Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: A/MP]
#3266288
10/24/24 09:16 PM
10/24/24 09:16 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715 Capital of Narcissism
jcc
No soup for you!!!
|
No soup for you!!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715
Capital of Narcissism
|
Locking up indicates you have too much stopping power, either by design, driver over braking, or stopping conditions, which are numerous and variable. However IMO, only 5%? have the talent to modulate brake pressure enough to take advantage of the better modulation discs can offer, in a perfectly balanced brake system for the situation at hand. You have not yet shared a reason to justify a disc application. And, tires stop the car, brakes stop the wheels.
"absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence of effect."
|
|
|
Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: Sniper]
#3266347
10/25/24 10:45 AM
10/25/24 10:45 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,606 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,606
A collage of whims
|
There are variables: had a '73 Dart street car (disc/drum) that would tend to lock rear before front if I hammered the pedal - more than the other 7-8 A bodies I've owned. Drag car would lock fronts before rears - but that had frontrunners & 13x31 slicks, 4 wheel drums (avatar). Current Valiant (4 discs) doesn't seem to lock anything yet but haven't "pushed" it yet.
Rear brakes do about 30% of the work stopping wheels/tires, tires are the interface @ the road surface. The urge for rear discs seems largely unnecessary - almost a fashion statement - unless one is using the brakes hard & often, like a road course car. FWIW, my Dually - disc/drum, when loaded & towing - stops very well - and yes, different animal. My old Pathfinder on the other hand - 4WDB - could lock all 4. My Road Runners - one disc front, other all drums - are pretty equal, though I don't drive 'em like I do my Mustang (4WDB)... My point is that there are a lot of variables, as well as environments/usages, so a blanket statement isn't necessarily accurate.
|
|
|
Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: A/MP]
#3298870
04/04/25 01:41 PM
04/04/25 01:41 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,356 West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,356
West Coast, USA
|
Lots of good info has been posted in response to your post. One thing I've found with both my A & E Bodies is that 90%+ of the time it locks up from the initial shock of an expedited brake application. By cushioning that sudden pressure spike, a lot of rear brake lock up's can be minimized. Look into adding one of these to your rear line. It's used by a lot of dirt and asphalt racers to dramatically reduce the rear lock up due to a sudden strong brake input. https://www.larsenracingproducts.com/products/lock-resistant-brake-system-lbs.html
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(Stock drivetrain in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's & EFI. 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible Paxton Boosted 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 3.91's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
|
|
|
Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: jbc426]
#3299088
04/06/25 12:57 AM
04/06/25 12:57 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715 Capital of Narcissism
jcc
No soup for you!!!
|
No soup for you!!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715
Capital of Narcissism
|
"By cushioning that sudden pressure spike, a lot of rear brake lock up's can be minimized."
There is no mechanical basis for a "brake pressure spike", unless the driver releases foot pressure during application to create one, or one has a cold temp grippy brake compound that loses grip quickly after initial brake hit, creating a brake grip spike, which would seem to be a rather dangerous choice. Actually, the rear brakes are most useful/effective (unless aero rear lift is present) upon initial application, and fairly quickly diminishes as weight transfers forward, front suspension compresses, and whatever rear downforce is at play goes away as speed lowers. A rear pressure delay seems to be the opposite of what is needed for maximum braking. Actually, one of the small advantages of rear disc over drums is, discs apply braking force and respond mechanically faster.
Based on above, my road racing instructors promoted/taught during on track straight line braking the need for being very aggressive initially with braking and gently rolling off brakes as car slowed and as any turning began. Which somehow intuitively seems wrong as "smoothness" is often the holy grail in HP driving, but not for straight-line braking. Usually, front onset brake lockup was preferred, and rear initial lockup was due to improper balance issues for any number of reasons
Last edited by jcc; 04/06/25 11:37 AM.
"absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence of effect."
|
|
|
Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: jcc]
#3299151
04/06/25 12:30 PM
04/06/25 12:30 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,356 West Coast, USA
jbc426
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,356
West Coast, USA
|
"By cushioning that sudden pressure spike, a lot of rear brake lock up's can be minimized."
There is no mechanical basis for a "brake pressure spike", unless the driver releases foot pressure during application to create one, or one has a cold temp grippy brake compound that loses grip quickly after initial brake hit, creating a brake grip spike, which would seem to be a rather dangerous choice. Actually, the rear brakes are most useful/effective (unless aero rear lift is present) upon initial application, and fairly quickly diminishes as weight transfers forward, front suspension compresses, and whatever rear downforce is at play goes away as speed lowers. A rear pressure delay seems to be the opposite of what is needed for maximum braking. Actually, one of the small advantages of rear disc over drums is, discs apply braking force and respond mechanically faster.
