Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: cogen80]
#432450
08/09/09 06:03 PM
08/09/09 06:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually the Alterktion was made to improve handling AND header clearance.
where did you get that from? it was built to handle and with the weight savings and header clearance along with how well it works, its found its way to the drag strip.
IIRC when I first talked to him, what led him down the path of the alterkion was the issues with installing big blocks in A-bodies. Hence the name of his site. One of the concerns he had with a big block in an A-body is headers. At the time TTI's were sort of new. And even they are tight. This would be 1997/98??
At that time he was trying to decide on a computer suspension program to buy and design his first alterkion. His idea was to design it right with full attention to handling. And to have it modular for various motor and handling upgrades to boot.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: HealthServices]
#432453
08/09/09 06:31 PM
08/09/09 06:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
This would be 1997/98??
Tech from 10 years ago.
Sorry if it seems I'm trying to bag on his work. I'm not trying to. I'm sure it is good and in many ways better than stock. Like many things it is a compromise, and you make the best with what you have currently.
The suspension geometry tech hasn't changed. Bump steer, scrub radius, camber change, roll center, roll center change, caster change, anti dive... Same now and same then.
...These are good issues/topic/questions to bring to discussion.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: autoxcuda]
#432454
08/09/09 06:45 PM
08/09/09 06:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Quote:
The suspension geometry tech hasn't changed. Bump steer, scrub radius, camber change, roll center, roll center change, caster change, anti dive... Same now and same then.
...These are good issues/topic/questions to bring to discussion.
But there are trade offs with each design, for example the is not as much camber gain with the alterkation. Not that everyone believes you need so much. Plus wheel offset is limited.
Then again with the XV I believe you are limited to 18" and above for wheels as the spindle height (I believe that is the limiting factor for them) prevents anything smaller.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: HealthServices]
#432455
08/09/09 07:09 PM
08/09/09 07:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
But there are trade offs with each design, for example the is not as much camber gain with the alterkation. Not that everyone believes you need so much. Plus wheel offset is limited.
Not as much camber gain as what? Does he publish a comparison?
Quote:
Then again with the XV I believe you are limited to 18" and above for wheels as the spindle height (I believe that is the limiting factor for them) prevents anything smaller.
Theres alway compromises with this suspension stuff. And there are often two or more different ways to get to the same place.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: autoxcuda]
#432458
08/09/09 07:33 PM
08/09/09 07:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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That's also the problem with having $400 per shock too. Having all that adjustment does a person no good if they do not know how to set it up.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: domingo]
#432460
08/10/09 08:32 PM
08/10/09 08:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336 Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
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Quote:
Hi!
I have been looking and the Alterktion front end kit and also they new rear suspension kit with triangulated 4 bars and coil overs.
I want o build a modern day musclecar with a viper drivetrain.
I was wondering if the front and rear Alterktion suspension and steering will make an old musclecar like an an E body or 68-69 Charger handle real good like a newer car.
Or will handling be just marginally improved over stock?
I would plan on doing some majour unibody stffening, maybe even a full cage, and the front and rear alterktion kit plus some real good brakes and 17" o 18" wheels with some serious tires.
I dont want to spend a ton on suspoension mods, a 500 hp modern drivertain, a 6 speed....and end up having thrown a lot of money on a car that looks cool but handles like a bulldozer.
If that will be the case, Id rather just keep it old school, which is cool as well.....and just get a newer car like a 2010 Camaro, Newer Challenger, or a vette.
I wonder how an old E body with all the tricks would stand against a 2009 Challenger.
Opinions????
If you want to retain a stock look and get the positive caster back for your car. We just developed an adjustable strut rod that you can install in about an hour that will do both. Here is some info:
NEW FOR MOPARS – Developed by DIXIE RESTORATION PARTS
ADJUSTABLE STRUT RODS FOR A, B, & E, BODIES
“ GET YOUR CASTER BACK”
OVER ONE INCH OF ADJUSTMENT TO GET BACK THE CASTER LOST BY INSTALLING POLYGRAPHITE OR POLYURETHANE ON SOME APPLICATIONS.
“BENEFITS”
* “NEW” MADE FROM VERY HIGH STRENGTH ¾ INCH MATERIAL * UP TO 5 TIMES STRONGER THAN STOCK RODS * MADE TO PERCISION SPECS., FOR STOCK LOOK AND FIT “ JUST LIKE FACTORY RODS” * NO NEED FOR OFFSET UPPER CONTROL ARM BUSHINGS * NO NEED TO BUY EXPENSIVE AFTER MARKET ARMS WITH HIEMS ENDS * EASY TO INSTALL * MADE IN THE USA BY CERTIFIED CAR NUTS TO ENSURE HIGH QUALITY
For you guys running larger than stock wheel tire combos, the forces exerted on your suspension during cornering is much greater with larger tires/wheels than the stock strut rods were designed for. These improved rods will easily handle those forces and allow for a more stable car at high speeds if you desire to adjust it as such.
