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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dart_73_br]
#345217
06/23/09 11:10 AM
06/23/09 11:10 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Yeah, what do you suggest for a E85 combo and just strip usage.
With E-85 it would be easy. You can run much more
compression, I run 14.1:1
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dart_73_br]
#345218
06/23/09 11:17 AM
06/23/09 11:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
emarine01
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
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Hey another point on 600hp small blocks, Dram brought it up before , What do you guys think of 600 ponies on a la block? or any factory production block? My delima is we built shooting for 650 with w5s and I think we came real close, Even with a light crank , bme alu rods, light pistons, studs with steel main caps and good wall thickness we chose to back down the power to around 600 for race only, I think there is a point of no return on small block builds and the block and part choice come in around 600hp, something to think about for a street rig
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: emarine01]
#345219
06/23/09 11:52 AM
06/23/09 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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I've built several that have made over 700 NA on pump 92, but those are'nt Edelbrock head motors you're going to go drive 80 miles at a clip to a car show etc with.
The Last 416 INDY motor I did on pump gas made 680 with a roller.
Last Edelbrock head real "street/daily driver" type motor I did was a 408 with Stage 2 E heads & a mild 250 @ .050" Hydraulic roller with Edelbrock EFI....that is probably only a 450 HP motor...but will run mid 11's in an E body & be able to drive cross country.
600 With Ported E heads is certainly possible especially on a normal dyno, but will require alot of camshaft to do it. ie. it won't be very street friendly, hard on parts, & require a ton of converter to work.......We just made 610HP on Rider's stingy pump with an unported 1977 W2 head last week @ 367 inches.... all it takes is lot's 'O Cam (& RPM in that one's case)
But I think better question to be asking is how much car weight & how fast you want it to go, dyno #'s are just #'s.....it's a tuning tool, not a definitive # maker. I talk to guys all the time, that tell me they want to do a "600HP motor"..... & then I come to find out they have a typical 3200-3300 lb A body & would be plenty happy running Mid 11's with it..... Well it takes About 450 HP or less (depending on car & overall chassis combo) to do that..... so I always try to get them away from asking for raw power #'s. & get down to what really matters.
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: emarine01]
#345220
06/23/09 11:55 AM
06/23/09 11:55 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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I agree with the possibility. But a street car that rarely races? That means idile time, and age on the lifters and spring, not to mention maxing out the stock block even with the mods. I would be looking for an aftermarket block with either W2s or the Indy -1s. I think 550 is pretty easy to reach and be streetable. But the next level will require more because of the concessions made to keep it alive and running pump fuel. You're not talking a cast crank and ported Edelbrocks anymore.
The next question is... Why 600? Instead of racing cruise night figures, how fast do you ned to go to beat the Mustang?
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: moper]
#345221
06/23/09 02:39 PM
06/23/09 02:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,349
warfordsburg, PA
dirt
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,349
warfordsburg, PA
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ok here is the better question then
what would i need to do to get in the low 11's with the 340? thats what it would take to catch the mustang.
1970 dodge dart. quarter tubbed. 3.91 gears (can change this ,i have several different sets 3.55, 4.56 ,4.30) 4-speed, about 3300 lbs
the motor is a .060 over 340, forged crank, forged 10.5-1 pistons, figured 10.2-1 with the 65 cc edelbrock rpm heads on it, M1 single plane intake, 750 holley.
i need a cam and headers yet ,here is the cam i was looking at from hughes.
thanks for any advice on this.
kenny
Flat Tappet Hydraulic
. Hotter Street performance and strip: HP exhaust or headers, performance intake 3.70:1 gears, 4 bbl or 3x2, Idles so you know its in there. HP ported Stage I heads 160psi suggested cylinder pressure 2800rpm stall. Very hot daily driver.
VIEW OUR CAMSHAFT F.A.Q. PAGE.
Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .524"
.540"
Intake Valve Lift 1.6
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .558"
.576"
Intake Duration at .050"
Exhaust Duration at .050" 228°
232°
Lobe Separation Angle 110
Intake Opening at .050"
Exhaust Opening at .050" 7º BTC
41° BBC
Intake Closing at .050"
Exhaust Closing at .050" 49° ABC
3° ATC
Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI 165
Sweet Spot RPM 2300 - 5700
Note: With any hydraulic camshaft larger than our 1523AL/BL grind, we strongly encourage using adjustable rocker arms. The stock stamped rockers do not have a true 1.5:1 ratio. They will check somewhere between 1.38:1 and 1.45:1 ratio. This will yield a loss of lift (up to .045"), 2°/3° duration loss and also slow the rate-of-lift resulting in a possible 25HP loss. Any camshaft using double valve springs must use adjustable rocker arms to prevent damage when the stock rocker arms break. All camshafts are supplied without keys. Specify part number 7542 when ordering if you need a new cam key. See the Camshaft Accessory page for more information
Power Ranges: These are the "sweet spot" in the power range. Generally we suggest shifting at 300-500 RPM above the "sweet spot" for the best ETÂ’s.
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345225
06/23/09 03:00 PM
06/23/09 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dartman75
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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You seem to have a good chassis setup for low 11's. From where you're at, port those heads and put a CAM about 10 degrees bigger than the hughes grind you've listed. Keeping the same compression and bottom end, you're probably there. Be careful porting the heads to make sure you keep or raise your compression. If after that you will want to spend the bit extra on stroker kit for your motor, you will be able to run that CAM on the streets very nicely. I'm quite fond of my roller COMP XR286R grind (248@0.050 and 615 lift on 1.6's) that I got with COMPS new roller lifter through Brian/Ou812. I also have a very nice scott brown solid that came out of my first build with less than 1000 miles on it. Spec's 244/256 and 0.573/0.581 lift on 1.6 rockers if I recally. That CAM has GREAT bottom end and pulled very hard to 6500. The hughes grind you're after is just too mild to really be much more than a reasonable street CAM and a lousy strip CAM. Both my old and current CAM will pull 10" of vacuum or more idling at just 700-800 RPM so they are quite streetable, ran vacuum brakes and eht whole 10 yeards. I idle the 386 as low as 600 on a cold start and it will not die on me.
As for head porting, Ryan Jonhson did mine and If you can afford to part with about a grand, you will love the results.
Greg
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: S/ST 3040]
#345227
06/23/09 05:01 PM
06/23/09 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 465
Oconomowoc, WI.
Cudahlr
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 465
Oconomowoc, WI.
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Low 11's=
My combo is a 360 with stock crank and stock rods all mag checked for cracks, Eddy heads with 57cc chambers flowing in the 285ish range, 11.7-1 comp, M-1 single plane intake with a 2" super sucker spacer, holly 950 carb, The cam is only .575 lift with 1.6 rockers, Smith brothers pushrods, TTI. step headers, 9.5" dynamic converter, 727 trans and 4.10 rear gears. In a 68 barracuda roughly 3400 pounds with me in it.
My best = 11.24 @ 121 mph
Made 421 horsepower at the rear wheels.
1968 Barracuda 360/727 11.20 @ 121 mph 421 rwhp
1985 Harley Sportster Bobber
2006 Ram 2500 sport - The Cudahlr
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345228
06/23/09 05:05 PM
06/23/09 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
yes its still the stock stroke. i was thinking about a stroker but would rather not spend the cash if i can avoid it. may be i am asking to much?
You are asking alot, with a stock stroke you have to
be willing to SPIN it and thats not happening with a
hyl cam, you would need more of everything, more head
flow more carb, more gear and a lighter car. I made
620 on a 395ci W-2 and it wasnt all that much, could
have had more cam but I didnt want to change springs
very often(roller cam)
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: RyanJ]
#345229
06/23/09 05:58 PM
06/23/09 05:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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Quote:
I've built several that have made over 700 NA on pump 92, but those are'nt Edelbrock head motors you're going to go drive 80 miles at a clip to a car show etc with.
The Last 416 INDY motor I did on pump gas made 680 with a roller.
Last Edelbrock head real "street/daily driver" type motor I did was a 408 with Stage 2 E heads & a mild 250 @ .050" Hydraulic roller with Edelbrock EFI....that is probably only a 450 HP motor...but will run mid 11's in an E body & be able to drive cross country.
