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40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
#450258
08/25/09 11:53 PM
08/25/09 11:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 435
Austin, TX
lunacy
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 435
Austin, TX
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I have an image in my head and just got through with a photoshop of the beginnings of the truck I want to build. I haven't taken on a project on such a heavy vehicle, nor a frame swap which I am thinking this will probably need. My goal is to keep it a 1 ton or better to haul a goose neck if need be. I want it to look like a heavy truck, even if it doesn't retain the 2 ton frame and rear end, I don't think you can drop the stock frame and suspension that much. I know a lot of you guys have done similar things, just kind of wanted some opinions on where to start, and even where to find a good truck to buy. I'm scouring the farms around here, and there's not many old trucks still around and the ones that are are all Fords and Chevys. How rare are these?  Found the pic of the original truck on the net, I hope whoever owns it doesn't hate me for modifying it, but it's one of the few good images out there.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450259
08/26/09 06:33 PM
08/26/09 06:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Lots of looks, but no answers. I'll toss in my  The original drivetrain, frame and suspension was designed for low speeds and heavy weights over uneven terrain. It didn't accelerate, steer or brake in a way I'd consider safe out on modern highways. To make it into a 1 ton tow vehicle, I'd suggest getting a late model heavy truck chassis and mounting that body on it. That would make more sense than changing the steering, brakes, drivetrain, and living with the current suspension or trying to update that too, especially if you want to lower it. By the time you are done, you will have changed everything but the frame, and that will require major modification to handle all the other stuff. A complete swap will be engineered to work together too.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450261
08/26/09 09:03 PM
08/26/09 09:03 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Interesting, there is a similar vintage non-MoPar for sale on my way home. Real nice shape, at leaset from the road driving by at 35.
Thought about turning it into a "vintage" RV. Only thing I can think f that would come close to the right look would be an Airstream trailer. Of course a modern drivetrain and chassis is part of the idea, but I don't have that kind of money to blow on a project like that.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450262
08/26/09 11:19 PM
08/26/09 11:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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Quote:
That's what I am thinking too, a full frame swap. Will a regular 1 ton Dodge frame and cummins motor be wide enough and will the motor even fit or should I look into a heavier truck chassis.
Well, I'd suggest measuring possible donor vehicles.
The important stuff is from your feet forward.
Front track, Distance from front axle centerline forward to front of motor, and to front of radiator, distance from axle to firewall, and find out about lowering if that's the look you want. Armed with that, you should next check into possible bodys.
Bigdad's post over in the Truck section would be a good place to start, lots of pictures and info about bigger trucks and meets.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5177444
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: RodStRace]
#450263
08/27/09 10:55 PM
08/27/09 10:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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Hey, I have some info about this one!
My 50 was a 2 ton dump truck. We bought the truck from the cab forward, and disassembled it and junked the original frame.
In the begining, we attempted to put this cab on a 77 1/2 ton long box 2 wd pickup frame. The nose of the 50 is 6" to 8" shorter then the 77, that puts the firewall 6" forward. Also, the relationship between the front tire centerline and the radiator position is also shorter on the 50 compaired to the 77 frame. The cab is also shorter on the 50. The lower you go on the frame, the worst the porportions get.
If you cut the frame horns off the 77 frame and shift the nose of the 50 towards the rear a couple inches, with smaller front tires (15" wheels) they can still be fit into the front portion of the 50 fenders. You will have to modify the fenders and wheel arches to look right with the smaller tire/wheel combo. Then you need to cut a hole in the firewall as wide as the whatever engine your using and set it back into the cab about 6". That takes up a lot of floor space, puts the new firewall at the back edge of the dash, the width of your engine clearance cut. The rear cab mounts can be moved forward on the 77 frame to match up with the 50 cab, and the box/bed will sit 6" more forward then it did with the 77 cab. Also expect to do some modification to the floor pan of the cab, originally the 50s cab floors are nearly flat, because the engine/trans sat low. The 77 frames drop under the cab but the 50s frames were straight, to get that 50 cab low, you will have to cut the floor under the seat and at the firewall to get down to the frame then build a trans tunnel to clear the trans. I think I still have some poor pictures showing us trying to shift the cab and front clip around so we didn't have to cut the firewall. Then a few more pictures after we cut out the firewall and most of the floor, in an attempt to lower the truck. Really ugly, and not a project for the weak at heart.