If you want more info, call us or email us and we'll be glad to help. We sold out of all the ones we brought to both Carlisle and the Nats. You can use any brand bushing you want.
Thanks, Randy
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: Dixie]
#432461
08/11/09 04:05 AM
08/11/09 04:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Many of those claims you make are off base. Adjustable strut rods with bushings ARE a nice way to add some extra adjustment to your car for alignment. There have been others that offer adjustable strut rods. Yours are not the first. The stock forged strut rods have been fine strength-wise and proven in many cars that develop high cornering forces. Including dedicated track cars. Tim W with 275 wide sticky race tires has not broken or bent a stock strut rod. You might if you hit something you shouldn’t have. The strut rods takes most of the forces from braking along with the upper control arm. Not much side load goes through the strut arm. And adjustable strut rod is nice for fine tuning alignment. But relying on an adjustable lower control for all your caster adjustment could add to other issues. Shortening the strut rod forward reduces the clearance between the tire to front lower wheelwell. This is the area most all older mopar run into tire rubbing in the front. If you shorten the strut rod 1", the tire clearance will be reduced at least 1/2". A litte more than 1/2" because the axle centerline is a little closer to the lower ball joint (LBJ) than the upper ball joint (UBJ). When you use offset bushings or a tubular upper control arm made to add caster the UBJ moves back and actually increases tire clearance. Also shortening the strut rod too much will twist the LCA bushings. The rubber can take more misalignmen, but the polyurethane LCA bushing is just a plain bearing. If you pull the LCA forward too much with an adjustable strut rod you will twist on the polyurethane LCA bushing. Might oblong the bushing. Quote:
If you want to retain a stock look and get the positive caster back for your car. We just developed an adjustable strut rod that you can install in about an hour that will do both. Here is some info:
NEW FOR MOPARS – Developed by DIXIE RESTORATION PARTS
ADJUSTABLE STRUT RODS FOR A, B, & E, BODIES
“ GET YOUR CASTER BACK”
OVER ONE INCH OF ADJUSTMENT TO GET BACK THE CASTER LOST BY INSTALLING POLYGRAPHITE OR POLYURETHANE ON SOME APPLICATIONS.
“BENEFITS”
* “NEW” MADE FROM VERY HIGH STRENGTH ¾ INCH MATERIAL * UP TO 5 TIMES STRONGER THAN STOCK RODS * MADE TO PERCISION SPECS., FOR STOCK LOOK AND FIT “ JUST LIKE FACTORY RODS” * NO NEED FOR OFFSET UPPER CONTROL ARM BUSHINGS * NO NEED TO BUY EXPENSIVE AFTER MARKET ARMS WITH HIEMS ENDS * EASY TO INSTALL * MADE IN THE USA BY CERTIFIED CAR NUTS TO ENSURE HIGH QUALITY
For you guys running larger than stock wheel tire combos, the forces exerted on your suspension during cornering is much greater with larger tires/wheels than the stock strut rods were designed for. These improved rods will easily handle those forces and allow for a more stable car at high speeds if you desire to adjust it as such.
If you want more info, call us or email us and we'll be glad to help. We sold out of all the ones we brought to both Carlisle and the Nats. You can use any brand bushing you want.
Thanks, Randy
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: autoxcuda]
#432462
08/11/09 10:40 AM
08/11/09 10:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
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Quote:
Yours are not the first.
Alot of the Australian Mopars came that way factory actually.....
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: autoxcuda]
#432463
08/11/09 07:54 PM
08/11/09 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336 Ball Ground, Georgia
Dixie
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,336
Ball Ground, Georgia
|
Quote:
Many of those claims you make are off base.
Adjustable strut rods with bushings ARE a nice way to add some extra adjustment to your car for alignment.
There have been others that offer adjustable strut rods. Yours are not the first.
The stock forged strut rods have been fine strength-wise and proven in many cars that develop high cornering forces. Including dedicated track cars. Tim W with 275 wide sticky race tires has not broken or bent a stock strut rod. You might if you hit something you shouldn’t have.
The strut rods takes most of the forces from braking along with the upper control arm. Not much side load goes through the strut arm.
And adjustable strut rod is nice for fine tuning alignment. But relying on an adjustable lower control for all your caster adjustment could add to other issues.
