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Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! #448522
08/24/09 09:35 PM
08/24/09 09:35 PM
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Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Seen the other guys talking about exploding intakes, so I though Id better ask here.
Could this be a problem on the MP Hemi Cross Ram?
These intakes are pretty expensive, and haven't been in production awhile..

Max Maniac
I would like to know some details of that "pop off Valve".
And no replacement parts to buy. Do you know what kind of pressure were looking at? Also I assume the intake has been threaded, or a bolt jammed with holes drilled around it correct? How does the seal seat? is there a O-ring or receiver grooves?
I would love to see some pictures disassembled etc. Me and My crew chief would be grateful for any info guys...


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Bob_Coomer] #448523
08/24/09 10:31 PM
08/24/09 10:31 PM
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Max Maniac
I would like to know some details of that "pop off Valve".
And no replacement parts to buy. Do you know what kind of pressure were looking at? Also I assume the intake has been threaded, or a bolt jammed with holes drilled around it correct? How does the seal seat? is there a O-ring or receiver grooves?
I would love to see some pictures disassembled etc. Me and My crew chief would be grateful for any info guys...


If I can get to the garage sometime tomorrow I can get some pics of the set up. This was done to both of my intakes by Bob George. There is a bolt through the intake with holes drilled around it and they are sealed with rubber o rings glued to the cover. It has worked for me so far maybe BG can respond to the pressure settings since he installed them but when I took one apart I kind of went by feel on how tight they should be. I never used them or had a problem when I was running the oe cross ram but have heard stories of them bursting open also.

PS: Looks like a really sharp crew chief ya got there

Russ

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Bob_Coomer] #448524
08/24/09 10:38 PM
08/24/09 10:38 PM
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Big plenum sheet metals do it too, and it’s ugly. Nitrous backfires are the worst, but sometimes cranking they pop too. We use plastic bolts on the top plates with two long steel bolts in the corners that have a plastic nut ran down against the top plate so that if it blows it can only rise about a half an inch. It breaks the plastic bolts and strips the plastic nuts then stops against the top of the long steel bolts. That’s all it needs to depressurize the blast without hurting the manifold, butterflies, or blowing out the gaskets. Unfortunately, though I know its way more effective than burst panels in dealing with backfires from personal experience, burst panels are still required to be legal. I’ve popped manifolds in the car and on the dyno numerous times and panels don’t save anything. The plastic bolts let the whole top plate hop up and instantly kill the pressure.

I've also seen the top plate bolts have small springs that make the whole top plate a spring loaded burst panel.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: dthemi] #448525
08/25/09 08:53 AM
08/25/09 08:53 AM
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We do not recommend any type of lifting of the manifold top or burst plates.The idea of the blow-off valve or pop-off valve has been around for ages.You want to relieve the pressure of a back fire but at the same time quickly close to shut of oxygen so that you don't have a fire that can cause a lot of damage or loss.We make our own valves but Wilson manifolds also make a nice set as well as Wieand and other blower mfg's.Usually you do not have an issue with the factory X-ram or -25Indy unless your having a carb bleed over issue that puddles gas in the plenum.We install the valves on the front and back corners of the manifold where the flat area is in the plenum.We have seen a few very bad explosions and resulting fires from people flooding the manifold with gas and trying to start the engine or from needle valves bleeding.The pop-off or"Snezzer Valve" is cheap insurance and gives peace of mind to those who have had bad experience with back fire.We run the manifolds with and without the valves with great success.The tension on the valve needs only be enough to keep the plate in contact with the sealing o-ring as the suction or draw of the manifold is always inward.The bad thing about back fire is that if you use the carb to control it you risk the chance of bending the throttle plates.As mentioned keeping the throttle partialy open helps prevent the risk of a manifold blow up but does little to smother a fire.A valve opening and reliving the pressure of the backfire and closing,shutting of the oxygen supply with the throttle blades closed is as good as having no problem at all.If your having issues with backfireing look for and correct it is my best advise. BTW my comments are for large plenum manifolds on gasolene bracket cars and not all encompassing for ie:nitrous,turbo,supercharged or fuel engines.They tend to have minds of their own

Last edited by B G Racing; 08/25/09 12:19 PM.
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: B G Racing] #448526
08/25/09 12:32 PM
08/25/09 12:32 PM
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These are nice looking. I may have to install a pair of these on my Rat Roaster!
Thanks Bob.