I ended up putting that 50 cab and clip on an 80 Dodge 4x4 short box frame. I raised the cab 5" off the frame, and welded the firewall back in. The engine (rear of the valve covers and sb dist) sits under the cab a couple inches. I ended up making front fenders from just below the top curve all the way to the bottom and narrowing and rearching the fender extensions. I also moved the wheel well openings 3" rearward. I filled the gap under the cab with running boards. My pickup box is hand fabricated box sides with the 50 rear fenders and the front of the 50 box narrowed 2". The tailgate is home made and the box floor is 1/8" steel. The cab is bassically stock except for the dash, which was home made because the original dash and guages were all rusted junk. The seats were whatever was on hand at the time. This truck has been together for 7 years and just got a fresh 360 last spring. The frame and drive train are standard issue 80 1/2 ton 4x4 stuff, 360 4v, 727, full time transfercase, 9 1/4 rear suregrip, Dana 44 front both with 3:55 gears.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: poorboy]
#450266
08/27/09 11:01 PM
08/27/09 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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What we brought home. Notice the tires on the trailer are 225 x 15", see how large the fender extensions are and how far up on the fenders they go. Gene
Last edited by poorboy; 08/27/09 11:05 PM.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450268
08/28/09 10:05 PM
08/28/09 10:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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Quote:
nice looking truck, that is a lot of fabrication to get it all to fit on a newer chassis. Do you think it would have been easier starting off with a 1/2 ton cab instead of a 2 ton?
Thanks, the truck looks better now then in the pictures (imho lol), I refreshed the blue paint and painted the top of the running boards blue as well this last spring. As I understand, Dodge used the same cab for all non-military trucks, 1/2 ton through semi tractor.
Do you have any pictures of the original frame/front suspension or where the stock engine sits.
Sorry, no pictures of the original frame/suspension, it was big and ugly and wasn't in our plans. The original engine was a flathead inline 6 (a v8 wasn't available until mid year 54) and there is a 2"-3" indentation in the firewall where it sat. The flathead sat almost centered over the axle.
The width of the tires and frame looks like it lined up pretty good on your truck, any problems with that?
The 80 4x4 suspension is a bit wider then an 80 2x4 would be, but even then, I narrowed the fender extensions about 2" per side. If you didn't have to modify the extensions openings for the smaller tire size, you might be able to just slide the extensions in a bit. There really isn't much fender below the top crown on the original fenders, those extensions are huge.
It sounds like getting a modern engine/trans to fit the lower body is going to be the hardest part, at least getting it to fit and still being able to actually sit comfortably in the cab. If I wasn't trying to lower this thing so much keeping the straight axle front end and fabbing up mounts for a modern motor/trans would be the easiest route. Although, maybe taking a independent front suspension chassis and moving the motor forward to keep the wheels lined up would work.
Actually, these cabs might fit a Dakota frame much better then they fit on the full size truck frame, and the engine sits above the suspension on a Dakota, where it sits behind the suspension on full size trucks. Also, these cabe have a lot of overhead room, I have a 4 or 5" pedistal under the seats to get me confortable as far as window hight, I like my arm resting on the window sill when I drive. There is at least 12" above my head to the roof, I'm 6'1" and sit pretty much upright in the seat. These cabs are short front to back, but are pretty wide and real tall. Channeling the floor would not be out of the question, set the cab at whatever hight you want over the frame, raise the floor to clear, adjust the seat pedistal to get you where you want to be.
By going with a Dakota frame, you get all the advantages of modern, and can still use it as a truck, and the engine would be in a better relationship to the front wheels. Aftermarket support is pretty good with a Dakota frame.