Shortening the strut rod forward reduces the clearance between the tire to front lower wheelwell. This is the area most all older mopar run into tire rubbing in the front. If you shorten the strut rod 1", the tire clearance will be reduced at least 1/2". A litte more than 1/2" because the axle centerline is a little closer to the lower ball joint (LBJ) than the upper ball joint (UBJ).
When you use offset bushings or a tubular upper control arm made to add caster the UBJ moves back and actually increases tire clearance.
Also shortening the strut rod too much will twist the LCA bushings. The rubber can take more misalignmen, but the polyurethane LCA bushing is just a plain bearing. If you pull the LCA forward too much with an adjustable strut rod you will twist on the polyurethane LCA bushing. Might oblong the bushing.
Quote:
If you want to retain a stock look and get the positive caster back for your car. We just developed an adjustable strut rod that you can install in about an hour that will do both. Here is some info:
NEW FOR MOPARS – Developed by DIXIE RESTORATION PARTS
ADJUSTABLE STRUT RODS FOR A, B, & E, BODIES
“ GET YOUR CASTER BACK”
OVER ONE INCH OF ADJUSTMENT TO GET BACK THE CASTER LOST BY INSTALLING POLYGRAPHITE OR POLYURETHANE ON SOME APPLICATIONS.
“BENEFITS”
* “NEW” MADE FROM VERY HIGH STRENGTH ¾ INCH MATERIAL * UP TO 5 TIMES STRONGER THAN STOCK RODS * MADE TO PERCISION SPECS., FOR STOCK LOOK AND FIT “ JUST LIKE FACTORY RODS” * NO NEED FOR OFFSET UPPER CONTROL ARM BUSHINGS * NO NEED TO BUY EXPENSIVE AFTER MARKET ARMS WITH HIEMS ENDS * EASY TO INSTALL * MADE IN THE USA BY CERTIFIED CAR NUTS TO ENSURE HIGH QUALITY
For you guys running larger than stock wheel tire combos, the forces exerted on your suspension during cornering is much greater with larger tires/wheels than the stock strut rods were designed for. These improved rods will easily handle those forces and allow for a more stable car at high speeds if you desire to adjust it as such.
If you want more info, call us or email us and we'll be glad to help. We sold out of all the ones we brought to both Carlisle and the Nats. You can use any brand bushing you want.
Thanks, Randy
Sorry for any confusion on my post. I responded to Domingo's original post about a low buck alternative to improve handling. If money is not an object, XV or Alterkation are good products.
We understand that we are not the first to offer adjustable strut rods. Nor did we claim to be. Other companies offer this product at various prices. We feel ours are of a higher quality than most, and are more stock in appearance than the others.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Thanks, Randy
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#432465
08/11/09 10:45 PM
08/11/09 10:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,672 Lima, Peru
domingo
OP
EL Master
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OP
EL Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,672
Lima, Peru
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Quote:
How much does a viper engine weigh compared to a 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi anyway? I know you want the viper drivetrain but I'm curious as to how much weight it puts over the nose compared to the other modern alternatives.
A 3rd Gen Viper engine puts out 505 HP in stock form and being naturally aspirated...plus I can get a salvage one with a 6 speed for a reasonable amount. They weigh about 500 pounds.
A 5,7 or 6,1 Hemi weighs around 485 lbs.
I would prefer going with a much cooler and more exotic engine like the one on the viper. Plus the t56 6 speed comes attahced already!
I would definatly set the viper engine back though and I would cut the firewall in order to keep from mounting it with too much overhang over the front axle.
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: domingo]
#432466
08/12/09 12:04 AM
08/12/09 12:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,358 Berwyn, IL
challenger70
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,358
Berwyn, IL
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Quote:
I would prefer going with a much cooler and more exotic engine like the one on the viper. Plus the t56 6 speed comes attahced already!
way cooler
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: challenger70]
#432467
08/12/09 01:24 PM
08/12/09 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 102 Virginia
MACDiesel
member
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member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
Virginia
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With all that debate between the XV & RMS setups, nobody mentioned the MagnumForce version. Is anyone using it? Is it a viable contender with the other two or is it junk?
-1967 Belvedere II 440/4speed
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Re: Will an alterktion kit make a muscle car handle???
[Re: MACDiesel]
#432468
08/12/09 01:41 PM
08/12/09 01:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826 NY usa
540challenger
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
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Quote:
With all that debate between the XV & RMS setups, nobody mentioned the MagnumForce version. Is anyone using it? Is it a viable contender with the other two or is it junk?
The magnum force version puts the coil-overs in the shock towers" the other 2 have the bracket built into the k-frame. They give you some parts to reinforce the shock towers but IMO it is a lot of stress on that location. A lighten drag car no problem but a full weight street car not to good of an idea.
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