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=55&added=55


Mark



1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Hemi Allstate] #448527
08/30/09 07:57 PM
08/30/09 07:57 PM
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Bob, here are the pics of the sneezer set up.

5451404-sneezervalve1.jpg (245 downloads)
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448528
08/30/09 07:57 PM
08/30/09 07:57 PM
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5451406-sneezervalve2.jpg (172 downloads)
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448529
08/30/09 07:58 PM
08/30/09 07:58 PM
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3 final one

5451407-sneezervalve3.jpg (172 downloads)
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448530
08/30/09 08:02 PM
08/30/09 08:02 PM

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i ran my 440-25 crossram all day today with 7 passes with not 1 backfire.the trick is no gas before firing it up warm.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! #448531
08/30/09 08:11 PM
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Quote:

i ran my 440-25 crossram all day today with 7 passes with not 1 backfire.the trick is no gas before firing it up warm.




I agree but that is not how the 2nd intake I had made a big bang. The 2nd one happened when the car was running and I was driving through the pits. I later did find a carb issue that was dumping fuel so in case that ever happens again I have some insurance I can still race that weekend.


Russ

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448532
08/30/09 08:19 PM
08/30/09 08:19 PM
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Rock Springs
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were can I get one of those at Max? Or do you have two of them?


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448533
08/30/09 08:22 PM
08/30/09 08:22 PM

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Quote:

Quote:

i ran my 440-25 crossram all day today with 7 passes with not 1 backfire.the trick is no gas before firing it up warm.




I agree but that is not how the 2nd intake I had made a big bang. The 2nd one happened when the car was running and I was driving through the pits. I later did find a carb issue that was dumping fuel so in case that ever happens again I have some insurance I can still race that weekend.


Russ




Russ, i understand fully, these intakes are a little tricky at first but once you get the jetting, metering rods, and most importantly the fuel bowls correctly adjusted, fuel psi at no more than 6.5, your golden.
i can understand being gun shy after exploding 2 but really look over your carbs thoroughly before firing it up. just 3 pumps at the beginning of the day to start it up after that i dont touch the gas again.
hope this helps.
Gary Jacobs talked me through a float level problem today and got me my best et ever with my NSS car. wheels came up so high today, i uncovered my primary jets totally giving me a wicked hesitation with wheels up, car came crashing down till the car leveled out and then picked back right back up.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Bob_Coomer] #448534
08/30/09 08:28 PM
08/30/09 08:28 PM

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It is the cheapest insurance that you can have. I use the Wilson valves. But many other setups work fine. Put it on and you know you won't blow the top off your intake...

5451481-PRP1.jpg (154 downloads)
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! #448535
08/30/09 08:28 PM
08/30/09 08:28 PM
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Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i ran my 440-25 crossram all day today with 7 passes with not 1 backfire.the trick is no gas before firing it up warm.




I agree but that is not how the 2nd intake I had made a big bang. The 2nd one happened when the car was running and I was driving through the pits. I later did find a carb issue that was dumping fuel so in case that ever happens again I have some insurance I can still race that weekend.


Russ




Russ, i understand fully, these intakes are a little tricky at first but once you get the jetting, metering rods, and most importantly the fuel bowls correctly adjusted, fuel psi at no more than 6.5, your golden.
i can understand being gun shy after exploding 2 but really look over your carbs thoroughly before firing it up. just 3 pumps at the beginning of the day to start it up after that i dont touch the gas again.
hope this helps.
Gary Jacobs talked me through a float level problem today and got me my best et ever with my NSS car. wheels came up so high today, i uncovered my primary jets totally giving me a wicked hesitation with wheels up, car came crashing down till the car leveled out and then picked back right back up.