Based on above, my road racing instructors promoted/taught during on track straight line braking the need for being very aggressive initially with braking and gently rolling off brakes as car slowed and as any turning began. Which somehow intuitively seems wrong as "smoothness" is often the holy grail in HP driving, but not for straight-line braking. Usually, front onset brake lockup was preferred, and rear initial lockup was due to improper balance issues for any number of reasons Your NASCAR Team experience and the information you missed from your driving instructors is showing, but they can't fill a cup that is already full. While some of the information in your post is accurate, your initial statement is short sighted and is missing the point. Reference this quote from the manufacturer. . "Lock Resistant Brake System (LBS) The LBS was originally developed for the professional race teams in NASCAR to prevent a loose or over steer condition under heavy loads. It assures the front tires slip first by dampening the pressure to the rear brakes. With LBS the rear tires will accept nearly twice as much braking force without locking up. The LBS installs easily in the rear brake line and utilizes a unique dampening valve that acts as a shock absorber to sense and dampen the sharp spike in-line pressure when the brakes are applied suddenly. The LBS improves the brake performance on any race car or truck. The LRP LBS doesn't reduce rear brake pressure, it dampens and delays it. It prevents rear brake lock-up without degrading rear brake performance and overloading the front brakes."
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(Stock drivetrain in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's & EFI. 1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible Paxton Boosted 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 3.91's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
|
|
|
Re: LESS LOCK UP WITH REAR DISCS?
[Re: jbc426]
#3299155
04/06/25 12:45 PM
04/06/25 12:45 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715 Capital of Narcissism
jcc
No soup for you!!!
|
No soup for you!!!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,715
Capital of Narcissism
|
"By cushioning that sudden pressure spike, a lot of rear brake lock up's can be minimized."
There is no mechanical basis for a "brake pressure spike", unless the driver releases foot pressure during application to create one, or one has a cold temp grippy brake compound that loses grip quickly after initial brake hit, creating a brake grip spike, which would seem to be a rather dangerous choice. Actually, the rear brakes are most useful/effective (unless aero rear lift is present) upon initial application, and fairly quickly diminishes as weight transfers forward, front suspension compresses, and whatever rear downforce is at play goes away as speed lowers. A rear pressure delay seems to be the opposite of what is needed for maximum braking. Actually, one of the small advantages of rear disc over drums is, discs apply braking force and respond mechanically faster.
Based on above, my road racing instructors promoted/taught during on track straight line braking the need for being very aggressive initially with braking and gently rolling off brakes as car slowed and as any turning began. Which somehow intuitively seems wrong as "smoothness" is often the holy grail in HP driving, but not for straight-line braking. Usually, front onset brake lockup was preferred, and rear initial lockup was due to improper balance issues for any number of reasons Your NASCAR Team experience and the information you missed from your driving instructors is showing, but they can't fill a cup that is already full. While some of the information in your post is accurate, your initial statement is short sighted and is missing the point. Reference this quote from the manufacturer. . "Lock Resistant Brake System (LBS) The LBS was originally developed for the professional race teams in NASCAR to prevent a loose or over steer condition under heavy loads. It assures the front tires slip first by dampening the pressure to the rear brakes. With LBS the rear tires will accept nearly twice as much braking force without locking up.
The LBS installs easily in the rear brake line and utilizes a unique dampening valve that acts as a shock absorber to sense and dampen the sharp spike in-line pressure when the brakes are applied suddenly. The LBS improves the brake performance on any race car or truck. The LRP LBS doesn't reduce rear brake pressure, it dampens and delays it. It prevents rear brake lock-up without degrading rear brake performance and overloading the front brakes." That/those statements are an oxymoron. You obviously can't see that. I might accept the item mentioned improves driver braking performance due to lack of driver talent/skill/fatigue/etc, by REDUCING/DELAYING rear braking contribution, but it does not improve braking performance in any way, actually it does the opposite. You also neglected to explain how this "spike" is any cause for concern, if it really exists in the first place It's a driver aid, for a driver that needs it, with a braking performance cost, pure and simple. This video addresses hydraulic "spikes" plainly, nearly none of which is present with rear brake automotive systems with 3/16" steel lines under 12' of length with static pressures over 500psi, all of which I believe is fairly self-evident, but am glad to explain further if needed. https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...17E1D1410BBDACE97020EF77F6&FORM=VIRE
"absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence of effect."
|
|
|
|
|