Etc but there is a tremendous amount of racing going on in Europe that most of you are not even aware of. I calculated that 40% of my business was Outside the USA and Canada last year and those guys don't have the luxury of buy it at your local speed shop. Try shipping a block to Europe or Canada and see what the freight costs you. I have had UPS shipments cost me 40% of the value of the goods that UPS charges me in Brokerage fees. This is why I get upset sometimes when people say why waste your time with stock blocks. We have proven they can work and sometimes we just don't have any other options---Greg


www.bcrproducts.com

Last edited by bcrproducts; 09/14/09 01:51 PM.
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467789
09/14/09 02:36 PM
09/14/09 02:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,919
Long Island, NY
B
B1Ken Offline
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B1Ken  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,919
Long Island, NY
I have been running 511 B-1's for many years in Super Gas using 400 blocks with steel main caps. They make about 875 + HP and I've never had a block failure. I used to break cranks but since I switched to an ATI damper (from a Fluidamper) I haven't broken one.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: bcrproducts] #467790
09/14/09 03:18 PM
09/14/09 03:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56 Offline
super stock
mac56  Offline
super stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
Quote:

When we designed the modern BB Mopar cap and girdle system you see today it was for more than a few reasons. Many people said why bother when a World block is X dollars and you are going to have almost that into a stock block etc. Many of us are on low budget race mode and have friends that are machinists and have a few blocks laying around or have a build that suits a cap and girdle as far as expected HP. I have been pleasantly surprised at how much HP these motors will take at some of my customers HP levels. SuperComp is a great example of what can be achieved and still be reliable. A lot has to do with preparation and starting with a good solid foundation"sonic test every block no matter what year" I have seen late model blocks that are .050 thicker than early so don't go by the year thing at all. Another reason I am an advocate of this system is we all don't have the luxury of being able to get a World or Indy block at the corner store like some of you can. I live in Canada and to get a World block I pay close to twice what most of you do by the time all is said and done. Many of my customers are in the same boat as in my European customers. I have no idea how all these BB cores ended up in Finland Australia New Zealand the Netherlands Etc but there is a tremendous amount of racing going on in Europe that most of you are not even aware of. I calculated that 40% of my business was Outside the USA and Canada last year and those guys don't have the luxury of buy it at your local speed shop. Try shipping a block to Europe or Canada and see what the freight costs you. I have had UPS shipments cost me 40% of the value of the goods that UPS charges me in Brokerage fees. This is why I get upset sometimes when people say why waste your time with stock blocks. We have proven they can work and sometimes we just don't have any other options---Greg


www.bcrproducts.com



I hear ya brother on the cost to get things to the great white north.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: B1Ken] #467791
09/14/09 03:20 PM
09/14/09 03:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56 Offline
super stock
mac56  Offline
super stock

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
Quote:

I have been running 511 B-1's for many years in Super Gas using 400 blocks with steel main caps. They make about 875 + HP and I've never had a block failure. I used to break cranks but since I switched to an ATI damper (from a Fluidamper) I haven't broken one.



It is good to have you back Ken. Your real world posts have been missed by me anyway.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: Cab_Burge] #467792
09/14/09 08:55 PM
09/14/09 08:55 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*!  Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
Quote:

... It made 612 hp and 644 ft lbs on California pump gas in 2003 ... it now makes 720 hp and 740 FT lbs on Oregon pump gas.




Oregon pump gas will beat California pump gas every time. Thanks for the proof.

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: jim sciortino] #467793
09/14/09 09:04 PM
09/14/09 09:04 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*!  Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
Quote:

... After about 80 or so passes and almost 4 years of street pounding, we took the engine apart only to find cracked webs. We were still driving it around like that for who knows how long.




A 1/2" or thicker girdle will almost eliminate the mode of vibration that places the main saddles in tension. Add thick cylinders and you should be good to go. Don't buy the 3/16" aluminum girdle I saw on ebay, that thing is a friggin joke.

bcrproducts :
Have you had any reports of block failures with your girdle system installed?