Everyone sometime or another has a needle stick open, its just a matter of time...

Maxx
I was thinking, the way this Cross ram is set up, It would probably need two, cause each side it kinda isolated.. Those Wilson's look trick, but $75 each, and I need two...


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Bob_Coomer] #448536
08/30/09 09:39 PM
08/30/09 09:39 PM
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Quote:

were can I get one of those at Max? Or do you have two of them?





I have 2 on each intake. I suggest to pm Bob George as he is the one that put those together and installed them. He may be able to send you the parts or tell you where to get them.

Russ

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: max_maniac] #448537
08/31/09 11:27 AM
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This is the first I've heard about this problem. Sounds like a good idea though.


Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: mr_340] #448538
08/31/09 12:14 PM
08/31/09 12:14 PM
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Quote:

This is the first I've heard about this problem. Sounds like a good idea though.








1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Hemi Allstate] #448539
08/31/09 12:40 PM
08/31/09 12:40 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

This is the first I've heard about this problem. Sounds like a good idea though.








Ask Russ or Kyle Reasbeck if it's a good idea.Kyle's explosion caused a fire that could have be very serious had he not been prepared with a extinguisher handy.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: B G Racing] #448540
08/31/09 01:09 PM
08/31/09 01:09 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This is the first I've heard about this problem. Sounds like a good idea though.








Ask Russ or Kyle Reasbeck if it's a good idea.Kyle's explosion caused a fire that could have be very serious had he not been prepared with a extinguisher handy.




Looks like they are a little cheaper if I buy two!
One front and one rear eh Bob?

Mark



1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: B G Racing] #448541
08/31/09 02:35 PM
08/31/09 02:35 PM
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This post is directed to Bob George... Is this potential problem isolated more to the Rat Roaster style of Cross Ram Intake ? The reason for this question is that I just installed a new M/P Cross Ram Intake ( M/P part number p5007534 ) with the two top access panels on my 472 Crate Engine. It will be a street car only. This talk of intake explosions has me concerned enough to look into the Wilson Manifold Pressure Relief Valves. Would it be necessary for this later style of intake ? If I do install two ( 2 ) of these pressure relief valves, where would be the best location on the intake to mount these valves ?
Thank you in advance for your response...

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: moparphillie] #448542
08/31/09 02:49 PM
08/31/09 02:49 PM
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That deal with Kyle was a scary, scary, evening. There was a heck of a fire going.....and a garage full of race cars and collector MoPars. It could have been real bad. We had an extinguisher, and there were some guys around. But, if something like that had happened inside an enclosed trailer....it makes my blood run cold.

I think on that deal part of the problem is that the MSD box had gone bad, and caused it to cough up through. Whatever the cause, it was a bad deal. He has the intake working well, now, though, and the car idles and drives as well as your new 300. But, he does have the Wilson sneeze valves on it, now.

Bob could probably answer this better than I, but I think the Indy intake and the old Rat Roaster had the most problems with this. I've heard of it happening with the regular cross ram, but not very often. I think the fact that the new MP crossram has core plugs on each end would be helpful. I think the older ones, especially the Diamond Elkins deals could do it if you weren't careful.

I use the new MP crossram with no issues, but I don't street drive it. It doesn't idle around much, or spend a lot of time where it could load up and cause an incident.

Bob, I'd love to see you put a cross ram on that 65, a set of headlights, and get out there with us. I understand why you are hesitant, but you belong out there with us Geezers. That car has NSS written all over it.


"Old age and treachery trumps youth and enthusiasm, every time!"