600 With Ported E heads is certainly possible especially on a normal dyno, but will require alot of camshaft to do it. ie. it won't be very street friendly, hard on parts, & require a ton of converter to work.......We just made 610HP on Rider's stingy pump with an unported 1977 W2 head last week @ 367 inches.... all it takes is lot's 'O Cam (& RPM in that one's case)
But I think better question to be asking is how much car weight & how fast you want it to go, dyno #'s are just #'s.....it's a tuning tool, not a definitive # maker. I talk to guys all the time, that tell me they want to do a "600HP motor"..... & then I come to find out they have a typical 3200-3300 lb A body & would be plenty happy running Mid 11's with it..... Well it takes About 450 HP or less (depending on car & overall chassis combo) to do that..... so I always try to get them away from asking for raw power #'s. & get down to what really matters.
 I starting buying parts & talking to other people and kind of got carried away with my build. I originally bought a car that was going mid to low 11s & the chassis,convert,ect were sorted out pretty well. This car was driven on the street and all I really wanted to do was duplicate that performance with a little more dependability. The previous owner grenaded the motor, that is all I had to add to the combo. Now it needs a converter upgrade,a dana rear & probably suspension & brakes. Just my 
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: Cudahlr]
#345230
06/23/09 06:07 PM
06/23/09 06:07 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S/ST 3040
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
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Quote:
Low 11's=
My combo is a 360 with stock crank and stock rods all mag checked for cracks, Eddy heads with 57cc chambers flowing in the 285ish range, 11.7-1 comp, M-1 single plane intake with a 2" super sucker spacer, holly 950 carb, The cam is only .575 lift with 1.6 rockers, Smith brothers pushrods, TTI. step headers, 9.5" dynamic converter, 727 trans and 4.10 rear gears. In a 68 barracuda roughly 3400 pounds with me in it.
My best = 11.24 @ 121 mph
Made 421 horsepower at the rear wheels.
OK, now knock .270" of stroke out of that and try it again with a 9.5" converter and 4.10 gears.
I never said it was impossible.
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345231
06/23/09 10:27 PM
06/23/09 10:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
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Quote:
ok here is the better question then
what would i need to do to get in the low 11's with the 340? thats what it would take to catch the mustang.
My 3300# 340 Dart went 7.24 in the 1/8 with worn out valve springs. It's a .030 over with Ross ft pistons, 11.2-1, Eagle I beam rods, stock steel crank balanced, Hughes 3742 hydraulic cam, 1.6 Hughes rockers, 55cc Edelbrocks that flow 290s, Weiand X-Celerator with a Quick Fuel Q-750, 727, 4400 9.5" converter and 4.30 gears. I shifted it at 6200, I tried up to 6900 with no et change.
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345234
06/24/09 01:24 PM
06/24/09 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Dartman75
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Compression depends on your altitude, CAM selection and other things like fuel ratio, head quench and ignition timing. I live at 2300ft altitude and regularily DA is over 3000 so I can get away with 10.8 even on a hot day, with 91 in the tank (equivalent of US's 93 I'm told). Eddie heads, 0 decked flat top piston and a 0.39 gasket makes for a nice tight quench area. Cranking compression is 165 (camshafts in the 244/256 (old) and 248/254(new) ranges). I think guys used to say the limit for cranking compression was in the range 150-170 range, though some guys run as much as 190 or even a touch more but that will be near the detonation point on hotter days. I know there are a few posts on here with guys in the 205 and 210 range that have had detonation problems on pump gas on even pretty mild motors but can't recall if they were iron or alum heads. If you select your CAM to lower that cranking compression you'll get away with more compression, though then you have to worry about your dynamic compression at higher RPMs and make sure you don't over advance the ignition more than neccessary. If somehow you get pinging or detonation on the build you choose, there are some ways to control that after that fact. Water injection or water/meth injection, retarding CAM timing to bleed low end compression off. There are reverse water flow pumps for the big blocks and might be something for the small blocks as well. Or pop the head and put athicker gasket in. Things like that. But hopefully you do the homework up front so you don't have to take measures like that.
I don't know your elevation but You can probalby get away with low to mid 10.0 to 10.3 maybe 10.5 even at sea level on a similar CAM to mine.
Greg
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Re: smallblock stroker, 600 HP out of question? on pump gas
[Re: dirt]
#345235
06/24/09 06:45 PM
06/24/09 06:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
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Quote:
i have had my edelbrock heads about 9 years now and dont think i remember a 55cc head? is that something that they came out with later or did you mill them?
Mine have been milled, also it ran on pump 93  .
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stamp steel rockers 