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: @#$%&*!] #467794
09/14/09 10:00 PM
09/14/09 10:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
bcrproducts Offline
super gas
bcrproducts  Offline
super gas

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
I have had no feedback of block failure as of yet.If I was lying someone on this forum would speak up and make me look foolish. I have always been upfront and honest with my customers. We are going on three years with this product and several hundred sales so that is a pretty good indicator of how well this system works. Has there been failures that I do not know about --likely-- but even World and Indy motors blow up from time to time that's racing.

Cheers --Greg
www.bcrproducts.com

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: @#$%&*!] #467795
09/14/09 10:14 PM
09/14/09 10:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,007
Bend,OR USA
Quote:

Quote:

... It made 612 hp and 644 ft lbs on California pump gas in 2003 ... it now makes 720 hp and 740 FT lbs on Oregon pump gas.




Oregon pump gas will beat California pump gas every time. Thanks for the proof.


Don't forget the CNC ported Eddy heads and the increase C.I. amd the increase in compression ratio as well as our(Oregon) now diluted 10% ethanol pump gas BTW, I did the last dyno test on non ethanol 93 octane pump gas Which is available here in Bend


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: Cab_Burge] #467796
09/15/09 10:28 AM
09/15/09 10:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
M
moper Offline
I Live Here
moper  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
I think so long as detonation is not present and the machining and caps are good material you will have no trouble over time at that level. You could run a gircle but I personally don't think you need one for 650hp so long as it doesnt detonate but insurance sometimes helps you sleep att night. Sonic test any core block. The years and "230" myths are just that...


Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: Cab_Burge] #467797
09/15/09 01:15 PM
09/15/09 01:15 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*!  Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

... It made 612 hp and 644 ft lbs on California pump gas in 2003 ... it now makes 720 hp and 740 FT lbs on Oregon pump gas.




Oregon pump gas will beat California pump gas every time. Thanks for the proof.


Don't forget the CNC ported Eddy heads and the increase C.I. amd the increase in compression ratio as well as our(Oregon) now diluted 10% ethanol pump gas BTW, I did the last dyno test on non ethanol 93 octane pump gas Which is available here in Bend




In the interest of brevity I did some editing

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: mac56] #467798
09/15/09 01:50 PM
09/15/09 01:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
440Jim Offline
I Live Here
440Jim  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,917
NC
Quote:

Quote:

I have been running 511 B-1's for many years in Super Gas using 400 blocks with steel main caps. They make about 875 + HP and I've never had a block failure. I used to break cranks but since I switched to an ATI damper (from a Fluidamper) I haven't broken one.



It is good to have you back Ken. Your real world posts have been missed by me anyway.




Ken gave me the info that gave me the confidence to build my 511 low deck in a factory 400 block. I decided to use aluminum main caps from BEST Machine. Let's see, this block has 437 passes on it. So far so good, and it is over 600 hp going 9.30s at 3200 lbs.


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: 440Jim] #467799
09/15/09 01:59 PM
09/15/09 01:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger Offline
master
RemCharger  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have been running 511 B-1's for many years in Super Gas using 400 blocks with steel main caps. They make about 875 + HP and I've never had a block failure. I used to break cranks but since I switched to an ATI damper (from a Fluidamper) I haven't broken one.



It is good to have you back Ken. Your real world posts have been missed by me anyway.




Ken gave me the info that gave me the confidence to build my 511 low deck in a factory 400 block. I decided to use aluminum main caps from BEST Machine. Let's see, this block has 437 passes on it. So far so good, and it is over 600 hp going 9.30s at 3200 lbs.


Jim, you mean like 250hp over 600....?

Re: Stock block strenght??? [Re: RemCharger] #467800
09/15/09 02:35 PM
09/15/09 02:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 325
Greenville, WI
B
Big B Offline
enthusiast
Big B  Offline
enthusiast
B

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 325
Greenville, WI
I have a 493/440 that makes 740hp on pump gas. I run the hell out of it. Stock block, short fill, and aluminum caps. 7000rpm shifts. 6 years and still going strong. About 3000 street miles per year.

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