East Central Director / Chrysler Power Magazine

www.reasbeckracing.webs.com
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Steve1118] #448543
08/31/09 03:13 PM
08/31/09 03:13 PM
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Poppa J, Chime in here. Was yours a crossram or the Indy style??

I remember the first one I saw was on Teuton's car several years ago. They had it fabricated by Mark Oswald.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: moparphillie] #448544
08/31/09 03:38 PM
08/31/09 03:38 PM
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Quote:

This post is directed to Bob George... Is this potential problem isolated more to the Rat Roaster style of Cross Ram Intake ? The reason for this question is that I just installed a new M/P Cross Ram Intake ( M/P part number p5007534 ) with the two top access panels on my 472 Crate Engine. It will be a street car only. This talk of intake explosions has me concerned enough to look into the Wilson Manifold Pressure Relief Valves. Would it be necessary for this later style of intake ? If I do install two ( 2 ) of these pressure relief valves, where would be the best location on the intake to mount these valves ?
Thank you in advance for your response...


It is not necessarry on the factory X-rams,hemi or wedge that have the expansion/core plugs and the manifolds are more rigid. Large open plenum box style manifolds like Indy and Rat roasters with areas that can puddle fuel are more prone to blow apart.Indy uses the small bolts for just such reason and large open manifolds with no center connecting rib top to bottom with out any attachment bolts are also prone to pop.Letting the top lift causes the attaching bolts and thread bores to break,but the fire after the explosion is what worrys me.Also letting the top "lift" can do a lot of other damage especially if it pulls a fuel line off and the pump feeds the fire.In Kyle's incident the hood was open and the manifold top as well as carbs launched and ended up on the rad support.Only quick thinking and appropate action prevented it from being a disaster.And Russ's in trailer pop could have been the same.That anyones comments that it will or never happen to them doesn' need insurance since they will never have an accident.But to answer the question about the stock factory style including the new MP X-ram,no you don't need the "Snezzer"valve.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: B G Racing] #448545
08/31/09 07:46 PM
08/31/09 07:46 PM
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So do we need two of these valves ?? or is one sufficient on the top lid between the carbs on the indy inline.

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Frito] #448546
08/31/09 08:25 PM
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Quote:

I remember the first one I saw was on Teuton's car several years ago. They had it fabricated by Mark Oswald.




This one?

5453398-TeutonIntake.JPG (205 downloads)

Floyd Lippencott IV
Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: mr_340] #448547
08/31/09 09:12 PM
08/31/09 09:12 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

I remember the first one I saw was on Teuton's car several years ago. They had it fabricated by Mark Oswald.




This one?


YEP!!!

Re: Hemi Cross Ram intake Explosions?? !!!Max Maniac!!! [Re: Frito] #448548
09/01/09 12:05 AM
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Yes the night i almost burned the garage down while blowing up my intake sucked. Though there were other contributing factors, i feel it was also partially self inflicted as we had it loaded with fuel. I'm not sure if the (2) valves i have on my intake would expel enough pressure or not i figured it sure as heck can't hurt. Like bob said, the problem isnt the initial explosion (although it sucks to damage stuff) its the fire afterwards. You can't shut the fuel off fast enough. In my case the intake landed upside down on the core support after it ripped the fuel line off and dented the factory steel hood (as it was up) I do like the idea of the plastic bolts as well. I think the INDY is the most prone. We had a rat roaster on my dad's car before and i started it ever since i was 8 yrs old. It'd hiccup through the carbs but never pop. I really think its all due to those way too short bolts INDY give to attach it. 1/4" and on average only 2-3 threads are engaged..not even 1D. The top can come off pretty easily. I put studs in mine now and it did hiccup once , never popped the valves just came up through the carbs, like you'd expect it to. I realize there are exceptions that will split the intake if full of gas and powerful enough, but i feel these are far and few between. The valves MAY not be necessary, but to spend 140 to save $2000 (1200 dollar intake and 800 in carbs, not to mention time) is a no brainer.

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