Sorry for all the rambling, I appreciate the info on your truck, it makes my ideas seem possible.
Hope this works. Gene
Last edited by poorboy; 08/28/09 10:11 PM.
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450270
08/30/09 10:23 PM
08/30/09 10:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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I've not seen any replacement sheet metal for these trucks, but haven't really looked very hard. Running a welding shop helps.... This body style began in 48 and continued until 53. A 54 has enough changes that most things on the cab will not interchange. 54 started the curved windshield, and that changed again in mid 55, but before then, all the glass except the optional cab rear corners were flat glass and can be cut by a compident local glass cutter. The 54 and early 55 windshield is hard to locate and expensive, the late 55 & up is much more commonm and easily available, and much cheaper. 48-53 corner windows are the same and are available often on ebay. 54, 55, & 56 corner windows are also the same, but differ from the earlier trucks. 57 began the curved rear window. www.robertsmotorparts.com has all the glass rubber available (as well as others) and they also have window channels, and weatherstripping and several other parts for this era truck. They also know their parts and these trucks.  Pictured is a 54 Dodge pickup, notice the straight windshiels posts, compair to the windshield of my 50 (48-53) is 2 piece flat glass. The mid 55 & 56 have a dogleg in the windshield post and the glass wraps around the corner. The windshield is the easiest way to determine if the truck is a pre 54, or a late 55 & up. Gene
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450272
08/31/09 10:51 PM
08/31/09 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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Welcome to my addition.  If the flathead still turns over you may get some coin out of it from the guys over at the HAMB board, or a restorer, or on some rat rod boards. We got $250 for a running 46 flathead that smoked. If its stuck, its weight (and a lot of weight) and I have not heard of anyone being interested in those frames. If that old flathead has a milti carbed intake or split exhaust manifolds, they would be worth pulling, they would be worth more then the engine. So what are your plans? And I'm waiting for the pictures. Gene
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450274
08/31/09 11:49 PM
08/31/09 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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Yep, mine looked just about like that too. Funny thing, there was bondo in the front edge of my driver door filling a dent that must have been the same size as the dent in your door. Both my fenders had that rust hole in it there above the fender extension too, that is where the plate that holds the fender to the cab sits, its about 4" wide and sits horizontal so it can hold anything that gets up there.
You know, if you really wanted to use that truck to pull a 5th wheel trailer, can you replace your axles with ones from a newer truck and keep your old frame? If your springs are OK use them, or maybe you can modify the spring brackets that match your axle. Then install the drivetrain of choice, upgrade as needed. Gene
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: lunacy]
#450279
09/02/09 02:40 AM
09/02/09 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,963
ID/MT
Cheeto
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,963
ID/MT
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Does a Class C motorhome have a regular frame? Something like that might be a good starting point and the 70s Dodges are plentiful.
Cheeto
It's not perfect.
It's not correct.
It's not yours!
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Re: 40's 1 1/2 or 2 ton lowered where to start.
[Re: Cheeto]
#450280
09/03/09 10:30 PM
09/03/09 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
poorboy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,538
Freeport IL USA
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Quote:
Does a Class C motorhome have a regular frame? Something like that might be a good starting point and the 70s Dodges are plentiful.
No, that is a unibody van frame. The front 1/2 is a box frame, bolted to the standard unibody van undercarage. That van undercarage goes back to behind the rear axle to the normal van rear crossmember where the rear bumper would be bolted on, then they weld the motorhome rear frame rails to the rear of the van's bumper box and use the floor to support the frame.
I have repaired many of these messes when people try to pull huge tounge weight trailers with them. They last for a several years, then the rear camper frame, hitch and all begins to sag. I have to go back in and try to rebrace the van bumper box and rear camper frame so they can still pull their trailer.
Go ahead and stick your head under the rear of your camper, about 4' from the back bumper you can see where they scabbed on the "frame" to the rear section of the cross box. Gene
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